Israel

[Farmer Saint]

The issue is not Islam, the issue is extremists - irrespective of religion/political beliefs. As extremism becomes more embedded in politics we're going to see expansion in this area (see recent Charlie Kirk murder for instance).

Let's not kid ourselves - without the horrendous treatment of Gazan's by Israel this would not have happened, and their behaviour will drive a huge amount of Gazan's/Syrian's/Lebanese Muslims to extremist sides of the Islamist faith. However, that's not to say the bloke who carried this out wouldn't have perpetrated other attacks on other people in time.

Let's not forget, there are hundreds of millions of practising Muslims who do so peacefully.

Extremism is the enemy here. Unfortunately as a world, whether through politics or religion, that is the way we seem to be going, and frankly I don't really know how to solve it.

[iansums]

34 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

The issue is not Islam, the issue is extremists - irrespective of religion/political beliefs. As extremism becomes more embedded in politics we're going to see expansion in this area (see recent Charlie Kirk murder for instance).

Let's not kid ourselves - without the horrendous treatment of Gazan's by Israel this would not have happened, and their behaviour will drive a huge amount of Gazan's/Syrian's/Lebanese Muslims to extremist sides of the Islamist faith. However, that's not to say the bloke who carried this out wouldn't have perpetrated other attacks on other people in time.

Let's not forget, there are hundreds of millions of practising Muslims who do so peacefully.

Extremism is the enemy here. Unfortunately as a world, whether through politics or religion, that is the way we seem to be going, and frankly I don't really know how to solve it.

Islamic extremists were killing people on our streets before October 7th.

[iansums]

10 hours ago, egg said:

Nonsense. It's a recognised thing (UN, and elsewhere) albeit rarely recognised by some for their own reasons. 

Honestly, I couldn’t give a shit what the UN or anyone else says, for me it’s a made up word.

[badgerx16]

6 minutes ago, iansums said:

Honestly, I couldn’t give a shit what the UN or anyone else says, for me it’s a made up word.

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious is a made up word, islamophobia is not. ( Unless you also think arachnophobia is 'made up' ).

Edited Friday at 08:03 by badgerx16

[Sheaf Saint]

11 hours ago, iansums said:

Fair enough but isn’t a phobia an irrational fear? A fear of Islam seems perfectly rational to me.

The meaning of phobia in this instance is 'aversion to' rather than 'fear of'. 

Semantics aside, Islamophobia is every bit as real a thing as antisemitism is, and is clearly evident in your last sentence. 'Fearing' the entirety of the Islamic diaspora because of the actions of a tiny minority of nutty extremists is no different from blaming all Jews for the actions of the Israeli government.

[hypochondriac]

Why was this man in the UK? How did he remain undetected? What made him into an extremist? Who knew and helped him? Why was he not stopped earlier? Why is it particular types of people who carry out attacks of this type? How can we reduce the likelihood of this happening again in the future? These are all questions the government should be asking and finding answers for.

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

The issue is not Islam, the issue is extremists - irrespective of religion/political beliefs. As extremism becomes more embedded in politics we're going to see expansion in this area (see recent Charlie Kirk murder for instance).

Let's not kid ourselves - without the horrendous treatment of Gazan's by Israel this would not have happened, and their behaviour will drive a huge amount of Gazan's/Syrian's/Lebanese Muslims to extremist sides of the Islamist faith. However, that's not to say the bloke who carried this out wouldn't have perpetrated other attacks on other people in time.

Let's not forget, there are hundreds of millions of practising Muslims who do so peacefully.

Extremism is the enemy here. Unfortunately as a world, whether through politics or religion, that is the way we seem to be going, and frankly I don't really know how to solve it.

There appear to be a larger number of extremists claiming to be of the Islamic faith committing crimes and atrocities in the UK than other religious groups. 

[badgerx16]

29 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Why was this man in the UK? 

He was brought here as a very young child when his parents left Syria, and was granted citizenship in 2006 when he was 16.

https://www.itv.com/news/2025-10-03/jihad-al-shamie-what-we-know-about-the-manchester-synagogue-attacker

Edited Friday at 08:39 by badgerx16

[Lighthouse]

11 hours ago, LuckyNumber7 said:

Yet only one of them appears to still be stuck in the dark ages.

Almost all religions are stuck in the dark ages. The main differences are in how tenaciously various people practice them to what extent the ruling authority is able to remain secular in any given country.

[egg]

54 minutes ago, iansums said:

Honestly, I couldn’t give a shit what the UN or anyone else says, for me it’s a made up word.

Brilliant!  Mate, every word isn't a word until it becomes one. Islamophobia is a thing, as this thread demonstrates. 

[egg]

41 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

There appear to be a larger number of extremists claiming to be of the Islamic faith committing crimes and atrocities in the UK than other religious groups. 

I dunno, there seems to be a lot of likely atheists (or possibly Christians, who knows) out there. I mean, suggesting that people burn down hotels housing brown people feels somewhat extreme. 

[egg]

50 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Why was this man in the UK? How did he remain undetected? What made him into an extremist? Who knew and helped him? Why was he not stopped earlier? Why is it particular types of people who carry out attacks of this type? How can we reduce the likelihood of this happening again in the future? These are all questions the government should be asking and finding answers for.

Have you not realised that the lad came here as a kid and is British. That's why he was here. He hadn't crossed the radar of the authorities. Whether he should have will doubtless be looked at. 

 

[Lighthouse]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

I dunno, there seems to be a lot of likely atheists (or possibly Christians, who knows) out there. I mean, suggesting that people burn down hotels housing brown people feels somewhat extreme. 

That's a bit of an eroneous statement though, nobody has ever committed an ill deed in the name of, or under the influence of atheism. That's why when people talk about Hitler and Stalin being atheists, accurate or not, it's a moot point. It's like saying Ted Bundy and Myra Hindley didn't believe in the Easter Bunny.

[egg]

Just now, Lighthouse said:

That's a bit of an eroneous statement though, nobody has ever committed an ill deed in the name of, or under the influence of atheism. That's why when people talk about Hitler and Stalin being atheists, accurate or not, it's a moot point. It's like saying Ted Bundy and Myra Hindley didn't believe in the Easter Bunny.

If people can take an extreme stance on the name of their god, they can surely take it in the name of no god. Alternatively, the idiots I referred to were behaving in an extreme manner in the name of nationalism. The point is that extremism comes in various forms, and certainly not just in the name of religion. Extreme Zionism is another. 

[Farmer Saint]

1 hour ago, iansums said:

Islamic extremists were killing people on our streets before October 7th.

I know, that's why I said this:

2 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

However, that's not to say the bloke who carried this out wouldn't have perpetrated other attacks on other people in time.

[Farmer Saint]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

There appear to be a larger number of extremists claiming to be of the Islamic faith committing crimes and atrocities in the UK than other religious groups. 

Yep, don't disagree with that. There is probably a higher percentage of Islamist extremists in the world that Christian extremists. But as a pure percentage it is still very low, hence why it is the extremists that need to be dealt with. 

There were 18,000 gun murders alone in the US last year. I would wager that is a far higher percentage of murderers in that society than there are extremist Islamists, and you should be far more scared of Americans than you are of Islamist extremists.

[iansums]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

There appear to be a larger number of extremists claiming to be of the Islamic faith committing crimes and atrocities in the UK than other religious groups. 

This is exactly the point.

[iansums]

31 minutes ago, egg said:

Brilliant!  Mate, every word isn't a word until it becomes one. Islamophobia is a thing, as this thread demonstrates. 

I’m Islamaphobic then, happy with that, thank you.

[egg]

1 minute ago, iansums said:

I’m Islamaphobic then, happy with that, thank you.

You won't find me disagreeing with you. 

[Farmer Saint]

1 minute ago, iansums said:

I’m Islamaphobic then, happy with that, thank you.

You are allowed to be. It shows a lack of understanding, but you are allowed to be.

What I would ask is why? 

[iansums]

5 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

You are allowed to be. It shows a lack of understanding, but you are allowed to be.

What I would ask is why? 

I think you know why but thanks for being so patronising.

[egg]

5 minutes ago, iansums said:

I think you know why but thanks for being so patronising.

There was nothing patronising in his comment. It was an acknowledgement that you can take that stance, which you can. 

I repeat his question. Why?

If someone admitted being racist or anti-Semitic, it would be reasonable to ask why. The same applies here. 

Edited Friday at 09:39 by egg

[Farmer Saint]

16 minutes ago, iansums said:

I think you know why but thanks for being so patronising.

I'm not being patronising, or I certainly don't mean to be.

I'm just asking if you were walking down the street and saw someone in a hijab, would you be scared, would you think poorly of them, what?

[Lighthouse]

47 minutes ago, egg said:

If people can take an extreme stance on the name of their god, they can surely take it in the name of no god. Alternatively, the idiots I referred to were behaving in an extreme manner in the name of nationalism. The point is that extremism comes in various forms, and certainly not just in the name of religion. Extreme Zionism is another. 

You can't take an extreme stance in the name of nothing, that doesn't make sense. You can be atheist and still hate Muslims, as you could if you were a Christian or a druid, but you can't be an extreme one by definition. 

[iansums]

7 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

I'm not being patronising, or I certainly don't mean to be.

I'm just asking if you were walking down the street and saw someone in a hijab, would you be scared, would you think poorly of them, what?

Scared? Depends how big they are. 😀Hijab, not bothered; Burqa, don’t want to see it, should be banned IMO

[egg]

4 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

You can't take an extreme stance in the name of nothing, that doesn't make sense. You can be atheist and still hate Muslims, as you could if you were a Christian or a druid, but you can't be an extreme one by definition. 

I disagree. Rejection of a belief is support of that rejection. That can be fierce, or extreme if you will. Anti Christian beliefs by people of nil faith, for example, have a  can be taken to extremes.

[iansums]

27 minutes ago, egg said:

There was nothing patronising in his comment. It was an acknowledgement that he can take that stance, which you can. 

I repeat his question. Why?

If someone admitted being racist or anti-Semitic, it would be reasonable to ask why. The same applies here. 

Sorry, off to the airport shortly so not enough time for a full answer. Just think a vast number of Muslims practice a more extreme form of their religion which is anti western and not compatible with our society. Added to their views on homosexuality and non believers (infidels). As I said before, it is a minority but far more than in any other religion.

[egg]

1 minute ago, iansums said:

Sorry, off to the airport shortly so not enough time for a full answer. Just think a vast number of Muslims practice a more extreme form of their religion which is anti western and not compatible with our society. Added to their views on homosexuality and non believers (infidels). As I said before, it is a minority but far more than in any other religion.

Thanks. I don't support your views, but do appreciate the honesty. Safe travels. 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, egg said:

I dunno, there seems to be a lot of likely atheists (or possibly Christians, who knows) out there. I mean, suggesting that people burn down hotels housing brown people feels somewhat extreme. 

The fact you don't know the religion of the other group tells it's own story. We have a problem with extremist Islam in this country that's just a fact. 

[hypochondriac]

55 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Yep, don't disagree with that. There is probably a higher percentage of Islamist extremists in the world that Christian extremists. But as a pure percentage it is still very low, hence why it is the extremists that need to be dealt with. 

There were 18,000 gun murders alone in the US last year. I would wager that is a far higher percentage of murderers in that society than there are extremist Islamists, and you should be far more scared of Americans than you are of Islamist extremists.

What relevance does guns murders in America have to do with terrorist attacks in the UK? It's not some nebulous extremism. The stats clearly show that we have a problem with nutters who believe an interpretation of Islam that is extremist. The inability to call that out for what it is has already done a lot of harm. Yes there are other extremist threats from elsewhere too but to deny that Islamism isn't a huge issue is just perverse.

[egg]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

The fact you don't know the religion of the other group tells it's own story. We have a problem with extremist Islam in this country that's just a fact. 

Extremism is not just a religious thing. Beliefs go beyond that. You know that. 

[Farmer Saint]

11 minutes ago, iansums said:

Scared? Depends how big they are. 😀Hijab, not bothered; Burqa, don’t want to see it, should be banned IMO

Then what are you claiming is the issue you have because I don't know what it is? 

42 minutes ago, iansums said:

49 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

You are allowed to be. It shows a lack of understanding, but you are allowed to be.

What I would ask is why? 

I think you know why but thanks for being so patronising.

 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, egg said:

If people can take an extreme stance on the name of their god, they can surely take it in the name of no god. Alternatively, the idiots I referred to were behaving in an extreme manner in the name of nationalism. The point is that extremism comes in various forms, and certainly not just in the name of religion. Extreme Zionism is another. 

Who has ever suggested that extremism is only ever in the name of religion? 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, egg said:

Extremism is not just a religious thing. Beliefs go beyond that. You know that. 

No one has ever said that. We have a big problem with extremist Islam in this country and in many other countries too. That doesn't mean there aren't other forms of extremism. Why not just be honest? You know we have a big problem with it. It's not going to make you islamophobic for pointing out the obvious.

[Farmer Saint]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

What relevance does guns murders in America have to do with terrorist attacks in the UK? It's not some nebulous extremism. The stats clearly show that we have a problem with nutters who believe an interpretation of Islam that is extremist. The inability to call that out for what it is has already done a lot of harm. Yes there are other extremist threats from elsewhere too but to deny that Islamism isn't a huge issue is just perverse.

You're saying you're scared of Muslims, or prejudice against them due to the amount of islamic extremists. Do you feel the same way about Americans? I'm just trying to drive some perspective here.

Islamism by itself isn't a huge issue. Extremism is a huge issue.

[iansums]

2 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Then what are you claiming is the issue you have because I don't know what it is? 

 

Just answered direct question regarding Hijab, please see my reply to Egg

[hypochondriac]

13 minutes ago, egg said:

I disagree. Rejection of a belief is support of that rejection. That can be fierce, or extreme if you will. Anti Christian beliefs by people of nil faith, for example, have a  can be taken to extremes.

No one is murdering Jews or blowing themselves up at pop concerts in the name of atheism. Even if there is an isolated case of a terrorist atheist it rather pales in comparison compared to the rate and number committed in the name of extremist Islam.

[iansums]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

No one has ever said that. We have a big problem with extremist Islam in this country and in many other countries too. That doesn't mean there aren't other forms of extremism. Why not just be honest? You know we have a big problem with it. It's not going to make you islamophobic for pointing out the obvious.

I think it will 🙄

[egg]

10 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Who has ever suggested that extremism is only ever in the name of religion? 

If you weren't implying that by this comment "The fact you don't know the religion of the other group tells it's own story", what was your point? 

Those idiots had an extreme view to the extent that they wanted to burn brown people to death. 

People have extreme views, and take extreme steps,  whether they be Christian, islamic, atheist, unknown, racist, nationalist, on the streets of the UK, in US schools ,or anywhere. 

Yes, a tiny minority of Muslims take extremism further than people of other faiths, but you seem fixated on this one particular group. 

Edited Friday at 10:27 by egg

[Farmer Saint]

6 minutes ago, iansums said:

Just answered direct question regarding Hijab, please see my reply to Egg

Ok, but what you're scared of is extremists, not Muslim's, which is wholly reasonable, and you also don't agree with Burkha's.

Where you going away to anyway? Have a good time.

Edited Friday at 10:27 by Farmer Saint

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Farmer Saint said:

You're saying you're scared of Muslims, or prejudice against them due to the amount of islamic extremists. Do you feel the same way about Americans? I'm just trying to drive some perspective here.

Islamism by itself isn't a huge issue. Extremism is a huge issue.

I didn't say either of those things. I said that the UK has a problem with extremist Islam. I have huge disagreement with some of the mainstream views of those who practice Islam because they are bigoted and wrong. Nowhere have I said I'm scared or prejudice towards all Muslims, simply that there are too many in this country with objectionable views and too many that are extremist. By refusing to acknowledge the real problem with the extreme interpretation of Islam (and actually some of the problems with more moderate versions as well.) you will never be able to reduce the problem. Pakistani rape gangs happened at least in part because people were too scared to call put the ideology that viewed English girls as fair game because they weren't Islamic which included branding sone of these girls like pieces of meat. Their interpretation of their religion gave the a pass to do this on a huge scale and people covered it up. Similarly with Islamist terrorist attacks.

[Farmer Saint]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

If you weren't implying that by this comment "The fact you don't know the religion of the other group tells it's own story", what was your point? 

Those idiots had an extreme view to the extent that they wanted to burn brown people to death. 

People have extreme views, and take extreme steps,  whether they be Christian, islamic, atheist, unknown, racist, nationalist, on the streets of the UK, in US schools ,or anywhere. 

Yes, Muslims seemingly take extremism further than people of other faiths, but you seem fixated on this one particular group. 

It's because his wife's Muslim.

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

If you weren't implying that by this comment "The fact you don't know the religion of the other group tells it's own story", what was your point? 

Those idiots had an extreme view to the extent that they wanted to burn brown people to death. 

People have extreme views, and take extreme steps,  whether they be Christian, islamic, atheist, unknown, racist, nationalist, on the streets of the UK, in US schools ,or anywhere. 

Yes, Muslims seemingly take extremism further than people of other faiths, but you seem fixated on this one particular group. 

My point was that your suggesting that atheist extremist ideology is leading to terror attacks at the same frequency as those committed in the name of extremist Islam which is clearly untrue. If we have Christian extremists murdering Jews and blowing themselves up at pop concerts or on the tube in the name of Jesus then I can assure you I'd be equally fixated on that particular group.

[egg]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I didn't say either of those things. I said that the UK has a problem with extremist Islam. I have huge disagreement with some of the mainstream views of those who practice Islam because they are bigoted and wrong. Nowhere have I said I'm scared or prejudice towards all Muslims, simply that there are too many in this country with objectionable views and too many that are extremist. By refusing to acknowledge the real problem with the extreme interpretation of Islam (and actually some of the problems with more moderate versions as well.) you will never be able to reduce the problem. Pakistani rape gangs happened at least in part because people were too scared to call put the ideology that viewed English girls as fair game because they weren't Islamic which included branding sone of these girls like pieces of meat. Their interpretation of their religion gave the a pass to do this on a huge scale and people covered it up. Similarly with Islamist terrorist attacks.

Seems he intended to reply to Iansums. 

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Ok, but what you're scared of is extremists, not Muslim's, which is wholly reasonable, and you also don't agree with Burkha's.

Where you going away to?

And if a significant number of these extremists claim to be following Islam and claim to be committing their acts in the name of that religion that isn't noteworthy or worth thinking about ?

[egg]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

My point was that your suggesting that atheist extremist ideology is leading to terror attacks at the same frequency as those committed in the name of extremist Islam which is clearly untrue. If we have Christian extremists murdering Jews and blowing themselves up at pop concerts or on the tube in the name of Jesus then I can assure you I'd be equally fixated on that particular group.

Please quote where I said that. 

Thanks. 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Seems he intended to reply to Iansums. 

Fair enough .

[Farmer Saint]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

I didn't say either of those things. I said that the UK has a problem with extremist Islam. I have huge disagreement with some of the mainstream views of those who practice Islam because they are bigoted and wrong. Nowhere have I said I'm scared or prejudice towards all Muslims, simply that there are too many in this country with objectionable views and too many that are extremist. By refusing to acknowledge the real problem with the extreme interpretation of Islam (and actually some of the problems with more moderate versions as well.) you will never be able to reduce the problem. Pakistani rape gangs happened at least in part because people were too scared to call put the ideology that viewed English girls as fair game because they weren't Islamic which included branding sone of these girls like pieces of meat. Their interpretation of their religion gave the a pass to do this on a huge scale and people covered it up. Similarly with Islamist terrorist attacks.

If in those riots last year someone managed to actually burn a hotel down, that would have killed more people than every Islamic attack in this country combined. It was purely by luck that we got away with that.

Nobody is saying that Islamic Extremists are not a problem. That would be stupid. However, extremists in general are a problem, regardless of religion, political leanings etc. 

[Lighthouse]

20 minutes ago, egg said:

I disagree. Rejection of a belief is support of that rejection. That can be fierce, or extreme if you will. Anti Christian beliefs by people of nil faith, for example, have a  can be taken to extremes.

You’ve done a sleight of hand there, those are two different things. Anybody of any religion can have extreme anti-Christian views, that’s not the same thing as extremely not believing in God.

I can say with almost absolute certainty that there is absolutely zero revealed truth in the Torah, for example. There’s not a person in the world who believes in the teachings of the Torah less than me. This doesn’t make me the world’s most extreme anti-Semite.

[Farmer Saint]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

And if a significant number of these extremists claim to be following Islam and claim to be committing their acts in the name of that religion that isn't noteworthy or worth thinking about ?

What is that significant number, because I doubt it is a significant number? What percentage do you think are extremists Islamists in this country?