where have all our young men gone..

[david in sweden]

from long time ago ..? (with apologies to Pete Seeger).

 

Looking at CCC games quite a few names crop up of former Youth players who passed through Saints ranks on onto ......better things. Mills/Doncaster, Brian Howard/Barnsley, Crainie now Charlton (via Pom**y), Dexter/QPR now loan Forest, Another CH Garry Monk popped up with a winner for Swansea (also have Dyer on loan) and I even saw Mike Williamson's name on someone team sheet...so why have they "made it" when we let them go? Some were sold, some were trouble - but many others just didn't show talent to warrant keeping them when they turned 20. This season we've seen a dozen teenagers get chances, most weren't even up to CCC standard -but at least we saw them.

The problem is, of course that when most (of the above) were on staff as juniors - we were still a (struggling) Prem.side, but not one of them was anywhere near the standard even for CCC football. Teenage stars like Walcott, Bale and Surman who even get a chance in first team are very rare and the best of the rest are pleased to get a place travelling /on bench.

 

We need squad players who are good enough to fill in for injured players and many didn't even get into the reserve side when here. Quite simply few clubs can afford to keep a 16 year old for 6-8 years ..in the hope that he " might " make it...sometime. It happens ..the last name coming to mind was ..Chris Baird (!) but for most of them, they go and maybe do well to get into a Conference side. No-one can really be blamed for missing " late-developers " (Lawrie Mac. let Dennis Wise and Kev Phillips go when they were still apprentices !) but it happens all the time.

 

So my question is, Which young players (we now have) are we ready to let go (based on their " not so unimpressive " showings this year)..

Olle Lancashire, Joseph Mills, Jake Thomson, Matt Paterson, Oscar Gobern..or Schneiderlin, Gasmi, Smith or McLaggon ? Can we afford to keep them? ..and if not. How long before they re-emerge in a higher league side because we could neither play them, or afford to keep them (all) for another 2-3 years ?

Edited 19 April, 2009 by david in sweden

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Lancashire - Had his chance this season but didn't take it . May find his level in L1 .

Thompson /Paterson /McLaggon - all show good potential . Next season should show how good they really are .

Mills/White - Looking to be the best of the bunch . Stars of the future ?

Schneiderlin - Disappointing season , doesn't look like a L1 player to me and injury prone . Off load if we get any offers ?

Gasmi - Apparently not good enough (even in this team) to make the bench . Only a loan so return to sender surely .

Smith - Mr Wotte likes him , but nobody else does . Out of contract this summer anyway .

Gobern - Big lad could be useful , but still an unknown quality at this time .

 

I agree you never really known with young players but you have to make a judgment , learn to live with it and move on .

[Andy_Porter]

Keep them all apart from the two french lads.

[SoccerMom]

What did occur to me, however, is that with the dismal display of the so-called experienced pros yesterday, perhaps it would have been better to play those who still have something to play for? If it really is all just a matter of attitude (I don't buy it that this team isn't good enough - I've been down to Staplewood with the nipper and IMHO there's something deeply, deeply wrong with the coaching and managing) then why not give the job to those for whom it means something? The youngsters are unlikely to move on next season, so ought to have a vested interest in last-gasp heroics.

[Kenilworthy]

> I've been down to Staplewood with the nipper and IMHO there's something deeply, deeply wrong with the coaching and managing

 

That has been my impression too. But I only get to see the games. Can you expand on what has distrurbed you about the training?

[Gorgiesaint]

Keep them all apart from the two french lads.

 

and Smith...

[SaintRobbie]

Keep them all apart from the two french lads.

 

No, disagree.

 

Sell as many as you can keep the 5-6 decent players amongst them and have them fight for their places.

 

They're broken. Broken by the daft youth policy. They have failed and been relegated. They are losers. Clear them out and lets get a decent manager and buy some men.

[SoccerMom]

> I've been down to Staplewood with the nipper and IMHO there's something deeply, deeply wrong with the coaching and managing

 

That has been my impression too. But I only get to see the games. Can you expand on what has distrurbed you about the training?

 

TBF, we've only been down for "open" training, so I don't know what they are doing the rest of the time, but what we've seen was very like the 'warm-up' at the Man U match, for instance - complicated movement around a square (don't know what you call that) and intricate exercises, and then practice matches. Nothing that I could identify as working on the basics, which is certainly what they should have been doing all sodding season. Maybe they were concentrating on putting on a show for the half-dozen or so fans that showed up, but it didn't seem like it. It all just seemed a bit robotic and pointless, and I couldn't see what they were supposed to be working on.

 

But when you put that together with what we've been seeing in matches, then you kind of think that 'robotic and pointless' is spot on. We can see the same mistakes happening, week in, week out, and - perhaps even more worrying - no change of tactics or sense that problems have been worked on, which means that other teams only need to see a couple of vids to know exactly where the weak points are.

 

There doesn't seem to have been any imagination, any forward thinking, just a kind of blinkered 'this is what we do, and we can only do it in this way' approach that doesn't take account of squad strengths and weaknesses, other teams' tactics or the position of the team in the league - just like someone had programmed the team with one version of the software and that's it.

[70's Mike]

Seems to be our academy was geared up to produce premiership players where ball skill etc is better protected than in the CCC,that coupled with the reduction in quality both in the boys coming in and the coaches at Staplewood , has led to a real gap in USEABLE talent.

Many of the boys can pass a football, with both feet, through the eye of a needle but they cannot head a ball, get their bodies across players to win poession or tackle strongly.

But the worse trait i have witnessed is that idividual skill, ie MLT style, has been removed.

DMG strike against Palace was a rare change as 9 times out of 10 the ball is just passed on rather than a shot

[david in sweden]

Seems to be our academy was geared up to produce premiership players where ball skill etc is better protected than in the CCC,that coupled with the reduction in quality both in the boys coming in and the coaches at Staplewood , has led to a real gap in USEABLE talent.

Many of the boys can pass a football, with both feet, through the eye of a needle but they cannot head a ball, get their bodies across players to win poession or tackle strongly.

But the worse trait i have witnessed is that idividual skill, ie MLT style, has been removed.

DMG strike against Palace was a rare change as 9 times out of 10 the ball is just passed on rather than a shot

 

 

I think you've summed up my thoughts Mike,

It seems to me, from watching games on cable here (in Sweden) that some attacking moves " look good " but there's a lack of vision (which sadly few players possess) Walcott is in a class of his own compared to others in his age) .. In our side, no-one knows what to do when we get into the box, or are challenged by a hulky CH. Lack of talent... or lack of vision?

DMG's goal v. Palace was that inspirational (MLT) touch that we've lacked for many seasons. When he (DMG) learns to keep th ball down and aim straight, he'll become " someone's " top scorer.

 

It is asking a lot to transform "boys" into men capable of dealing with an experienced defenders and they haven't learned how to cope with the " off the ball tricks" like fouling when the ref's back's is turned, or the elbow in the head in an aerial duel.

 

People have spoken about poor displays when we were simply fielding an unsuitable/ inexperienced BOYS team. I have seldom seen ANYTHING worse than Aug. home fixture v. Blackpool (lost 0-1 : a penalty which no experienced player would have conceded.) We were totally outclassed by a squad of giants who clogged there way through the whole game.

A prime example of MEN v. BOYS !

 

These lads have potential, but now we are about to pay the price of a youth policy WITHOUT experienced support. Some of them will disappear from the scene and re-emerge in 2-3 years as bright hopefuls for a Prem. side after their sojourns in League 2 or Conference sides.

Edited 20 April, 2009 by david in sweden

[david in sweden]

Keep them all apart from the two french lads.

 

sounds a sensible idea, but do you think the new management will listen ?

[Saint_clark]

Keep them all apart from the two french lads.

 

Completely agree. The rest have all shown potential.

[Kenilworthy]

What I wonder is do they even practise shooting? When you watch the shooting practice during the pre-match warmup they can hardy hit the target. So is it any wonder they can't do it under the pressure of an actual game? Are they taught how not to clear the first defender with a corner - or do they rely on natural talent for that?

[ThorpG]

I think you've summed up my thoughts Mike,

It seems to me, from watching games on cable here (in Sweden) that some attacking moves " look good " but there's a lack of vision (which sadly few players possess) Walcott is in a class of his own compared to others in his age) .. In our side, no-one knows what to do when we get into the box, or are challenged by a hulky CH. Lack of talent... or lack of vision?

DMG's goal v. Palace was that inspirational (MLT) touch that we've lacked for many seasons. When he (DMG) learns to keep th ball down and aim straight, he'll become " someone's " top scorer.

 

It is asking a lot to transform "boys" into men capable of dealing with an experienced defenders and they haven't learned how to cope with the " off the ball tricks" like fouling when the ref's back's is turned, or the elbow in the head in an aerial duel.

 

People have spoken about poor displays when we were simply fielding an unsuitable/ inexperienced BOYS team. I have seldom seen ANYTHING worse than Aug. home fixture v. Blackpool (lost 0-1 : a penalty which no experienced player would have conceded.) We were totally outclassed by a squad of giants who clogged there way through the whole game.

A prime example of MEN v. BOYS !

 

These lads have potential, but now we are about to pay the price of a youth policy WITHOUT experienced support. Some of them will disappear from the scene and re-emerge in 2-3 years as bright hopefuls for a Prem. side after their sojourns in League 2 or Conference sides.

 

 

 

Very hard on a lot of these young players - by throwing them in the deep end to such an extent, rather than giving them the opportunity to cut it in the Championship, they have been given the opportunity to fail. How many young players have succeded in English football coming through into a team of other young players, with no 'wise, old heads' to help them settle in? I be there aren't many. Bridge, Walcott, Beattie etc... all had the opportunity to join an experienced side which could 'carry' one or two young players until they settled in. This season's kids have just been lambs to the slaughter.

[OfnPanad]

What I wonder is do they even practise shooting? When you watch the shooting practice during the pre-match warmup they can hardy hit the target. So is it any wonder they can't do it under the pressure of an actual game? Are they taught how not to clear the first defender with a corner - or do they rely on natural talent for that?

 

+1

 

I've noticed this too. With the exception of Saeij's strike against Watford, all our set piece and "last third" play is woeful. We rely on other teams putting the goal on a plate as we create nothing. No ideas, no tactics. Even during games the players seem to be on autopilot.

 

An example against Sheffield Wednesday - their right back (number 21) was awful for the first 15 minutes - made loads of mistakes - didn't like being rushed - miskicked and put the ball out. But after exposing this we never went down to that corner again!!

 

The team were playing badly for 70 minutes before Wotte noticed and made some rather odd changes.

 

Against Palace they had an outfield player in goal for 10 minutes...how many shots did we have? FFS we should have been shooting from halfway!!

 

This reminds me of the stick Sven used to get when he was England manager. We just don't bother to play to our strengths and we don't seem to bother investigating or even noticing other teams' weaknesses.

 

I am so frustrated

 

[SNSUN]

Life, sadly, if full of whatifs. A few years ago we had a brilliant youth team, and had we chosen to use the youth then, we could perhaps have seen a line up along these lines:

 

Smith

 

Baird Crainie Mills Bale

 

Dyer Surman Walcott

 

Best Blackstock McG

 

I'd love to have seen a CCC team like this...

[70's Mike]

Life, sadly, if full of whatifs. A few years ago we had a brilliant youth team, and had we chosen to use the youth then, we could perhaps have seen a line up along these lines:

 

Smith

 

Baird Crainie Mills Bale

 

Dyer Surman Walcott

 

Best Blackstock McG

 

I'd love to have seen a CCC team like this...

 

the back four would have had to be good with the six in front of them, not to many tacklers there

 

but i know what you mean we chose to experiment when we had the runts of the litter left

[Verbal Kint]

Against Palace they had an outfield player in goal for 10 minutes...how many shots did we have? FFS we should have been shooting from halfway!!

 

On that point, how stupid are footballers!!? They put an outfield player in goal and immediately we had a corner. Any sane person would think about putting a high lofted ball above the "keeper's" head would be the sensible thing to do. But no. We had some idiot fail to beat the first man. Again.

 

Morons the lot of them

[ribbo]

gah! this threads gone from wondering why we get rid of talent that later blooms into knocking our own talent before they've had a chance to bloom!! Taxi to NavyRed'Ville please!!

 

Lancashire,

Thompson /Paterson /McLaggon -

Mills/White -

Schneiderlin -

Gasmi -

Smith - .

Gobern -

 

all of these guys with the exception of smith have had less than a season of professional football!!

 

keep them all, maybe aged 21/22 and a lot more games take another look, but with the exception of morgan they're all on peanuts and will improve if handled correctly, look at DMG (when not played off the shoulder) and Lloyd James who is also playing out of position, they are going to hopefully make up an essential part of our squad in the future and they cost a lot less than it would take to buy in like for like (much, well perhaps notts county might argue with that )

[david in sweden]

gah! this threads gone from wondering why we get rid of talent that later blooms into knocking our own talent before they've had a chance to bloom!! Taxi to NavyRed'Ville please!!

 

Lancashire,

Thompson /Paterson /McLaggon -

Mills/White -

Schneiderlin -

Gasmi -

Smith - .

Gobern -

 

all of these guys with the exception of smith have had less than a season of professional football!!

 

keep them all, maybe aged 21/22 and a lot more games take another look, but with the exception of morgan they're all on peanuts and will improve if handled correctly, look at DMG (when not played off the shoulder) and Lloyd James who is also playing out of position, they are going to hopefully make up an essential part of our squad in the future and they cost a lot less than it would take to buy in like for like (much, well perhaps notts county might argue with that )

 

 

I'm glad someone made that point Ribbo,

I'm tired of people picking on " former players " who happened to score a goal and then blaming Saints for parting with them in the first place.

You can't keep EVERYONE, nor should we try. If players don't get in the first team, they are either not good enough or they are with the wrong club. It's clear that players like Dyer didn't fit in with the formations that various (past)managers used, and so he's better off in a club that can utilise his skills.

No-one should blame him for wanting to play football, and sooner or later he may play in the Prem. (but IMHO not with Swansea)

 

The irony is that Chris Baird was the " forgotten man " for several managers and to be fair, wouldn't have got in our teams when; Richards, Svensson and Lunderkvam were playing at their best. As it was his one good season was enough to give us the £3 million windfall we got when he moved to Fulham.

 

Truth is no-one knows who'd be better or not in 5 years time - except for the Walcotts of this world - it's impossible to say. Why players like Mark Peters disappear without trace, while " troublemakers " like Kevin Davies and Brian Howard make a decent career when they play for the " right manager ".

 

Lawrie McMenemy turned Mark Dennis into one of the best left backs in the clubs history, when no other club would have him - unfortunately L. Mac. wasn't around when David Prutton needed the same sort of handling !

 

Such is life!