Israel

[Osvaldorama]

[Farmer Saint]

10 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

Good on them.

[egg]

Just now, Farmer Saint said:

Good on them.

Big Baz has gone up in my estimation. 

It's a shame it's taken so long for the penny to drop and people taking a stand. That said, only 3 Europe nations walked out on Netanyahu's hate speech the other day. 

[whelk]

8 minutes ago, egg said:

Big Baz has gone up in my estimation. 

It's a shame it's taken so long for the penny to drop and people taking a stand. That said, only 3 Europe nations walked out on Netanyahu's hate speech the other day. 

Presumably you have an issue with our goalkeeper?

Edited 4 hours ago by whelk

[egg]

10 minutes ago, whelk said:

Presumably you have an issue with our goalkeeper?

Odd presumption.

My issue is with the murderous Israeli regime, settlers, expansionist Zionists, and people that support or sponsor that. 

You strike me as bright enough to understand that Israeli people, and Jewish people generally, are not those people. If you lump them all together, that's a you issue. 

Edited 4 hours ago by egg

[whelk]

6 minutes ago, egg said:

Odd presumption.

My issue is with the murderous Israeli regime, settlers, expansionist Zionists, and people that support or sponsor that. 

You strike me as bright enough to understand that Israeli people, and Jewish people generally, are not those people. If you lump them all together, that's a you issue. 

So no one should have played Iran in the WC? Or you ok with that regime?

[egg]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

So no one should have played Iran in the WC? Or you ok with that regime?

There's not the equivalence that you believe there is. When Iran decimate and invade other countries, occupy other countries, etc, I'll elevate them to Israeli levels. 

More countries walking out on Israel than Iran at the UN is telling. They've lost the room. 

[Gloucester Saint]

Just now, egg said:

There's not the equivalence that you believe there is. When Iran decimate and invade other countries, occupy other countries, etc, I'll elevate them to Israeli levels. 

More countries walking out on Israel than Iran at the UN is telling. They've lost the room. 

Once their electorate dump Netanyahu and Ben Givr, they’ll get support again from me. But those two are even worse than Trump and need to go. 

[Lighthouse]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

There's not the equivalence that you believe there is. When Iran decimate and invade other countries, occupy other countries, etc, I'll elevate them to Israeli levels. 

More countries walking out on Israel than Iran at the UN is telling. They've lost the room. 

So Iran destabilising the entire region, supporting fanatical militants, supplying drones to Russia and having a stated aim to exterminate the entire Jewish state don’t count?

[egg]

1 minute ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Once their electorate dump Netanyahu and Ben Givr, they’ll get support again from me. But those two are even worse than Trump and need to go. 

It'll be a start, but there must be support in principle for a 2 state solution, and within 1967 borders.

That must also be supported by whoever is in charge of the Palestinian states , and the neighbours, Iran included. 

There's a cocktail of issues, but it doesn't start or end with the current leadership or ideology in Israel, Iran or Palestine. 

 

[inspectorfrost]

The other elephant in the room is what happened to Russia and ordinary Russians after Putin launched the full-scale invasion. If that affected the ordinary Russian that was deemed acceptable, if it affects the ordinary Israeli the anti-semite card is played and screamed.  

This is one reason why we've ended up in the complete mess with sporting situations like this and completely different scenarios like Eurovision.

Enough people have wised up to the double standards and the good guy-bad guy narrative not reflecting reality

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

So Iran destabilising the entire region, supporting fanatical militants, supplying drones to Russia and having a stated aim to exterminate the entire Jewish state don’t count?

What's destabilised the region more - Israel wanting to expand it's borders, internally and externally, aided and abetted by the US, or the opposition to that? It's not the latter. 

Why is the US supplying weapons to Israel to enable it smash up Gaza, parts of Lebanon, etc, not considered far more significant than Iran supplying Russia with drones?

The bottom line is that Israel want domination of the middle east, and expansion, and any state capable of interfering with that have been neutered. After Israel, it'll be Turkey, and we've heard Netanyahu tee that up. 

You've allowed yourself to believe that Iran are the agitators. I disagree. 

[whelk]

15 minutes ago, egg said:

There's not the equivalence that you believe there is. When Iran decimate and invade other countries, occupy other countries, etc, I'll elevate them to Israeli levels. 

More countries walking out on Israel than Iran at the UN is telling. They've lost the room. 

Yeah very telling. Never hear Billy Eilish at al getting triggered by non-democratic countries. Why is that?

[whelk]

15 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Once their electorate dump Netanyahu and Ben Givr, they’ll get support again from me. But those two are even worse than Trump and need to go. 

I hope they do but amazing that with all the shit going on in the world only Israel is visible to musicians and footballers

[egg]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

Yeah very telling. Never hear Billy Eilish at al getting triggered by non-democratic countries. Why is that?

No idea mate, I know nothing about her. 

Please explain your point, and it's relevance to more countries disapproving of the behaviour of Israel than Iran... presumably you think it's something other than the very obvious point that their behaviour is worse. 

[Lighthouse]

Israeli is a very distant fourth on the list of countries destabilising the world. Russia, Iran and the USA are all far more problematic.

[egg]

6 minutes ago, whelk said:

I hope they do but amazing that with all the shit going on in the world only Israel is visible to musicians and footballers

The issue is that Israel operate with impunity. It's athletes and footballers - who aren't the ones at fault - get to compete in the way the Russians, for example, don't. 

Ultimately, as per South Africa back in the day, a stand has to be taken in some quarters. 

Unless you're advocating for things to stay as they are, I'm struggling to see your issue with people taking a stand.

[whelk]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

No idea mate, I know nothing about her. 

Please explain your point, and it's relevance to more countries disapproving of the behaviour of Israel than Iran... presumably you think it's something other than the very obvious point that their behaviour is worse. 

I believe it is in-built prejudice tbh. Quite tangible for those that don’t want to think to hard about other things. As burne out with your defence of Iran. Tell you what I’ll buy you a ticket to Tel Aviv or Tehran for a city break. Which one do you want? Guess what you can protest against the regime in one and not the other.

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Israeli is a very distant fourth on the list of countries destabilising the world. Russia, Iran and the USA are all far more problematic.

We'll agree to differ re Israel and Iran.

The US destabilised Iran, and empowered Israel, which in turn has destabilised the whole middle east.

Russia, via the Ukrainian conflict, is having it's buttons pressed. I think it wants to keep it's fight to Ukraine only, but with the NATO and EU support for Ukraine (bewildering that you ignore that whilst pointing to the Iran support for Russia), I fear there's something brewing. We agree that they're a huge issue though, but I don't think its mentality is expansionist in the same way as Israel.

The US, absolutely, it's lost the plot. 

[Farmer Saint]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

Presumably you have an issue with our goalkeeper?

More about the organisation than single people.

However, if I heard that Peretz was for the genocide in Gaza I would definitely have an issue with him.

[Lighthouse]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

Russia, via the Ukrainian conflict, is having it's buttons pressed. I think it wants to keep it's fight to Ukraine only, but with the NATO and EU support for Ukraine (bewildering that you ignore that whilst pointing to the Iran support for Russia),

That’s about the most ludicrous take on regional politics as I’ve ever seen. Russia having its buttons pressed? How about maybe, you know, not invading a peaceful democracy and blowing up buildings full of civilians for five years? Just a suggestion, maybe stop trying to wipe an entire nation off the face of the map and see if that improves things a bit.

 

NATO and the EU are supplying weapons to Ukraine so that they can keep existing as a country. Iran is supplying drones to Russia so they can blow up children in their sleep. You’re asking why I support one and have a problem with the other?

7 minutes ago, egg said:

I don't think its mentality is expansionist in the same way as Israel.

I’ve no idea how a sane adult can hold that option bout Russia.

[egg]

16 minutes ago, whelk said:

I believe it is in-built prejudice tbh. Quite tangible for those that don’t want to think to hard about other things. As burne out with your defence of Iran. Tell you what I’ll buy you a ticket to Tel Aviv or Tehran for a city break. Which one do you want? Guess what you can protest against the regime in one and not the other.

I wouldn't travel to and support the economy of either, in the same way as I won't travel to the US or Russia. 

Your belief that people's opposition to the Israeli state can only be borne of prejudice, rather than a reaction to their ideology and behaviour, is pretty disappointing but if that's your wiring, so be it. 

Ditto the hard thinking comment. Those with a lack of thinking accept the sales pitch and believe that the Iranians are evil and that anyone who opposes the Israeli regime and/or ideology must be prejudiced/anti Semitic. 

[Gloucester Saint]

26 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Israeli is a very distant fourth on the list of countries destabilising the world. Russia, Iran and the USA are all far more problematic.

I agree with your top four, but not 🇮🇱 being a distant fourth under the Mad Bens. Under another government, they wouldn’t even make my top 4.

I’d go:

=1 to US and Russia

=3 Iran and *Israel

Edited 3 hours ago by Gloucester Saint

[Gloucester Saint]

37 minutes ago, whelk said:

I hope they do but amazing that with all the shit going on in the world only Israel is visible to musicians and footballers

Russia are also banned from all major sporting competitions, if they weren’t hardly anyone would play them, and America are heading that way if Trump won’t accept defeat in November. Wouldn’t be upset if Iran were banned from international football. Trump has had loads of artists take injunctions against him to stop using their material. 

[egg]

9 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

That’s about the most ludicrous take on regional politics as I’ve ever seen. Russia having its buttons pressed? How about maybe, you know, not invading a peaceful democracy and blowing up buildings full of civilians for five years? Just a suggestion, maybe stop trying to wipe an entire nation off the face of the map and see if that improves things a bit.

NATO and the EU are supplying weapons to Ukraine so that they can keep existing as a country. Iran is supplying drones to Russia so they can blow up children in their sleep. You’re asking why I support one and have a problem with the other?

I’ve no idea how a sane adult can hold that option bout Russia.

Separate the invasion from the aftermath. Russian invasion was ridiculous and sparked this. No question. Since then,  drones striking its beaches, it's oil and civillian infrastructure, etc, is intended to press it's buttons. 

That's being done with NATO (British) drones. The reaction to that is being felt by Ukraine only, but there's a risk beyond that. 

Re the rest, no disrespect, but you have a very narrow and blinkered view. The NATO supply of weapons has killed civilians and damaged civilian infrastructure. Nobody should support that, or not understand the potential risk beyond the Ukrainian borders. 

 

 

[egg]

3 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Russia are also banned from all major sporting competitions, if they weren’t hardly anyone would play them, and America are heading that way if Trump won’t accept defeat in November. Wouldn’t be upset if Iran were banned from international football. Trump has had loads of artists take injunctions against him to stop using their material. 

Should Israel be banned from international sport? 

[Farmer Saint]

Just now, egg said:

Should Israel be banned from international sport? 

I think they should be, but I also think Iran should.

[Lighthouse]

44 minutes ago, egg said:

Separate the invasion from the aftermath. Russian invasion was ridiculous and sparked this. No question. Since then,  drones striking its beaches, it's oil and civillian infrastructure, etc, is intended to press it's buttons. 

That's being done with NATO (British) drones. The reaction to that is being felt by Ukraine only, but there's a risk beyond that. 

Re the rest, no disrespect, but you have a very narrow and blinkered view. The NATO supply of weapons has killed civilians and damaged civilian infrastructure. Nobody should support that, or not understand the potential risk beyond the Ukrainian borders. 

"Look guys, I know we invaded your country five years ago with the expressed intention of wiping it out, saying you don’t have any right to exist, blowing up schools and hospitals, committing war crimes, raping teenage girls and dumping their corpses in the streets. We’re still really keen on doing all of this, we’re throwing every man we’ve got into the Donbas meat grinder to try and conquer your land and launching as many drones as we can get into civili buildings with no intention of giving up and leaving you alone…

 

…. But these retaliations are just completely unfair. Blowing up our oil refineries is really bad for our exports and where the f**k are we supposed to get our waffle makers from if you keep blowing up our Wildberries depots?! From now on, please could you only employ retaliation we don’t actually care about, like a pop concert where everyone is waving flags or some strongly worded #nomoreinvasion tweets."

[whelk]

12 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

"Look guys, I know we invaded your country five years ago with the expressed intention of wiping it out, saying you don’t have any right to exist, blowing up schools and hospitals, committing war crimes, raping teenage girls and dumping their corpses in the streets. We’re still really keen on doing all of this, we’re throwing every man we’ve got into the Donbas meat grinder to try and conquer your land and launching as many drones as we can get into civili buildings with no intention of giving up and leaving you alone…

 

…. But these retaliations are just completely unfair. Blowing up our oil refineries is really bad for our exports and where the f**k are we supposed to get our waffle makers from if you keep blowing up our Wildberries depots?! From now on, please could you only employ retaliation we don’t actually care about, like a pop concert where everyone is waving flags or some strongly worded #nomoreinvasion tweets."

Sounds like George Galloway’s take. Frightening how unclear some are about allies and enemies of the West. Although Trump has made it all less stable.

[egg]

Just now, whelk said:

Sounds like George Galloway’s take. Frightening how unclear some are about allies and enemies of the West. Although Trump has made it all less stable.

Galloway's take is that NATO triggered the war using Ukraine as it's proxy. That's just nuts. Where he has a point is that NATO gear being used to kill Russian civilians increases the risk to NATO states and their civilians. I'm not sure how that's disputable. 

[badgerx16]

39 minutes ago, egg said:

Galloway's take is that NATO triggered the war using Ukraine as it's proxy. That's just nuts. Where he has a point is that NATO gear being used to kill Russian civilians increases the risk to NATO states and their civilians. I'm not sure how that's disputable. 

The question is "Do we ( the West ) want Ukraine to exist as a free and independent country". If we do, we cannot proscribe what they do with the weapons we supply them with. Unless the Russian civilian population get a small taste of what Ukrainians have had many years of, they will continue to bury their heads in the sand and accept the SMO as something happening beyond their cares.

Why do you think the only openly anti-war party in Russia was banned from last week's General Election ?

 

[egg]

5 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

The question is "Do we ( the West ) want Ukraine to exist as a free and independent country". If we do, we cannot proscribe what they do with the weapons we supply them with. Unless the Russian civilian population get a small taste of what Ukrainians have had many years of, they will continue to bury their heads in the sand and accept the SMO as something happening beyond their cares.

Why do you think the only openly anti-war party in Russia was banned from last week's General Election ?

The answer, of course is that we want Ukraine to survive. In supporting them, however, the risk to their supporters increases. I think it's a risk we must take btw, but it's a risk that cannot be ignored. 

Regardless, this deviates from the subject of the thread, and my point lighthouse. 

My point that got him heated was that I see Israel as more expansionist than Russia, and a greater threat to peace. We then went down a rabbit hole. 

[AlexLaw76]

Just like Russia, Israel should be banned from all major international / continental sporting events.

Incredible that they have not been

 

[badgerx16]

12 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Just like Russia, Israel should be banned from all major international / continental sporting events.

Incredible that they have not been

 

Make them members of the Asian federations, ( they are not part of Europe ).

Edited 58 minutes ago by badgerx16

[hypochondriac]

3 hours ago, egg said:

We'll agree to differ re Israel and Iran.

The US destabilised Iran, and empowered Israel, which in turn has destabilised the whole middle east.

Russia, via the Ukrainian conflict, is having it's buttons pressed. I think it wants to keep it's fight to Ukraine only, but with the NATO and EU support for Ukraine (bewildering that you ignore that whilst pointing to the Iran support for Russia), I fear there's something brewing. We agree that they're a huge issue though, but I don't think its mentality is expansionist in the same way as Israel.

The US, absolutely, it's lost the plot. 

There are no words for this post. Full George Galloway and Tucker Carlson. The idea that a sensible person thinks Russia isn't expansionist and that they want to keep their 'fight' to Ukraine only (as if that's acceptable even if it were true) is a level of propaganda swallowing that I didn't consider possible. Have you ever listened to Putin opine at length about his version of history?