What Is Happening To Our Country?

[egg]

6 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Please don't quote him, ignore doesn't work on quotes! We've been through the Rwanda thing numerous times (only for 300 people/cost per person issues etc) but he forgets that every time it's posted.

But nobody would get on boat if they could become one of the 300. Or something like that. 

[Farmer Saint]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

But nobody would get on boat if they could become one of the 300. Or something like that. 

1 in 150 chance I work it out as. I think we'd all take those odds...

[The Kraken]

Bibby Stockholm was 35 million quid incredibly well spent though.  Until the lefties got rid of it.

 

 

Edited 13 hours ago by The Kraken

[Holmes_and_Watson]

54 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

Bibby Stockholm was 35 million quid incredibly well spent though.  Until the lefties got rid of it.

 

 

Glad you're kidding.

For a moment I thought you had Bibby Stockholm syndrome. 🙂

[rallyboy]

1 hour ago, The Kraken said:

Bibby Stockholm was 35 million quid incredibly well spent though.  Until the lefties got rid of it.

 

 

I think the Tory donor who took most of the money thought it was well spent.

Has it made it to Rwanda yet?

[Sir Ralph]

7 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

Please don't quote him, ignore doesn't work on quotes! We've been through the Rwanda thing numerous times (only for 300 people/cost per person issues etc) but he forgets that every time it's posted.

The point is that once up and running it the intention was that it would have been a disincentive for people so could have resulted in fewer people coming hence an overall saving. 
 

Anyway my overall response wasn’t about the merits of the schemes it was in relation to those on the left who will seek to stop any proposals which restrict immigration. 

Edited 6 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[badgerx16]

23 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

The point is that once up and running it the intention was that it would have been a disincentive for people so could have resulted in fewer people coming hence an overall saving. 
 

Anyway my overall response wasn’t about the merits of the schemes it was in relation to those on the left who will seek to stop any proposals which restrict immigration. 

Who exactly ?

Plenty question whether a specific proposal is workable, or the motivation behind it, or the emphasis on the Channel boats ( an emotive minority of migrants coming here ), but I'm not aware of anybody espousing unrestricted immigration.

Edited 6 hours ago by badgerx16

[Sir Ralph]

56 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Who exactly ?

Plenty question whether a specific proposal is workable, or the motivation behind it, or the emphasis on the Channel boats ( an emotive minority of migrants coming here ), but I'm not aware of anybody espousing unrestricted immigration.

Please refer to my previous post

[badgerx16]

7 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Please refer to my previous post

So you cannot name a sngle person, just a vague assertion about "...left wing MPs, human rights lawyers, unions, civil rights groups, etc,..."

Gve one specific example of somebody publicly championing unrestricted immigration.

[Sir Ralph]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

So you cannot name a sngle person, just a vague assertion about "...left wing MPs, human rights lawyers, unions, civil rights groups, etc,..."

Gve one specific example of somebody publicly championing unrestricted immigration.

I didn’t say anyone was openly championing unrestricted immigration (not in public at least). I said there are groups on the left and in the human rights sector who have tried to oppose government policies to restrict illegal immigration.

Amnesty international, liberty, unison, pcs, Lucas, cherry, Corbyn - there were a number of Labour, Lib Dem and Green MPS. There are other groups and parties or individuals that are to the left. I assume you acknowledge that all those named are?

Edited 4 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[badgerx16]

43 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

I didn’t say anyone was openly championing unrestricted immigration (not in public at least). I said there are groups on the left and in the human rights sector who have tried to oppose government policies to restrict illegal immigration.

Amnesty international, liberty, unison, pcs, Lucas, cherry, Corbyn - there were a number of Labour, Lib Dem and Green MPS. There are other groups and parties or individuals that are to the left. I assume you acknowledge that all those named are?

Do those organisations and individuals "... seek to stop any proposals which restrict immigration. " ? ( I would assume they have actually come out and said that they actively oppose such proposals ).

Edited 3 hours ago by badgerx16

[Sir Ralph]

13 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Do those organisations and individuals "... seek to stop any proposals which restrict immigration. " ? ( I would assume they have actually come out and said that they actively oppose such proposals ).

Ok be pedantic - if that singular word is what you’re hanging onto I know you’re struggling . Left wing groups or individuals as a collective will try and stop any proposals to restrict immigration 
 

Do you agree that the left wing in the whole are the ones that resist proposals to reduce illegal immigration?

Edited 3 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[badgerx16]

4 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Ok be pedantic - you get the point and have to accept it hence why are benign pedantic. End of conversation 

I don't accept it. You are, as usual, spouting exaggerated waffle.

If the Government passes effective legislation which the Courts, domestic and international, can support, ultimately no amount of vocal opposition and activism can prevent the policies being carried out. The issues lie with politicians being unable, or unwilling, to develop a legal workable solution, ( NOT Rwanda Mk2 ).

Edited 3 hours ago by badgerx16

[Turkish]

Back to these documents which tell our culture enrichers not to rape women or nonce kids 

is this an admission from the government that it is a problem or something else?

[The Kraken]

 

5 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

I don't accept it. You are, as usual, spouting exaggerated waffle.

If the Government passes effective legislation which the Courts, domestic and international, can support, ultimately no amount of vocal opposition and activism can prevent the policies being carried out. The issues lie with politicians being unable, or unwilling, to develop a legal workable solution, ( NOT Rwanda Mk2 ).

Correct, and you’re right to point it out.  It’s not pedantic, it is an important distinction to make.

The constant need to identify a leftie bogeyman is just bizarre to me. Show me any person who agrees with the notion that there are people of any political persuasion who, I quote, try to restrict any attempt at restricting immigration and I’ll call them a bloody leftie idiot myself. Even Zack Polanski, a man I have absolutely no favour for at all, has confirmed that his party do not think open borders is in any way a pragmatic solution.

It’s quite interesting to note that the poster in question laments the loss of Bibby Stockholm and the hideously priced Rwanda scheme. And, while previously acknowledging the Dublin agreement as an extremely useful tool, does not seem to encourage a return to it. I find that approach somewhat contradictory and strange. The blame game of lefties for the current immigration mess is just such a simple approach that kind of misses the point.

[The Kraken]

Just now, Turkish said:

Back to these documents which tell our culture enrichers not to rape women or nonce kids 

is this an admission from the government that it is a problem or something else?

It’s a stupid mess, is what it is. And makes a charade of a very serious and obvious problem.

[Sir Ralph]

45 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

I don't accept it. You are, as usual, spouting exaggerated waffle.

If the Government passes effective legislation which the Courts, domestic and international, can support, ultimately no amount of vocal opposition and activism can prevent the policies being carried out. The issues lie with politicians being unable, or unwilling, to develop a legal workable solution, ( NOT Rwanda Mk2 ).

You ignored the question

[Sir Ralph]

1 hour ago, The Kraken said:

 

Correct, and you’re right to point it out.  It’s not pedantic, it is an important distinction to make.

The constant need to identify a leftie bogeyman is just bizarre to me. Show me any person who agrees with the notion that there are people of any political persuasion who, I quote, try to restrict any attempt at restricting immigration and I’ll call them a bloody leftie idiot myself. Even Zack Polanski, a man I have absolutely no favour for at all, has confirmed that his party do not think open borders is in any way a pragmatic solution.

It’s quite interesting to note that the poster in question laments the loss of Bibby Stockholm and the hideously priced Rwanda scheme. And, while previously acknowledging the Dublin agreement as an extremely useful tool, does not seem to encourage a return to it. I find that approach somewhat contradictory and strange. The blame game of lefties for the current immigration mess is just such a simple approach that kind of misses the point.

The point is collectively leftist groups or individuals have tried to repeatedly block serious attempts to restrict immigration . The point of difference was whoether those on the left try to hinder these policies. I didn’t lament the policies - point out where I did? I also didn’t say the Dublin agreement was “extremely” useful. I said it was a factor in helping (noting that wider geo political shifts have occurred since Brexit which have been an factor)and I didn’t vote for Brexit. Please quote correctly.

Put it this way, I can point to various left wing groups or individuals that have sought to restrict illegal immigration policies. Can you point to any conservative / right wing groups or individuals that have to the scale of those on the opposite political spectrum?

Edited 2 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[The Kraken]

18 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Put it this way, I can point to various left wing groups or individuals that have sought to restrict illegal immigration policies. Can you point to any conservative / right wing groups or individuals that have to the scale of those on the opposite political spectrum?

I can point to consecutive Conservative governments who enabled Brexit (some actively encouraged it) and thus enabled the vast numbers of illegal immigration we have these days. So, yes, I can point at large C and small c conservatives as being the root cause. After that it becomes a bit irrelevant, the Rwanda scheme and the Bibby Stockholm scheme you so admire wouldn’t have made much of a dent.

[Sir Ralph]

20 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

I can point to consecutive Conservative governments who enabled Brexit (some actively encouraged it) and thus enabled the vast numbers of illegal immigration we have these days. So, yes, I can point at large C and small c conservatives as being the root cause. After that it becomes a bit irrelevant, the Rwanda scheme and the Bibby Stockholm scheme you so admire wouldn’t have made much of a dent.

Not the distinction I’m making. The conservatives didn’t knowingly propose policies or oppose restrictive policies which had the direct intention of reducing illegal immigration.
 

The point is the individuals or groups on the left deliberately opposed policies that had the specific intention of discouraging illegal immigration. 
 

Put it this way, I can point to various left wing groups or individuals that have deliberately sought to block policies that would restrict illegal immigration. Can you point to any conservative / right wing groups or individuals that have deliberately done the same to the scale of those on the opposite political spectrum?

Edited 1 hour ago by Sir Ralph

[The Kraken]

8 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Not the distinction I’m making. The conservatives didn’t knowingly propose policies or oppose restrictive policies which had the direct intention of enabling illegal immigration, even if you think that was the consequence.
 

The point is the individuals or groups on the left deliberately opposed policies that had the specific intention of discouraging illegal immigration. 
 

It’s your point. It’s not the point. 

You can justify the conservatives as not knowingly bringing in policy all you like. It’s a simple fact that they did it, it was all under their watch. Unlike you, I don’t entirely blame “the right”, as that’s as frankly a pathetic distinction as blaming “the left”. The immigration failure is a complete failure from both sides and needs fixing properly with genuinely real solutions, not the idiotic and ridiculously expensive schemes you lament that wouldn’t make any genuine impact on numbers, scuppered or not by those pesky lefties who you love to shout at.

 

Edited 1 hour ago by The Kraken

[Sir Ralph]

11 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

It’s your point. It’s not the point. 

You can justify the conservatives as not knowingly bringing in policy all you like. It’s a simple fact that they did it, it was all under their watch. Unlike you, I don’t entirely blame “the right”, as that’s as frankly a pathetic distinction as blaming “the left”. The immigration failure is a complete failure from both sides and needs fixing properly with genuinely real solutions, not the idiotic and ridiculously expensive schemes you lament that wouldn’t make any genuine impact on numbers, scuppered or not by those pesky lefties who you love to shout at.

 

You’re answering a different question which I don’t disagree with in principle.
 

however I think the answer to my question appears to be “no” which was the basis of what was discused

Edited 1 hour ago by Sir Ralph

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, The Kraken said:

It’s a stupid mess, is what it is. And makes a charade of a very serious and obvious problem.

The obvious problem being that these culture enhancers think raping women’s and abusing kids is normal, or something else?

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

The obvious problem being that these culture enhancers think raping women’s and abusing kids is normal, or something else?

Devils advocate - educating people who may need educating, is surely better than not educating them. 

[The Kraken]

7 minutes ago, Turkish said:

The obvious problem being that these culture enhancers think raping women’s and abusing kids is normal, or something else?

No, you got it, the poster thing is IMO a complete failure that identifies a very significant problem. Putting something like that out to try to ‘solve’ a problem makes a mockery of it imo.

 

Edited 1 hour ago by The Kraken

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Sir Ralph said:

You ignored the question

It's a pointed and pointless question. The strange thing is that the "Party of Law and Order" has constantly failed to find a solution to something that those in opposition continually succeed in challenging by using the Law.

All those people that you despise so much are doing is using the system that is in place. It is the Government's responsibility, whichever colour it might be, to produce workable Legal solutions. If they do that, the opposition has no recourse.

[egg]

6 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

You’re answering a different question which I don’t disagree with in principle.
 

however I think the answer to my question is “no” which was the basis of what was discused

I think you're approaching a complex issue in a very simple way, and looking for a scapegoat that doesn't exist. 

At the end of the day, government decisions are exactly that. There'll always be opposition to anything, from various areas of the political spectrum, and quite what you're trying to prove here I can't see. 

At the end of the day, illegal immigration on this scale was teed up by the tory government, and there has not been a labour policy which has led to it getting worse. Indeed, labour have increased removals, closed more hotels, and carried out more raids. 

[Turkish]

11 minutes ago, egg said:

Devils advocate - educating people who may need educating, is surely better than not educating them. 

I don’t remember learning raping women was wrong from a government booklet, did you?

[Turkish]

11 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

No, you got it, the poster thing is IMO a complete failure that identifies a very significant problem. Putting something like that out to try to ‘solve’ a problem makes a mockery of it imo.

 

But possibly acknowledging that the think racist flag shagger might have had a point?

[egg]

Just now, Turkish said:

I don’t remember learning raping women was wrong from a government booklet, did you?

Would you prefer that people who haven't been raised here aren't educated in the way things are here? Educating them seems more sensible than not educating them. It's being done in a shit way mind, and although the information shouldn't have to be given, I'm struggling to think why anyone would prefer the information not to be given. 

[The Kraken]

Just now, Turkish said:

But possibly acknowledging that the think racist flag shagger might have had a point?

I’ve said before. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone say before that illegal and mass immigration, which adds to a growing UK population without our own resources growing at the same rate, isn’t a problem. I just think people see the solution in different ways.

Anyone who says immigration isn’t a problem is an idiot, anyone who tries to attribute it entirely to political leanings falls into the same category as far as I’m concerned.

[Turkish]

8 minutes ago, egg said:

Would you prefer that people who haven't been raised here aren't educated in the way things are here? Educating them seems more sensible than not educating them. It's being done in a shit way mind, and although the information shouldn't have to be given, I'm struggling to think why anyone would prefer the information not to be given. 

That didn’t answer the question. Is it the government admitting there is a problem or something else?

[Turkish]

11 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

I’ve said before. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone say before that illegal and mass immigration, which adds to a growing UK population without our own resources growing at the same rate, isn’t a problem. I just think people see the solution in different ways.

Anyone who says immigration isn’t a problem is an idiot, anyone who tries to attribute it entirely to political leanings falls into the same category as far as I’m concerned.

But as above is the fact we have to tell them rape and peadophilia is wrong and admission that there is a danger and this holy grail multicultural society living side by side in unity isn’t actually what its Meant to be?

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

That didn’t answer the question. Is it the government admitting there is a problem or something else?

It's clearly an acknowledgement that education or information is needed. To answer my question, would you prefer these people to be educated or not? 

[The Kraken]

Just now, Turkish said:

But as above is the fact we have to tell them rape and peadophilia is wrong and admission that there is a danger and this holy grail multicultural society living side by side in unity isn’t actually what its Meant to be?

Sorry, I thought I was being clear. Quite simply, yes. It’s a very significant problem that it makes it completely ridiculous that it needs a government-approved poster to point it out.

[Turkish]

17 minutes ago, egg said:

It's clearly an acknowledgement that education or information is needed. To answer my question, would you prefer these people to be educated or not? 

Yes of course although I’d have hoped given most of them appear early 20s and above they’d already know rape and peadophillia were not acceptable. But given we need to tell this and educate them how long will this take?

once again though you ignore the point that the fact that this document is need, is this an admission there is problem?

Edited 32 minutes ago by Turkish

[Holmes_and_Watson]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Yes of course although I’d have hoped given most of them appear early 20s and above they’d already know rape and peadophillia were acceptable. But given we need to tell this and educate them how long will this take?

Glad you weren't the writer of the booklet. That could have led to problems 🙂