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sadoldgit

sadoldgit

Posted
Posted
20 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Lets deal in real evidence again, rather than here say or perception. Here is an assessment of the least racist countries in the World. We are 16th in that list so we dont have a racism problem. Some of the things you referenced to arent racist. It doesnt help when people overplay it. Do you have evidence that, compared to most other countries we have a racism problem? 

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/least-racist-countries

Ask people with brown skin, black skin, Muslims, Jews about their daily experiences, the vast majority of which are not recorded or make the news. Ask the people who fronted the Black Lives Matter campaign or the take the knee protests. Read the reports about institutional racism in police forces. If you are standing in a queue in a supermarket and someone walks past you and tells you to go back to your own country, do you think that a league table will make any difference to how you feel?

Sir Ralph

Sir Ralph

Posted
Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Ask people with brown skin, black skin, Muslims, Jews about their daily experiences, the vast majority of which are not recorded or make the news. Ask the people who fronted the Black Lives Matter campaign or the take the knee protests. Read the reports about institutional racism in police forces. If you are standing in a queue in a supermarket and someone walks past you and tells you to go back to your own country, do you think that a league table will make any difference to how you feel?

I don't disagree that individual people may experience true racism at certain times, that includes people of all colours and races and something that should be called out. I would be stupid to deny it happens at all. The rape gangs is race related too and that is the most disgusting form of racism I'm aware of in this country. 

However, you need to look at overall whether the country has an issue with racism and how serious a problem we really have. I've given you evidence from a worldwide survey, which does not have any form of agenda in relation to the UK. You have given here say and perception and possibly your own experience, which I agree is not acceptable. However, it needs to stand up against evidence (unless you have evidence of course relating to seriousness of the issue compared to other countries?). I would honestly suggest going and staying in a truly racist country and you will see the difference.

Edited by Sir Ralph
Sir Ralph

Sir Ralph

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Evidence? Between 2013 and 2023 there was a 190% increase in reported race hate crimes. Reported. Makes you wonder about how many were not reported and what the true figure is.

So this is evidence of a potential increase. Does this relate to convictions or reports of alleged hate crimes? 

Sir Ralph

Sir Ralph

Posted
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

https://observer.co.uk/news/opinion-and-ideas/article/politically-acceptable-uk-racism-is-on-the-rise-and-worse-this-is-under-progressive-labour-rule
 

You can put your head in the sand, but you really need to try and find reasons not to disbelieve what people tell you.

How am I putting my head in the sand?! I asked for clarity on evidence you provided to understand whether these are real incidents that have been convicted or been bolstered by claims of racism that werent. You can also send me lots of articles from left leaning publications but they dont mean anything as they are opinions. I can send you a lot of other opinions that say the UK is not racist but I wouldnt cause they are opinions.

Thats why we deal in facts or impartially founded evidence, hence my question. If you are able to answer my question I am happy to understand it better

I gave you evidence in the Worldwide Survey and you didnt question the evidence within that so I assume you accept it? Have you read the Review by the Sewell Commission?

Edited by Sir Ralph
sadoldgit

sadoldgit

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

How am I putting my head in the sand?! I asked for clarity on evidence you provided to understand whether these are real incidents that have been convicted or been bolstered by claims of racism that werent. You can also send me lots of articles from left leaning publications but they dont mean anything as they are opinions. I will accept facts, hence my question. 

I gave you evidence in the Worldwide Survey and you didnt question the evidence within that so I assume you accept it? Have you read the Review by the Sewell Commission?

Left leaning? What has that got to do with anything? Who do I listen to? A random bloke on the internet who bases his opinions on perceived left/right bias or members of racial and religious minorities who are sharing their experiences about what is happening to them? I can provide plenty of evidence that actual race crimes are increasing if you really aren’t bothered about these people’s every day experiences. I guess you only believe woman when they say they have been sexually assaulted too if there is a legal conviction to back up the claim?

Sir Ralph

Sir Ralph

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Left leaning? What has that got to do with anything? Who do I listen to? A random bloke on the internet who bases his opinions on perceived left/right bias or members of racial and religious minorities who are sharing their experiences about what is happening to them? I can provide plenty of evidence that actual race crimes are increasing if you really aren’t bothered about these people’s every day experiences. I guess you only believe woman when they say they have been sexually assaulted too if there is a legal conviction to back up the claim?

Please share the evidence as I said but you need to share real convictions. Left leaning publications will clearly be more sensitive around these types of issues. In the same way right leaning publications will highlight other issues. Thats why they are not fully reliable but balanced evidence is. Surely you agree with that?

 

Edited by Sir Ralph
AlexLaw76

AlexLaw76

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Please share the evidence as I said. Left leaning publications will clearly be more sensitive around these types of issues. In the same way right leaning publications will highlight other issues. Thats why they are not fully reliable but balanced evidence is. Surely you agree with that?

*waits for Guardian links*

sadoldgit

sadoldgit

Posted
Posted
Just now, Sir Ralph said:

Please share the evidence as I said.

In the year up to March 2025 there was a 6% increase in race hate crimes. During the same period religious hate crimes increased by 3%. Muslim hate crime in particular increased by 19%. I gave you a ten year figure earlier of an increase of 190%.
You could also try listening to people’s personal experiences if you want to know how it affects them. It lands for more powerfully than looking at a bunch of figures.

sadoldgit

sadoldgit

Posted
Posted
30 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

So this is evidence of a potential increase. Does this relate to convictions or reports of alleged hate crimes? 

As it says clearly. These are reported crimes and is not a “potential” increase. It is an actual increase. These are only the crimes that are reported. As I am sure you understand, many more go unreported. 

Sir Ralph

Sir Ralph

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

In the year up to March 2025 there was a 6% increase in race hate crimes. During the same period religious hate crimes increased by 3%. Muslim hate crime in particular increased by 19%. I gave you a ten year figure earlier of an increase of 190%.
You could also try listening to people’s personal experiences if you want to know how it affects them. It lands for more powerfully than looking at a bunch of figures.

Yes I know, but were these convictions or allegations of crimes made to the police?

whelk

whelk

Posted
Posted

Makes you wonder why so many want to come to such a racist country.

SOG you are so desperate to go looking for things that upset you. Stop obsessing over racists

  • Like 1
whelk

whelk

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

As it says clearly. These are reported crimes and is not a “potential” increase. It is an actual increase. These are only the crimes that are reported. As I am sure you understand, many more go unreported. 

Is criticising Bellingham a racist hate crime?

sadoldgit

sadoldgit

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Yes I know, but were these convictions or allegations of crimes made to the police?

Are you nic? They are “reported” which means they are “reported” to the police. The CPS said there was an 86%  success rate in these prosecutions.

What interests me is why you are only bothered about stats but don’t seem remotely concerned by personal experiences.

Edited by sadoldgit
Sir Ralph

Sir Ralph

Posted
Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Are you nic? They are “reported” which means they are “reported” to the police. The CPS said there was an 86%  success rate in these prosecutions.

What interests me is why you are only bothered about stats but don’t seem remotely concerned by personal experiences.

It appears that the police have changed the way they record hate crimes which means more are now recorded. 

I dont know if your figures are convictions or allegations but the change in recording will skew the increase and this is acknowledged by the Government. 

Look, I can accept that people may experience more hate crimes because of the current political situation, etc. However, I think the increase you showed is skewed for the reason I said. However, the evidence still shows that, even if there is an increase, the UK is not a racist country. I agree we need to guard against a rise in racism but its not a big issue in this country as I have evidenced. 

I deal in facts because lived experiences, whilst they can be valid, are different for each person and one persons experience doesnt mean its a societal trend or problem. Its why society is so fucked nowadays. We have moved away from truth and facts. I feel bad for any bad experiences you have had though, genuinely.

Edited by Sir Ralph
  • Like 1
The Kraken

The Kraken

Posted
Posted
Just now, Sir Ralph said:

Its the bloke who doesnt answer questions...hello. You got the answer to my question yet?

No mate, really couldn’t be bothered 👍

Sir Ralph

Sir Ralph

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, The Kraken said:

No mate, really couldn’t be bothered 👍

Its ok I knew you couldnt answer it. Better luck next time hey

whelk

whelk

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

It’s also completely asinine to make out that only the UK is seeing a rise in racism.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67217771

Playing devils advocate on the statistics but wouldn’t hate crimes expect to rise if there are more people from different ethnicities coming into West, so more potential victims?

The Kraken

The Kraken

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, whelk said:

Playing devils advocate on the statistics but wouldn’t hate crimes expect to rise if there are more people from different ethnicities coming into West, so more potential victims?

Yep, that’s certainly one factor among many that you’d need to apply. Just saying “racism is on the rise” is a bit meaningless without providing any context.

sadoldgit

sadoldgit

Posted
Posted
48 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

It appears that the police have changed the way they record hate crimes which means more are now recorded. 

I dont know if your figures are convictions or allegations but the change in recording will skew the increase and this is acknowledged by the Government. 

Look, I can accept that people may experience more hate crimes because of the current political situation, etc. However, I think the increase you showed is skewed for the reason I said. However, the evidence still shows that, even if there is an increase, the UK is not a racist country. I agree we need to guard against a rise in racism but its not a big issue in this country as I have evidenced. 

I deal in facts because lived experiences, whilst they can be valid, are different for each person and one persons experience doesnt mean its a societal trend or problem. Its why society is so fucked nowadays. We have moved away from truth and facts. I feel bad for any bad experiences you have had though, genuinely.

There is plenty of official evidence on the internet if you care to look. There is a big difference between being a tolerant country and being a racist country. I’d also be interested in how you define a racist country. I’m sure many countries are tolerant and are not seen as being racist, but that doesn’t mean to say that they don’t have serious issues with racism. The fact that it is being talked about virtually every day shows that it is a serious issue, surely?

If an Asian guy came up to you, clearly upset, and told you that he had just been called a fkin p*** and was told to go back to his own country, would you show him empathy or tell him to go away and come back when the perpetrator had been charged and convicted?

sadoldgit

sadoldgit

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Sir Ralph said:

Please share the evidence as I said but you need to share real convictions. Left leaning publications will clearly be more sensitive around these types of issues. In the same way right leaning publications will highlight other issues. Thats why they are not fully reliable but balanced evidence is. Surely you agree with that?

 

I think that you are just desperately trying to pretend this isn’t a serious issue.

Sir Ralph

Sir Ralph

Posted
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I think that you are just desperately trying to pretend this isn’t a serious issue.

No im not I don’t think it is. Like I said I deal in facts and evidence

Edited by Sir Ralph
sadoldgit

sadoldgit

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Sir Ralph said:

 

Have you read the Review by the Sewell Commission?

You say you deal in facts, you might recall then that it is a fact to say that the Sewell Commission’s report was widely discredited. One group said that it was a “deliberate attempt to whitewash institutional racism.” Keir Starmer himself was “deeply disappointed” with it.

Sir Ralph

Sir Ralph

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

You say you deal in facts, you might recall then that it is a fact to say that the Sewell Commission’s report was widely discredited. One group said that it was a “deliberate attempt to whitewash institutional racism.” Keir Starmer himself was “deeply disappointed” with it.

Well it was an independent review. I suspect some people didn’t like the outcome cause it didn’t fit with their preconceptions. I attach more weight to that review than Starmers flip flop opinion. What about the world wide survey (not political) that I sent - that has no weight as evidence to you? If it doesn’t why do you disagree with its findings. I really think you should visit some other countries and then you would understand how tolerant this country is

Edited by Sir Ralph
sadoldgit

sadoldgit

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Sir Ralph said:

No im not I don’t think it is.

Yet you are constantly trying to ignore both hard factual evidence along with compelling  anecdotal evidence. Ok.

What about the thousands of emails displaying racial hatred that are shared in the media but do not get taken to the police for action. Do you discount those?

sadoldgit

sadoldgit

Posted
Posted
Just now, Sir Ralph said:

Well it was an independent view. I attach more weight to that than Starmers flip flop opinion. What about the world wide survey (not political) that I sent - that has no weight as evidence to you? If it doesn’t why do you disagree with its findings. I really think you should visit some other countries and then you would understand how tolerant this country is

Oh dear. It wasn’t just Starmer. The report was pulled apart and criticised by many people. You would know that if you were a true fact seeker and unbiased in this matter.

whelk

whelk

Posted
Posted
38 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

If an Asian guy came up to you, clearly upset, and told you that he had just been called a fkin p*** and was told to go back to his own country, would you show him empathy or tell him to go away and come back when the perpetrator had been charged and convicted?

Presumably you would also apply this anecdotal guff if someone came up to you and said I’ve just been robbed by a Somalian immigrant with a knife, as clear evidence of high violent crime rates amongst Somalians?

  • Like 3
hypochondriac

hypochondriac

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

Ask people with brown skin, black skin, Muslims, Jews about their daily experiences, the vast majority of which are not recorded or make the news. Ask the people who fronted the Black Lives Matter campaign or the take the knee protests. Read the reports about institutional racism in police forces. If you are standing in a queue in a supermarket and someone walks past you and tells you to go back to your own country, do you think that a league table will make any difference to how you feel?

My wife has brown skin and has been called a Paki twice in her life. We don't have a racism problem. 

Edited by hypochondriac
  • Like 1
hypochondriac

hypochondriac

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, The Kraken said:

Yep, that’s certainly one factor among many that you’d need to apply. Just saying “racism is on the rise” is a bit meaningless without providing any context.

Also may be stating the obvious but someone reporting something does not necessarily mean that something has been committed- that would be the perception of the person making the complaint- or that a higher number of people reporting possible crimes means that the crime rate itself has gone up. You could argue that higher reporting rates is a positive thing as it means either awareness of the importance of reporting or the confidence that those reporting have that they will be believed has increased. 

  • Like 1
hypochondriac

hypochondriac

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

I think racism has potentially given way to xenophobia/religious issues, rather than pure old school racism.

There's elements of racism, xenophobia etc in every country on Earth because it's human nature to be tribal. It is very obvious that we are one of the most tolerant and least bigoted nations on Earth though. I assume those who think the opposite have not spent time in the Middle East, Asia or even some European countries like Italy.

It is certainly true that there are greater religious and cultural tensions than there have been in the past but that's kind of inevitable given the levels of mass migration in the last decade or so. 

  • Like 1
sadoldgit

sadoldgit

Posted
Posted
48 minutes ago, whelk said:

Presumably you would also apply this anecdotal guff if someone came up to you and said I’ve just been robbed by a Somalian immigrant with a knife, as clear evidence of high violent crime rates amongst Somalians?

If someone said they had been robbed by a Somalian immigrant with a knife why would I dispute that? It doesn’t mean that all Somalian immigrants carry knives and rob people though does it? Whereas we know that more people carry out hate crimes because we have the official figures to back it up. We don’t need to rely on anecdotal evidence.

Anecdotal guff? You sound like that custody Sargent in the undercover Panorama programme about dodgy coppers. “That’s what she said.” Just as well that you didn’t pursue a career in the police.

hypochondriac

hypochondriac

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, sadoldgit said:

If someone said they had been robbed by a Somalian immigrant with a knife why would I dispute that? It doesn’t mean that all Somalian immigrants carry knives and rob people though does it? Whereas we know that more people carry out hate crimes because we have the official figures to back it up. We don’t need to rely on anecdotal evidence.

Anecdotal guff? You sound like that custody Sargent in the undercover Panorama programme about dodgy coppers. “That’s what she said.” Just as well that you didn’t pursue a career in the police.

A rise in hate crime reports isn't evidence of crime going up.

  • Like 1
whelk

whelk

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

I think racism has potentially given way to xenophobia/religious issues, rather than pure old school racism.

Racism is not clear cut as some would like have everyone believe. We are all wired to have elements of contentment when sticking to people who are similar to us, ie our tribe. Converse can also be true and obviously this isn’t just skin colour.
We all have varying degrees of prejudice against all manner of things - I think it is blown up by some people wanting a simplistic approach to say someone is either 100% racist or 0% racist. Having said that there is nothing more odious than an ignorant racist bully.

  • Like 3
whelk

whelk

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Anecdotal guff? You sound like that custody Sargent in the undercover Panorama programme about dodgy coppers. “That’s what she said.” Just as well that you didn’t pursue a career in the police

What the fuck are you going on about?

Turkish

Turkish

Posted
  • Author
Posted
35 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

My wife has brow skin and has been called a Paki twice in her life. We don't have a racism problem. 

Agreed. There is a big difference between a racist country and a few racist people in a country.

I know some people want to live in this magical little world where everyone agrees with everything they say and that everyone is lovely to each other, everyone has enough money to do what they want with and we all live along side by side singing Kumbaya round the camp fire but there are some cunts in this world, but it doesn't mean the majority of people are.

  • Like 1
sadoldgit

sadoldgit

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, whelk said:

What the fuck are you going on about?

The custody Sargent who dissed the woman who said had been punched in the stomach. He probably was thinking that was “anecdotal guff” too. 

Turkish

Turkish

Posted
  • Author
Posted
6 minutes ago, whelk said:

Racism is not clear cut as some would like have everyone believe. We are all wired to have elements of contentment when sticking to people who are similar to us, ie our tribe. Converse can also be true and obviously this isn’t just skin colour.
We all have varying degrees of prejudice against all manner of things - I think it is blown up by some people wanting a simplistic approach to say someone is either 100% racist or 0% racist. Having said that there is nothing more odious than an ignorant racist bully.

You also have the issue of the self righteous tossers who want to make everything about race whilst pretending their not. You know the type that sit in their middle class towns and villages tutting at how terrible everything is and using it as a platform to show just how much they care about it all by telling everyone just that. They dont really care about racism, what they care about is making sure they are seen to care because it makes them feel good.

  • Like 1
whelk

whelk

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Turkish said:

Agreed. There is a big difference between a racist country and a few racist people in a country.

I know some people want to live in this magical little world where everyone agrees with everything they say and that everyone is lovely to each other, everyone has enough money to do what they want with and we all live along side by side singing Kumbaya round the camp fire but there are some cunts in this world, but it doesn't mean the majority of people are.

Did you see the white ribbon on all presenters and players - to ‘end violence against women and girls’? Risk of being cynical are we next going to go for ‘global love, peace and harmony’. There are bad people who do bad things. Wishing there wasn’t is not really going to work. 

  • Like 1
Farmer Saint

Farmer Saint

Posted
Posted
22 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

There's elements of racism, xenophobia etc in every country on Earth because it's human nature to be tribal. It is very obvious that we are one of the most tolerant and least bigoted nations on Earth though. I assume those who think the opposite have not spent time in the Middle East, Asia or even some European countries like Italy.

It is certainly true that there are greater religious and cultural tensions than there have been in the past but that's kind of inevitable given the levels of mass migration in the last decade or so. 

Don't disagree, and not saying that it is higher than other countries. However, I think, personally, I see more issues now with the religious bigotry/xenophobia than I have ever seen from racism.

What is great to see is that my kids do not even compute that someone could be marginalised/abused due to their colour. 

whelk

whelk

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

The custody Sargent who dissed the woman who said had been punched in the stomach. He probably was thinking that was “anecdotal guff” too. 

It is very hard to have a reasoned debate with you - great conclusion though

  • Like 2
Turkish

Turkish

Posted
  • Author
Posted
3 minutes ago, whelk said:

Did you see the white ribbon on all presenters and players - to ‘end violence against women and girls’? Risk of being cynical are we next going to go for ‘global love, peace and harmony’. There are bad people who do bad things. Wishing there wasn’t is not really going to work. 

Yes but i didn't know what they were for. Im sure it'll help though. Even if it doesnt the lads have done their bit. 

hypochondriac

hypochondriac

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Don't disagree, and not saying that it is higher than other countries. However, I think, personally, I see more issues now with the religious bigotry/xenophobia than I have ever seen from racism.

What is great to see is that my kids do not even compute that someone could be marginalised/abused due to their colour. 

There's definitely more religious bigotry and xenophobia I agree. We also know what the reasons are for that and it's not because everyone has suddenly become less accepting of others out of nowhere. I also agree with your second point. If anything, racism and discrimination due to skin colour has declined in recent years, certainly that's my experience although I accept that's anecdotal. 

  • Like 1

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