Exactly 20 years ago. . .

[JackFrost]

The Rwandan Genocide started.

 

After years of ethnic tensions between Hutus and Tutsis it culminated in a 100 day period where 800,000-1.1 million men, women and children were shot,

slowly hacked to death with machetes or burnt alive, based purely on their ethnicity. Extremist Radio stations broadcast that friend should kill friend and neighour should kill neighbour if they were Tutsi or refused to murder a Tutsi.

 

What separates this from the other world atrocities is the sheer speed at which people were killed. To put the above numbers into perspective that's 1 person being killed every 9-10 seconds for 100 days and 100 nights.

 

Here is a rather harrowing (if with a slightly cheesy American gloss) documentary detailing first-hand accounts of the barbarity of the killings, their meticulous planning, the Western World's/UN's abject failure to intervene and stories of heroism including one U.N. peacekeeper continually defying his own orders to save hundreds if not over a thousand lives. It's a bit more of a general overview than the Hotel Rwanda film and is a deep look into just how evil the human mind can be.

 

Very graphic images throughout

 

[View From The Top]

The West stood by and did nothing.

 

No oil? Not interested.

[Barry Sanchez]

We have let Africa rot for fear of re entering there as peace keepers to be labelled by the liberals as a colonial force, the dictators of the continent have laughed at our weakness.

[buctootim]

If you are going to send peacekeeping troops in there has to be a goal - like establishing a strong democratic government that can take things on once the peacekeepers have gone. Reality is that central Africa is riven with with ethnic and religious conflict. Their social development is still at the 'kill the others' level. This is just the latest conflict http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26817382. In that situation wasting British lives for a fight which will just flare up again when the soldiers have left is worse than doing nothing.

[Barry Sanchez]

If you are going to send peacekeeping troops in there has to be a goal - like establishing a strong democratic government that can take things on once the peacekeepers have gone. Reality is that central Africa is riven with with ethnic and religious conflict. Their social development is still at the 'kill the others' level. This is just the latest conflict http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26817382. In that situation wasting British lives for a fight which will just flare up again when the soldiers have left is worse than doing nothing.

 

 

We could solve it of course we could but why? We would have to be offensive and opposed to reactionary so whats the point? There will never be peace in Africa until stoneage tribal affiliations and given up by democratic means, food aid only gives war lords more power as they normally end up distributing it to their own or even destroying it, its white guilt and agenda driven and the ones paying the price are innocent Africans who want to eat and have stability.

 

Political will is low, there would be a small prize for the Countries involoved and its too long term for Governments and the liberal agenda is to have a harvest festival and a singalong for the natives every year or so, its demeaning and as opportunist as you can get, has anyone actually asked an African in Chad, CAF, DRCongo, Somalia, Eritrea and many others after their bellies are full what would they actually like?

[buctootim]

We could solve it of course we could but why?

 

Had you said "there is chance we could solve it if we targeted a tiny section of central Africa and worked intensively on that for 50 years putting in billions of pounds and hundreds of British soldiers lives" I might have agreed with you. After all thats what it took in Northern Ireland.

 

Very occasionally there situations where a government of less corrupt, less repressive arseholes need to propped up short term against military attempts from another group to take over. Sierra Leone about 10 years ago was a good example. Other than that I' rather spend time and money on countries like Kenya, which have a plan and a future.

[Barry Sanchez]

Northern Ireland is very different to Africa and described what you mean, Kenya? What plan and future?

[buctootim]

It is very different. Most people in Northern Ireland were law abiding, the thugs were a minority and the majority were never in danger of being massacred en masse or starving to to death - so you're right - central Africa is much more difficult to resolve.

[Barry Sanchez]

It is very different. Most people in Northern Ireland were law abiding, the thugs were a minority and the majority were never in danger of being massacred en masse or starving to to death - so you're right - central Africa is much more difficult to resolve.

 

Ok why use it as an example if it so different? Anyway tell me how Kenya and their plans?

Edited 6 April, 2014 by Barry Sanchez

[buctootim]

Stop trolling Bazza. Why do you have to revert to ****tishness? You aren't stupid but you behave stupidly.

[Barry Sanchez]

I am not trolling, I am want a discussion and you are avoiding it, Kenya ia probably one of the last places of calm in Africa at the moment so its a very very poor example, Mozambique is a far far better example, we can discuss that if you wish?

[buctootim]

I am not trolling, I am want a discussion and you are avoiding it, Kenya ia probably one of the last places of calm in Africa at the moment so its a very very poor example, Mozambique is a far far better example, we can discuss that if you wish?

 

Its not a poor example because it can be used a beacon of whats possible - an incentive to others to change. There no point in trying to set up usual development levers - schools, farms, businesses, infrastructure etc in areas where the government are excessively corrupt and don't have secure hold over the country.

 

Your approach is simplistic - 'which countries have the greatest need?'. The proper approach is 'which countries have great need and in which we can do something meaningful and lasting'.

[Barry Sanchez]

Its not a poor example because it can be used a beacon of whats possible - an incentive to others to change. There no point in trying to set up usual development levers - schools, farms, businesses, infrastructure etc in areas where the government are excessively corrupt and don't have secure hold over the country.

 

Your approach is simplistic - 'which countries have the greatest need?'. The proper approach is 'which countries have great need and in which we can do something meaningful and lasting'.

 

 

It is a poor example, corruption is rife there, there are huge tensions between Muslims in the Western/North and the Christians, what approach have I given? I have not given one.

[buctootim]

Is there anything you enjoy more than ****ing and whinging and finding fault without offering any alternate ideas or anything constructive? If Kenya is too corrupt and dysfunctional to work in then your premise of sending in the cavalry to the real basket cases falls immediately. I've given up on you, bye.

Edited 6 April, 2014 by buctootim

[Barry Sanchez]

I did I offered Mozambique to strengthen your argument, nothing will change in Africa until the West is allowed to be forceful, until then its as its always been and will always be over there.

[Bearsy]

Do you think it could happen in this country? I mean e.g. if the Daily Mail said we all had to go out and start killing e.g. Gypsies, and that we should also kill anyone who wasn't killing gypsies, do you think that ppl would start killing gypsies? Serious question! I reckon I'd be more up for killing Daily Mail under them circumstances but on the other hand a lot of ppl don't really like gypsies. It would be interesting to see what would happen, they should try it as a social experiment.

[View From The Top]

Is there anything you enjoy more than ****ing and whinging and finding fault without offering any alternate ideas or anything constructive? If Kenya is too corrupt and dysfunctional to work in then your premise of sending in the cavalry to the real basket cases falls immediately. I've given up on you, bye.

 

No point entering a debate with him as he lacks the cognitive ability to understand alternative points of views.

[Barry Sanchez]

No point entering a debate with him as he lacks the cognitive ability to understand alternative points of views.

 

I was asking for alternatives and examples, not just pot shots of Countries in Africa that could be peaceful.

[Saint137]

Do you think it could happen in this country? I mean e.g. if the Daily Mail said we all had to go out and start killing e.g. Gypsies, and that we should also kill anyone who wasn't killing gypsies, do you think that ppl would start killing gypsies? Serious question! I reckon I'd be more up for killing Daily Mail under them circumstances but on the other hand a lot of ppl don't really like gypsies. It would be interesting to see what would happen, they should try it as a social experiment.

 

Society hangs by a thread. Think back to the August riots and petrol shortages of the past few years. Supermarkets emptied, people fighting over cans and bread etc. Govt reckons it would only take 7-10 days for widespread disruption to necessitate martial law. Not saying there would ever be a mass genocide here but certainly never far from widespread crime and disorder beyond the control of the police. And the army lack manpower these days if called out.

[alpine_saint]

The West stood by and did nothing.

 

No oil? Not interested.

 

Pathetic cynical worn-out cliche.

 

There was no oil in Bosnia or Kosovo.

[Halo Stickman]

Do you think it could happen in this country? I mean e.g. if the Daily Mail said we all had to go out and start killing e.g. Gypsies, and that we should also kill anyone who wasn't killing gypsies, do you think that ppl would start killing gypsies? Serious question! I reckon I'd be more up for killing Daily Mail under them circumstances but on the other hand a lot of ppl don't really like gypsies. It would be interesting to see what would happen, they should try it as a social experiment.

 

Interesting question, Bear.

 

The trick in the past has been to convince your followers that those you wish to exterminate are sub-human, parasites, vermin, infidels etc, then encourage the ethnic cleansing to begin – plenty of examples from all regions of the globe over the past few hundred years.

 

But could this happen in 21st century Britain? With reference to Saint137’s post, a few days of empty supermarket shelves would probably be enough to see societal and humanitarian norms begin to break down. And, using some 20th century famines as examples, a few weeks of empty shelves would see people killing one another for foodstuffs, and a few months would see cannibalism break out.

 

Happy Monday morning everyone.

[benjii]

I spent around a month in Rwanda at the end of 2012. It's remarkable how stable, safe and increasingly developed the country is.

 

I dealt with people who lived side by side with others who had been involved in the murder of their parents and siblings. It's really very difficult to comprehend something like that as an outsider. I had meetings with Hutus in government positions. No doubt some of them were perpetrators.

 

Walking round the genocide museum in Kigali you find yourself constantly shaking your head and wondering "how could that happen"? For some strange reason it seems much harder to understand than a place like Auschwitz; maybe because of the relative lack of coverage and cinematisation. There is a room called the children's room where there are brief profiles of ten children murdered in the genocide. It lists things like their favourite toy, favourite food etc and has a big smiley picture of them. The final piece of text says, "cause of death"... "Hacked with machete", "pins pushed through eyes", "smashed against wall" etc. It's probably the saddest thing I've ever seen.

 

The problem the west has with its interventions is insisting on some form of "democracy" (however much of a sham) following our interventions, as though that is a goal in itself, rather than a means of achieving a good society. Kagame is far from a democrat but he is exactly what that country needed and the progress they have made is remarkable. Democracy has a time and a place.

 

Anyway, if you ever get the chance to go there, you should.

 

I'm not sure why Tim is harping on about Kenya which is far more corrupt and violent than Rwanda.

[Turkish]

Do you think it could happen in this country? I mean e.g. if the Daily Mail said we all had to go out and start killing e.g. Gypsies, and that we should also kill anyone who wasn't killing gypsies, do you think that ppl would start killing gypsies? Serious question! I reckon I'd be more up for killing Daily Mail under them circumstances but on the other hand a lot of ppl don't really like gypsies. It would be interesting to see what would happen, they should try it as a social experiment.

 

Primal Scream once told us to "Kill all hippies" and that never happened, so no.

[mightysaints]

Interesting question, Bear.

 

The trick in the past has been to convince your followers that those you wish to exterminate are sub-human, parasites, vermin, infidels etc, then encourage the ethnic cleansing to begin – plenty of examples from all regions of the globe over the past few hundred years.

 

But could this happen in 21st century Britain? With reference to Saint137’s post, a few days of empty supermarket shelves would probably be enough to see societal and humanitarian norms begin to break down. And, using some 20th century famines as examples, a few weeks of empty shelves would see people killing one another for foodstuffs, and a few months would see cannibalism break out.

 

Happy Monday morning everyone.

 

Does that mean we can now go ahead and take out the skates

[Bearsy]

Primal Scream once told us to "Kill all hippies" and that never happened, so no.

 

O RLY? See many hippies round ur way, do you? DO YOU?

[pap]

O RLY? See many hippies round ur way, do you? DO YOU?

 

There are a handful round here. I keep telling the missus that long hair is coming back into fashion (it isn't).

[Bearsy]

there is more to hippy culture than long hair pap, e.g. ill-fitting clothes & body odour

[Halo Stickman]

there is more to hippy culture than long hair pap, e.g. ill-fitting clothes & body odour

 

… plus they have to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony, grow apple trees and honey bees and snow white turtle doves, and sh4g around a lot whilst stoned senseless, dude.

[Tokyo-Saint]

And that jacket that is made out of bear skin.