If......

[MarkSFC]

we were starting the season in the NPC.....how do you think our best starting eleven looks against the rest?

 

Ignoring the need to build a squad how good is the "team"??

[Saint Garrett]

I don't think we'd set the world alight but I don't think we'd struggle, although a lack of pace is there for everyone to see. We might run out of idea's and not have a plan B. I think we have a first XI equal or better than quite a few NPC teams.

[MarkSFC]

That's about my thinking which is why I posed the question. If Pardew is building now to challenge in the Championship there could be 2 or 3 exciting signings! Otherwise next summer will be more costly!

[chrisobee]

Oh, it's now the n power championship, how confusing. Couldn't possibly answer with any real certainty but Davis, Dickson, Richardson, Fonte, Jaidi ( maybe), Harding, Morgan, Lallana, Puncheon, Lambert, possibly Bernard and certainly a fit Connolly could play at that level. Which leads me to the same conclusion I came to on another thread, we need one very good CM and one very good striker, otherwise unless someone really good becomes available we need to let the likes of Martin and Oxlade- Chamberlain take their chance if injuries hit. No way in a million years will we be able to buy our way into the PL and hope to stay there otherwise in my opinion. Home grown talent is essential, Man Utd prove that point, Arsenal as well ( though more foreign grown talent but young players nonetheless) though they do have Gibbs and of course Theo. I don't think it is a coincidence that Liverpool are struggling, where are their young players ?

[MINIBARCELONASAINT]

Although we are no longer a selling club (you'd hope) young players are going to be of value for two reasons.

 

1. We will get a few brilliant youngsters that will pull through into the 1st team a la Scholes, Beckham, Butt, Brown, Neville, Neville and Giggs @ 'Utd

 

but

 

2. We will also get income from our young players that aren't good enough, or are wasted at us @ a la Rossi (utd) Carson (l'pool) .

 

The point made by chrisobee is very good. The last players to really pull through from Liverpool's youth system was Gerrard and Carragher and Owen. All around 28-31 now.

 

Although Arsenal are seen as the team of youth by alot not many from their youth actually come through do they? Wenger very much uses the Carling Cup, (occasionally the FA Cup) as a selling window for his young players.

 

Some come through, Clichy, Denilson and Diaby. But even they were bought at the age of 18. None of their strongest XI came from their own youth system except maybe Bendtner/Vela. Most are sold to other clubs; Flamini, Lupoli, Owusu Abeyie, Hoyte, Muamba, Larsson and (Aliadere ).

[Turkish]

Although we are no longer a selling club (you'd hope) young players are going to be of value for two reasons.

 

1. We will get a few brilliant youngsters that will pull through into the 1st team a la Scholes, Beckham, Butt, Brown, Neville, Neville and Giggs @ 'Utd

 

but

 

2. We will also get income from our young players that aren't good enough, or are wasted at us @ a la Rossi (utd) Carson (l'pool) .

 

The point made by chrisobee is very good. The last players to really pull through from Liverpool's youth system was Gerrard and Carragher and Owen. All around 28-31 now.

 

Although Arsenal are seen as the team of youth by alot not many from their youth actually come through do they? Wenger very much uses the Carling Cup, (occasionally the FA Cup) as a selling window for his young players.

 

Some come through, Clichy, Denilson and Diaby. But even they were bought at the age of 18. None of their strongest XI came from their own youth system except maybe Bendtner/Vela. Most are sold to other clubs; Flamini, Lupoli, Owusu Abeyie, Hoyte, Muamba, Larsson and (Aliadere ).

 

I think the expression 'a selling club' is ridiculous. Saints are at best an upper midtable premier league club, lets not get ideas above our station here, we will neve play regularly in the champions league, so even at our maximum potential if clubs like Man U, Chelsea etc made bids for our players the player would no doubt want to go as he would, quite rightly, see it as a career progression, look at Wayne Bridge, he couldn't get to Chelsea quick enough and that was a local lad, saints fan and coming off the back of our best season in 20 odd years. Right now if a premier league club came in for any of our players then the most of them would want to go to progress their careers, we may not need to sell but we are in a position to get the best deal for SFC. Regardless of what division we were in the likes of Walcott and Bale would have moved on, maybe not so soon but eventually.

The only clubs that are not 'selling clubs' are the top three or four in Spain, England, Germany and Italy as these are the ones that have the financial muscle and status to attract the very best players in the world. Even then though, Ronaldo was desperate to leave Man Utd for what he saw a better deal, so to a certain extent every club is 'a selling club' as players hold all the power these days and if one wants to leave all you can do is get the best deal for the club.

[NickG]

I also hate the term selling club.

 

Could Man U afford to keep Ronaldo?

 

Selling club is used as a derogoratory term, in reality there is a ladder with probably two non-selling clubs and the rest somewhere below

[Doctoroncall]

I think the expression 'a selling club' is ridiculous. Saints are at best an upper midtable premier league club, lets not get ideas above our station here, we will never play regularly in the champions league, so even at our maximum potential if clubs like Man U, Chelsea etc made bids for our players the player would no doubt want to go as he would, quite rightly, see it as a career progression, look at Wayne Bridge, he couldn't get to Chelsea quick enough and that was a local lad, saints fan and coming off the back of our best season in 20 odd years. Right now if a premier league club came in for any of our players then the most of them would want to go to progress their careers, we may not need to sell but we are in a position to get the best deal for SFC. Regardless of what division we were in the likes of Walcott and Bale would have moved on, maybe not so soon but eventually.

The only clubs that are not 'selling clubs' are the top three or four in Spain, England, Germany and Italy as these are the ones that have the financial muscle and status to attract the very best players in the world. Even then though, Ronaldo was desperate to leave Man Utd for what he saw a better deal, so to a certain extent every club is 'a selling club' as players hold all the power these days and if one wants to leave all you can do is get the best deal for the club.

 

... did I miss a smiley?

[MINIBARCELONASAINT]

I think the expression 'a selling club' is ridiculous. Saints are at best an upper midtable premier league club, lets not get ideas above our station here, we will neve play regularly in the champions league, so even at our maximum potential if clubs like Man U, Chelsea etc made bids for our players the player would no doubt want to go as he would, quite rightly, see it as a career progression, look at Wayne Bridge, he couldn't get to Chelsea quick enough and that was a local lad, saints fan and coming off the back of our best season in 20 odd years. Right now if a premier league club came in for any of our players then the most of them would want to go to progress their careers, we may not need to sell but we are in a position to get the best deal for SFC. Regardless of what division we were in the likes of Walcott and Bale would have moved on, maybe not so soon but eventually.

The only clubs that are not 'selling clubs' are the top three or four in Spain, England, Germany and Italy as these are the ones that have the financial muscle and status to attract the very best players in the world. Even then though, Ronaldo was desperate to leave Man Utd for what he saw a better deal, so to a certain extent every club is 'a selling club' as players hold all the power these days and if one wants to leave all you can do is get the best deal for the club.

 

I am pretty sure Cortese said he wanted to be in the big 4 in England when he said he would never settle for mediocrity, midtable in the prem is mediocrity. HTH

[Turkish]

I am pretty sure Cortese said he wanted to be in the big 4 in England when he said he would never settle for mediocrity, midtable in the prem is mediocrity. HTH

 

I agree and it'd be fantasitc if it happened, i just cant ever see it. CAn you, realistically??

[West End Saint]

I don't think the gap between league 1 and the championship is all that great, look at Forest & Liecester they both did well with largely the same teams that got them promoted. Also Swansea, Bristol City & Donny have done ok in the ccc after coming up.

 

I think our 1st 11 would do well however we would need to add to our squad you would like to think we are going to find out sooner rather than later

[Turkish]

I don't think the gap between league 1 and the championship is all that great, look at Forest & Liecester they both did well with largely the same teams that got them promoted. Also Swansea, Bristol City & Donny have done ok in the ccc after coming up.

 

I think our 1st 11 would do well however we would need to add to our squad you would like to think we are going to find out sooner rather than later

 

Forest struggled first season up, but i agree the gap between the top of the L1 and CCC is not that great, i'd expect Leeds & Norwich to finish at least midtable next season, as would we if we went up. Its the gap between being a top 2 CCC club then being a PL club when we will need serious investment.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Mid table side. But potential for better as a few of our players will improve with age...

[Turkish]

Mid table side. But potential for better as a few of our players will improve with age...

 

I'm starting to quite like you, that is the second time i have agreed with you in two days. F*** it, lets be friends, fancy meeting up for a beer tonight?

[MarkSFC]

Moving off my OP slightly the "potential" of a club in the future is going to be largely linked to turnover and profit. Being bank-rolled for the purchase of players will become less and less. Investment from owners for infrastructure like the stadium and training facilities will be the limit. I believe the new rules will limit debt as well. So to me this all puts us in a great position. We have no debt and are developing the training facilities already. Ground development or new build will be the next stage I believe which will be the main key to high level success.

 

The gap will shrink between us and the Man Us of the world but unless we get 75000 a game we will never get to the very top! I think we know Utd are too much of a brand for us to compete but I see no financidl restrictions to being on of the best teams in the Premier League in 4-8 years time and with a sustained level of success following.

 

Until Roman in particular (and Matthew Harding to a lesser degree before him) Chelsea were not a "top 4 club".

 

I believe thru were an hour away from bankruptcy and only his investment has propelled them upwards. If they relied purely on their attendances and other sales ( which they were before him) they would be a mediocre team. Their attendances I think are in the high 30s. We averaged 31/32k in the prem and I am sure 40 is possible if when we get back. Sure sensible pricing required before someone says!!

 

The ONLY way Saints can be a sustainable force is to have a stadium capable of attracting much more than 32k. 45-48 would be sensible with major hospitality options.

 

As the finance of the football world alters over the next decade we will become a real force. I'm sure the team development we see over the next 2-3 years will reflect that ambition.

[benjii]

There are some awful teams who manage to stay in the second division. The season we got relegated Watford were absolutely dire.

 

I saw both league matches against them and they were pathetic. Unfortunately we had amateur coaches and so couldn't defend set pieces properly and only picked up one point against them.

 

The presence of that sort of dire team leads me to think we would certainly not be relegated if we were promoted with the current 11. We would also enter the FA Cup later and not need to play in the JPT so squad depth would also look a bit stronger.

 

As others have said, the difficult part is getting promoted to the top division and then staying up. If there really is a 5-year plan and we go up from the third division in year 2, then years 3 and 4 are absolutely vital as our best talent becomes firmly in the Premier League shop window then as well.

 

If we do make it in to the second division then I would not be surprised if we made one or two genuine marque signings at that point because we would be entering an absolutely critical period. In the third division it's a fairly safe bet that our relative size will see us promoted at some point (so long as we continue to enjoy a great executive management team). In the second division there are more clubs of a similar status and the rewards on offer for promotion are bigger - we wouldn't want to be there long.

Edited 8 July, 2010 by benjii

[up and away]

Moving off my OP slightly the "potential" of a club in the future is going to be largely linked to turnover and profit. Being bank-rolled for the purchase of players will become less and less. Investment from owners for infrastructure like the stadium and training facilities will be the limit. I believe the new rules will limit debt as well. So to me this all puts us in a great position. We have no debt and are developing the training facilities already. Ground development or new build will be the next stage I believe which will be the main key to high level success.

 

The gap will shrink between us and the Man Us of the world but unless we get 75000 a game we will never get to the very top! I think we know Utd are too much of a brand for us to compete but I see no financidl restrictions to being on of the best teams in the Premier League in 4-8 years time and with a sustained level of success following.

 

Until Roman in particular (and Matthew Harding to a lesser degree before him) Chelsea were not a "top 4 club".

 

I believe thru were an hour away from bankruptcy and only his investment has propelled them upwards. If they relied purely on their attendances and other sales ( which they were before him) they would be a mediocre team. Their attendances I think are in the high 30s. We averaged 31/32k in the prem and I am sure 40 is possible if when we get back. Sure sensible pricing required before someone says!!

 

The ONLY way Saints can be a sustainable force is to have a stadium capable of attracting much more than 32k. 45-48 would be sensible with major hospitality options.

 

As the finance of the football world alters over the next decade we will become a real force. I'm sure the team development we see over the next 2-3 years will reflect that ambition.

 

And then I give you Newcastle, massive fanatical 50k+ support, massive investment and they end up with their arses hanging out the back of their pants. There is only one real option for sustainable success, someone who is prepared to bankroll heavy losses with the distinct possibility it will all go pear shaped come the end of the season.

 

We are investing heavily in the youth structure again, but you really need to hold onto that player for about 6-8 years for them to be of value to elevating the team higher before selling. Something I really doubt is practical in this day and age.

[Joensuu]

Agree we would hold our own, and finish in the mid-table region with our current squad. Main problem I can see is a complete lack of pace, without Papa or Antonio (or better) we might find it hard to hit teams on the break.

 

Were I Pardew I would be looking for a young (17-19) right back with bags of potential, a defensive midfielder in their prime (25-28), and a pacy winger with tidy ball control and an accurate cross (preferably one who could play up front if needed), and possibly a backup forward in the Lambert mold. With these four additions I feel we would be challenging for the Championship playoffs.

[MarkSFC]

And then I give you Newcastle, massive fanatical 50k+ support, massive investment and they end up with their arses hanging out the back of their pants. There is only one real option for sustainable success, someone who is prepared to bankroll heavy losses with the distinct possibility it will all go pear shaped come the end of the season.

 

We are investing heavily in the youth structure again, but you really need to hold onto that player for about 6-8 years for them to be of value to elevating the team higher before selling. Something I really doubt is practical in this day and age.

 

Newcastle are a good example but in the future massive debt will not be permitted therefore income based progression will determine player purchases. The "pecking order" will generally remain the same based on size of fanbase but success will be more relevant to the quality of people in the business. I know it is now but limitless funds - man city eg, and chelsea mean that you can take more risks!

 

I remember derby about 20 years ago suddenly had loads of money but messed it up through poor recruitment!

[Turkish]

Newcastle are a good example but in the future massive debt will not be permitted therefore income based progression will determine player purchases. The "pecking order" will generally remain the same based on size of fanbase but success will be more relevant to the quality of people in the business. I know it is now but limitless funds - man city eg, and chelsea mean that you can take more risks!

 

I remember derby about 20 years ago suddenly had loads of money but messed it up through poor recruitment!

 

Blackburn, won the league with their investment, £3.5m for Shearer looks a pittance now mind. Three (?) years later they were relegated.