Proof that we are no longer a youthful team

[SaintBobby]

First win of the season away at Derby : From the starting XI, only two outfield players were aged over 30 and seven were aged 21 or uder.

 

Most recent win away at Ipswich: From the starting XI, four of our outfield players were aged over 30 and only two aged 21 or under.

[trousers]

Our average age is still around the mid-20s mark though, give or take

[Window Cleaner]

First win of the season away at Derby : From the starting XI, only two outfield players were aged over 30 and seven were aged 21 or uder.

 

Most recent win away at Ipswich: From the starting XI, four of our outfield players were aged over 30 and only two aged 21 or under.

 

Surely Lloyd James,Morgan S and DMcG are all 21 or under, Morgan being the youngest at 19.

[SaintBobby]

Surely Lloyd James,Morgan S and DMcG are all 21 or under, Morgan being the youngest at 19.

 

I cheated a bit - because McGoldrick and Surman have both turned 22 since the start of the season.

 

James and Schneiderlin were our only u-21s last night.

[Saint_clark]

Our average age is still around the mid-20s mark though, give or take

 

Which isn't very young.

I'm sure 25 year olds do not consider themselves to be kids.

[eelpie]

Perhaps we are no longer novices?

[SaintBobby]

Our average age is still around the mid-20s mark though, give or take

 

Average age of outfield v Derby: 22

Average age of outfield v Ipswich: 26

 

Ok, 4 years doesn't sound much, but given the average age for any English league team is going to be somewhere in the 20s, it's quite a leap.

[Window Cleaner]

I cheated a bit - because McGoldrick and Surman have both turned 22 since the start of the season.

 

James and Schneiderlin were our only u-21s last night.

 

 

McG is 21 I think, 29-11-87.

[NickG]

Last season we would not have used Lallana, Gillett, DMG, James, and Schneiderlin as first 11 players.

 

All are young or products of acedemy.

 

They have replaced Wright, Idiakez, Safri, Viafara, Rasiak etc.

 

We are more reliant on these players still.

[ludgershallsaint]

Last season we would not have used Lallana, Gillett, DMG, James, and Schneiderlin as first 11 players.

 

All are young or products of acedemy.

 

They have replaced Wright, Idiakez, Safri, Viafara, Rasiak etc.

 

We are more reliant on these players still.

 

If we had spent £1.2M on a player (Schneiderlin) last season he would have played. Lallana would have been involved this season regardless as he was starting to break through last season.

 

That leaves 3.

[Paul Chuckle]

But in the long run the likes of Gobbern, McGlaggon, Patterson, Mills will all be better for this seasons experiences

 

Gillett is 23 i think but he wasnt getting a look until this season and is turning in to a useful player. If anything i reckon he'd have gone by now had he not been given the chance.

[NickG]

If we had spent £1.2M on a player (Schneiderlin) last season he would have played. Lallana would have been involved this season regardless as he was starting to break through last season.

 

That leaves 3.

 

Lallana - doubt he would have gone from hardly being considered as sub to first 11. Fact is he is. And would we have spent 1.2M on teenager?

[saint_ed]

The key point is having experience in key positions. The spine of the team is where we have our most experienced players and that is of paramount importance in any team.

[ludgershallsaint]

Lallana - doubt he would have gone from hardly being considered as sub to first 11.

I see it differently. Pearson used him and I believe he would have been involved.

 

And would we have spent 1.2M on teenager?

 

Probably not. But what's that got to do with it? You can't claim him as part of the youth revolution; if he'd been 17 and on a free then okay. However, at 1.2M and 19 years old he is an expensive signing from whom we are yet to get much return from.

 

Do you really think that sort of transfer fee for an untried kid in the situation we found ourselves in the summer was a wise use of funds?

 

The "Dutch experiment" has failed. We are just like most other clubs in our division now - a few kids and some older pros who've been around a bit.

[NickG]

I see it differently. Pearson used him and I believe he would have been involved.

 

don't think he ever started him and used him about twice as sub for total of about 15 mins!:confused:

 

Probably not. But what's that got to do with it? You can't claim him as part of the youth revolution; if he'd been 17 and on a free then okay. However, at 1.2M and 19 years old he is an expensive signing from whom we are yet to get much return from.

 

Do you really think that sort of transfer fee for an untried kid in the situation we found ourselves in the summer was a wise use of funds?

 

The "Dutch experiment" has failed. We are just like most other clubs in our division now - a few kids and some older pros who've been around a bit.

 

 

what exactly was this dutch experiment?

If you mean Jan -then yes it did.

But we are improving with Dutch manager, dutch CB he signed, playing quick passing football, attacking midfielders as fullbacks, and much of the team from youth ranks who didn't get a look in last year!!

[um pahars]

what exactly was this dutch experiment?

If you mean Jan -then yes it did.

But we are improving with Dutch manager, dutch CB he signed, playing quick passing football, attacking midfielders as fullbacks, and much of the team from youth ranks who didn't get a look in last year!!

 

Have you seen any recent games, have you read any recent interviews, have you not picked up on little snippets on here or in the media, have you noticed the line ups, the tactics etc etc etc.

 

Fortunately, the only thing Dutch about the current set up is the nationality of the Coach (I don't think he's manager).

 

We're back to a much more traditional style, two up front, a good blend of young and old, keeping it simple and people knowing their jobs et al.

 

Are you really saying that Wotte has just taken over and maintained the status quo, in which case how do you account for the mini revival under his leadership?

[NickG]

Yes I have.

 

Wotte has changed a lot.

 

How would you define the Dutch experiment that is talked about on here?

[um pahars]

Yes I have.

 

Wotte has changed a lot.

 

How would you define the Dutch experiment that is talked about on here?

 

Just go back to the OS archives ref all the stuff about Total Football, then look at the sides he was putting out, the tactics and formation, use of youngsters, one up top, flexible 4-3-2-1 to 4-1-2-1-1-1 to 4-2-2-1-1 teams, believing the youngsters can't play with the old players, technique over physique, the fluid movment, wingers, etc etc etc and you'll get Poortvliet's brand of Total Football and the Dutch experiment

 

Thankfully Wotte has adopted a more "British" approach to the Championship and it is paying dividends.

 

Wotte has gone on the record a number of times about the changes he has implemented and the results are there for all to see.

 

If you can't see this and think we are playing the same style as under Poortvliet, then I'm not really sure what to say.

 

So what do you put the change in fortunes down to then???

 

Just a mere change at the top???

[Window Cleaner]

Just go back to the OS archives ref all the stuff about Total Football, then look at the sides he was putting out, the tactics and formation, use of youngsters, one up top, flexible 4-3-2-1 to 4-1-2-1-1-1 to 4-2-2-1-1 teams, believing the youngsters can't play with the old players, technique over physique, the fluid movment, wingers, etc etc etc and you'll get Poortvliet's brand of Total Football and the Dutch experiment

 

Thankfully Wotte has adopted a more "British" approach to the Championship and it is paying dividends.

 

Wotte has gone on the record a number of times about the changes he has implemented and the results are there for all to see.

 

If you can't see this and think we are playing the same style as under Poortvliet, then I'm not really sure what to say.

 

So what do you put the change in fortunes down to then???

 

Just a mere change at the top???

 

I think Um ,that the only real change is that we have strikers who actually strike.When you can't score you get jittery and things usually go badly for you. Score early (as we have done recently) and football becomes a different game. It's harder to score when you're chasing the game.We should have won matches that we lost under Jan Poortvliet solely for the reason that we didn't do what is essential in football, stick the ball in the back of the net as soon as possible.

[um pahars]

I think Um ,that the only real change is that we have strikers who actually strike.When you can't score you get jittery and things usually go badly for you. Score early (as we have done recently) and football becomes a different game. It's harder to score when you're chasing the game.We should have won matches that we lost under Jan Poortvliet solely for the reason that we didn't do what is essential in football, stick the ball in the back of the net as soon as possible.

 

But surely there's more to it than that, not least you're use of the plural strikers, as opposed to playing one up top.

 

We're alot more 4-4-2 (even if one sits whilst the other goes forward). We've heard about changes in training, fitness regimes, preparation etc etc etc. Then of course there's the change with regards the more experiencesd players and the idea of building a team around them (i.e. the spine so many of us were crying out for).

 

Goals are certainly a must in this game, but we have improved just as much (maybe more) at the back. We're a much tighter unit, not trying anything fancy, simple and people doing their jobs.

 

There has been a massive sea change over the last few weeks.

[NickG]

Just go back to the OS archives ref all the stuff about Total Football, then look at the sides he was putting out, the tactics and formation, use of youngsters, one up top, flexible 4-3-2-1 to 4-1-2-1-1-1 to 4-2-2-1-1 teams, believing the youngsters can't play with the old players, technique over physique, the fluid movment, wingers, etc etc etc and you'll get Poortvliet's brand of Total Football and the Dutch experiment

 

Thankfully Wotte has adopted a more "British" approach to the Championship and it is paying dividends.

 

Wotte has gone on the record a number of times about the changes he has implemented and the results are there for all to see.

 

If you can't see this and think we are playing the same style as under Poortvliet, then I'm not really sure what to say.

 

So what do you put the change in fortunes down to then???

 

Just a mere change at the top???

 

I know you enjoy your arguements but you are creating one that isn't there!

 

I am not saying things haven't changed, clearly they have.

 

But we did use Stern John and Svensson at the start of the season.

 

There are many things that have been kept.

 

He isn't playing 4-4-2 either.

[Window Cleaner]

But surely there's more to it than that, not least you're use of the plural strikers, as opposed to playing one up top.

 

We're alot more 4-4-2 (even if one sits whilst the other goes forward). We've heard about changes in training, fitness regimes, preparation etc etc etc. Then of course there's the change with regards the more experiencesd players and the idea of building a team around them (i.e. the spine so many of us were crying out for).

 

Goals are certainly a must in this game, but we have improved just as much (maybe more) at the back. We're a much tighter unit, not trying anything fancy, simple and people doing their jobs.

 

There has been a massive sea change over the last few weeks.

 

I would concede that Size and Saga have made a great difference, scoring at one end and stopping the rot at the other.I think also that Wotte may be a better man manager that Jan, perhaps he even manages Rupert better.

Whether we could afford Saga without the loan fee (I presume we got one) on top of his salary I couldn't say;I do regret though that it was he that was first to go instead of John who I do not rate very much although he scored some vital goals for us last season.I think the failure of the Svensson experiment left us in a bad way and that the coming of Saejis has corrected that for the time being.

[NickG]

I think Um ,that the only real change is that we have strikers who actually strike.When you can't score you get jittery and things usually go badly for you. Score early (as we have done recently) and football becomes a different game. It's harder to score when you're chasing the game.We should have won matches that we lost under Jan Poortvliet solely for the reason that we didn't do what is essential in football, stick the ball in the back of the net as soon as possible.

 

there's a lot in what you say. We had games that we started playing nice football but when we didn't score you could see the confidence slip away infront of your eyes

[um pahars]

I am not saying things haven't changed, clearly they have.

 

So how have they changed then?

[NickG]

New dutch CB making us more solid.

 

Saga returning offering class, workrate and confidence.

 

Gillet returning to form.

 

The team seeming more confident and more of an organised unit.

[um pahars]

I would concede that Size and Saga have made a great difference, scoring at one end and stopping the rot at the other.

 

It's more than just two players.

 

Wotte deserves alot of credit for turning things around, so to suggest it's just down to two players and being a better man manager is probably doing him a great disservice.

 

He has made many changes and should be commended not only for doing that, but for being able to bring them off.

 

We're a shadow of the side we were under Poortvliet.

[NickG]

don't think anyone is saying he doesn't deserve credit, I think he has done great!

 

The thread was about young players -and we still are using a lot more, and ones that didn't previously have much of a chance - Lallana, DMG, Gillett and James

[um pahars]

don't think anyone is saying he doesn't deserve credit, I think he has done great!

 

The thread was about young players -and we still are using a lot more, and ones that didn't previously have much of a chance - Lallana, DMG, Gillett and James

 

Gillett is 23, so we can dismiss him for a start.

 

We are using three in the current line up; Lallana (who came through last season and was always going to feature), David McGoldrick (who I think is one of our weakest players) and James (who in an experienced back 5 is looking much more protected and stronger as a result).

 

This team can easily handle three youngsters, it was the 6/7/8/9 that was causing us problems!!!!!!

 

And that has been the main change for me.

[Paul Chuckle]

So how have they changed then?[/

[NickG]

Gillett is 23, so we can dismiss him for a start.hardly old man, and a youth graduate who was being kept out by journey man and is doing very well

 

We are using three in the current line up; Lallanatwo very small sub appearances only, he wouldn't have been starting the season if we still had Vaifara Safri etc (who came through last season and was always going to feature), David McGoldrick excellent reports on him from those who went and echo, 9 I think they gave him(who I think is one of our weakest players) and James (who in an experienced back 5 is looking much more protected and stronger as a result).

 

This team can easily handle three youngsters, it was the 6/7/8/9 that was causing us problems!!!!!!agree a team of all youngsters is too much, even if they play well young players are more likely to suffer form dips

 

And that has been the main change for me.

 

as above

[um pahars]

as above

 

You're clutching at straws somewhat if you're trying to include Gillett as one of the yougsters. He may be an Academy product, but that does not automatically follow he is young:rolleyes:. 23 is no spring chicken in the football world.

 

Lallana has the quality to break through, whether he would have played as many games is something I accept, but then again I'm not overly sure playing so much is right for his development at this stage, but happy to include him as one of the youngsters.

 

DMG is a marmite player & along with James means we're playing 3 youngsters on a regular basis.

 

Nothing wrong with 3 youngsters in the side particularly if they're augmenting a strong spine, but quite a bit of a change from what Poortvliet was doing.

[NickG]

do you thing those products of youth set up and other younger players would be playing as much if we hadn't got rid of the older players mentioned above?

 

Agree it was too many before, but (disagreeing with OP) I still think we are using more than we would have done

[um pahars]

do you thing those products of youth set up and other younger players would be playing as much if we hadn't got rid of the older players mentioned above?

 

Agree it was too many before, but (disagreeing with OP) I still think we are using more than we would have done

 

I think we would have been playing more youngsters this season than last, both out of financial necessity and also because I think some might actually be better (or at least a better long term bet).

 

I have no problem with youngsters playing their part int he team, but very rarely does a whole team of youngsters perform from the off, and certainly not in the way they Lowe would have liked/hoped for and how he described it at numerous times this season.

 

The whole concept of Poortvliet with a team of youngsters has been found severely wanting, yet we blundered on for 28 games before things came to a head.

 

As far back as last March, Pearson was clear that the youngsters would play a part this season, but I think everyone had what is currently happening in mind (supplementing a spine) as opposed to the mass blooding (and resultant failure) witnessed under Poortvliet.

[SaintRobbie]

First win of the season away at Derby : From the starting XI, only two outfield players were aged over 30 and seven were aged 21 or uder.

 

Most recent win away at Ipswich: From the starting XI, four of our outfield players were aged over 30 and only two aged 21 or under.

 

Lowe failed. Now we're in business.

[david in sweden]

The key point is having experience in key positions. The spine of the team is where we have our most experienced players and that is of paramount importance in any team.

 

 

My thought entirely, saint Ed

 

with 6 experienced players... and 5 " newer recruits ",

it might be described as one of Ted Bates better sides ... " a good balance of youth and experience "

 

Having TOO MANY youngsters at one go, (as we did in the Autumn) is the difference. Now Perry has someone "dependable" in Saijs. to play alongside, Skacel showing a bit of form now he settled, and with Saga and Euell up front...

the younger lads have good role-models, and a bit more time to play themselves in. The youthful midfield ; Lallana, Surman, Schneiderlin, McG. and Gillett - look exciting with so much energy to run around.

 

COYR !!!!

[Saint_clark]

as above

 

Viafara would have left no matter what was going on, he went back to Colombia to raise his child.