CB Fry

If you're someone who has decided that the aim of the season is to avoid relegation then it's not the end of the world. But if you think we are buying centre backs for £1.5m in League One to get into the play offs this season, this is a very disappointing result and leaves us with a hell of a lot to do to achieve that aim. To get into the top six we need championship winning form, and that isn't drawing away at Brentford, regardless of their recent form. If we wanted to win the league that's what we'd need to do. And effectively, form-wise we need to win the league to get into the play offs now.

....much like every arrival and every departure at every football club on earth. Never stopped you sticking your oar in though. If you object so vigourously to someone saying 'it would be good if our chief exec didn't leave' maybe football web forums aren't for you.

These two could realistically be sung on the day. Pretty much all the other songs on here just won't be. Loads are funny and it is a great thread but never going to happen. Just sing "you're going out of business" over and over and over again. And "you're going down". And "we've got more fans than you". And "we're going to Wembley" if we're winning or not, because we will be. [assuming we do the business a couple of days before of course]. I think in football chants it is possible to have too much material and good lord do we have too much material on that lot down the road.

No we don't. We're not going to get relegated, or anywhere near.

Hello Chris Coleman. Hi there Neil Warnock. Evening Mark Stimson. Sean O'Driscoll, fancy seeing you here. How come you're all on a poxy fans webforum at this time of night?

But we're talking about eighth. And Birmingham and Fulham are more than likely going to finish eighth. Meaning that clubs like us can still finish eighth. Fulham finished seventh last season. Blackburn finished seventh the season before. Bolton finished seventh and Reading eighth the season before that, in their first season up. Eighth is a perfectly achievable target for a very good, well organised, professionally managed "average" team, if you see what I mean. And it is just as difficult/realistic as it was in 2003. Your Fulhams, Readings and Blackburns have/had players like Konchesky, Zamora, Danny Murphy, Dave Kitson, David Dunn, Zoltan Gera, Stephen Warnock, Kevin Doyle. Not world beaters, just steady pros - the equivalents of our Beattie, Marsden, Neimi and Bridge. If the top four have got stronger then the bottom eight have definitely got weaker.

Yeah, it changed it and made the teams in the bottom half of the table a lot worse than they used to be. Finishing Eighth in a division with Burnley, Wolves, Pompey, Bolton, Blackburn, Stoke City, Birmingham, Hull City, West Ham, Wigan and Sunderland is certainly no more difficult than we had seven years ago. The Man U treble winning team is light years ahead of the current squad, the Bobby Robson's best Newcastle team would finish ahead of the 2010 Liverpool, Spurs and Man City. If finishing eighth these days is some monumental footballing achievement, how come Birmingham and Fulham are in pole position to acheive it with teams no better than Strachan's?

Really? Can't see anything in the teams that will finish from eighth to twentieth in this years Prem as being any better than any other set of teams from any Prem season in the last ten years at least. And even Man U/Arsenal/Liverpool aren't as good as they have been in recent years. Certainly don't agree that the teams in 2003 were "a lot" weaker. I'd say a good comparison with the 2003 Saints team is this season's Birmingham City. Will probably finish 8/9/10, but there is nothing in that team that is "a lot" better than we were under WGS. Effective, but utterly ordinary.

He was solid but he did seem to hoooooof it quite a lot more than I was expecting from the defender described by everyone as cultured and "ball playing". We were scrappy as hell in the second half, we do lack creativity so hopefully when he settles in Fonte can play a part in helping us play our way out of this league. Pretty ropey game all in all, we were far better first half then second. We'll be nowhere near the play offs playing like that. Crowd was excellent and easily outnumbered and outsung the MK fans. Little tip for the MK ticket office - put some vocal home fans near the away end. Does wonders for the atmosphere.

I don't think they do. They shouldn't anyway. The Away goals rule is pretty dopey in European games but utterly ridiculous in domestic football.

I've answered all your questions, apart from the stupid ones about did Pardew give a second interview etc. Obviously he didn't because what he said in the interview is covered accurately in the Echo. The Echo don't imply we'd made a bid, they said we'd "made a move". And Pardew did make a move. How else does he know the two clubs are a distance away on valuation. No I don't work for the Echo but I will always defend them against wallies who have a go at them for "implying" things when they have done nothing of the sort.

Well that's a different thread of the debate. I'm defending the Echo against people lying about what it says and then bleating about how awful the press is. Everyone is playing the game. I am sure Donny don't want to sell, but might have to, so have to look like they don't need to.

The appointment of Gray was justified in that he had a decent end of season before, and was popular with the players and is an excellent coach rated very highly in the game. And was loyal as he refused to go to Spurs with Hoddle. I think that meant a lot to Lowe. Moyes I think turned us down (we only allowed him to bring one assistant, Lowe wanted to be loyal to Gray and other backroomers), as did McClaren (who I think didn't come because of money and Boro being a better option). Being that there are plenty of people that called for the appointment of Dodd/Le Tiss/Benali/Svennson etc etc every time our job comes up it sometimes is a bit rich when people slate Gray's appointment in retrospect. So Gray was understandable and forgivable - but others, esp Wigley were unforgivable. All that sad, I was anti his appointment from day one anyway. But could understand it.

Christ almighty. The point is people are slating the Echo for saying we have made a bid when the Echo do not say we have made a bid, just people deciding they think the Echo are saying we have made a bid then complaining that the Echo are saying we have made a bid. Even though they didn't. And then pompously grandstand about how terribly awful the "rags" are at exactly the same time of attributing things to them which they simply haven't said. Or lying, as its known. Pulling the text apart to prove the Echo could be saying we've made a bid just backs up my point even more. We've made a move, we've talked to Doncaster about valuations. That's what Pardew said, that's what the Echo said. Everything else is dinlows making out the Echo are saying something then having a go at the Echo for it. Even though they didn't. I am delighted that you have conceded that the only way they could disagree about valuations is by talking to Doncaster about valuations. Which in my book, constitutes "making a move". Unless you think football managers spend their time ringing up random clubs for random valuations on players they have no interest in. And a "valuation" is a "fee" which they couldn't agree on, unless you think Saints are offering a net of training balls in return for Stock. "Saints have made a move to sign Doncaster Rovers skipper Brian Stock, it was revealed tonight." "But Southampton boss Alan Pardew claimed that two clubs could not agree on a fee for the 28-year-old midfielder" So no mention of a bid. I can quote it, you can quote it. No one is making any freaking bids.

LOL I'm happy to get behind the revival of classic forum running gags FFS!

Well the Echo didn't. My point stands, people have a go at the Echo for suggesting things that only actually occur in the reader's heads. It looks like a bid hasn't been made, and no publication is saying a bid has been made, the Echo is not saying a bid has been made, but smart-arse "all papers are rags" dinlows come on here and complain about the Echo saying a bid has been made because they've decided they think the Echo are saying a bid have been made. Newsflash - the Echo do not say a bid has been made. So please can people stop grizzling about "rag" newspapers when they don't even say the things the grizzlers are grizzling about.

The story above says Saints have made a move for Stock but the two clubs cannot currently agree on a fee. Any smart arse want to argue with this? Ah, here's a smart arse right on cue.... The Echo story doesn't mention the fact we've made a bid so you are falling over yourself to say the Echo is making stuff up that you yourself have made up. And the Echo story also doesn't mention we have "confirmed a bid has been made rejected and that we were not going back for another try.". Again, you're getting all bothered about "press speculation" when the Echo story doesn't mention what you are yourself speculating. But you carry on ranting on about "rags" and lying about the text in said newspapers and then complaining about it. Them newspapers eh? Aren't they terrible and stuff making stuff up in your own head

Fair enough, I don't know either way. I was going on the post before mine.

It's going to be a deadline day deal then. Doncaster will have a choice - £1m (or whatever our final offer is) from us, or nothing in the summer. I think they need the money.

It's not, it's just how football works and sorry it is how every successful club is doing it, excluding the Alex Ferguson don't bother, we know exception. From Arsenal to Everton, from Villa to Fulham, from Wigan to Spurs, from Forest to Leicester, from Leeds to Norwich, from Doncaster to Peterborough*, from Exeter to Rochdale, from Bournemouth to Swindon. All of them. Successful and delivered by managers instantly, within a full season, or eighteen months or so. Find an exception. Find one. In two years time, if all we are doing is "knocking on the door" then the team will need to be rebuilt anyway.

We would have to have had an appalling end to the season for NC to sack Pardew this season. We'll finish eighth bare minimum this year which will be disappointing but not surprising considering the start we made, we can still make the play offs. Pardew will have next season to get us promoted but I think NC and AP will both know it will be "promotion without fail". He is and will be given everything he could reasonably expect and more so will have no complaints if he fails next year and is removed. NC I don't think will be trigger happy but he will expect results next season if we don't do it this, and so he should.

But the point is every successful club in the UK has done this. The list of names I put above is testament to it. It's alchemy - the right manager at the right time. But the success happens within eighteen months or a full season or never. Gordon Strachan was given "another 18 months, bringing in his new staff, buying the players he fancies, blah blah blah" and in that time we'd finished eighth and got to the cup final and six months later we were fourth. The most important thing to remember is if we do fail next season, all our good players will be cherry picked and gone. If Lallana plays out of his skin next season, and we finish eighth, or even lose the play offs, he will go. Ditto Lambert, Ditto Harding, definitely Ditto Fonte. They could say I have done my bit but I don't want to play in L1 anymore and who could blame them. This idea that we can fail and then just keep building and building is a forlorn hope. If we don't go up next season there will be gigantic upheaval. Even if the manager stays, the team will be completely different anyway.

Pardew is delivering and we'll be near as dammit to (if not in) the play offs this season and top four next season pushing automatic promotion. And yes, Pardew will be under pheonomenal pressure next year but his instant success this season gets him time. I am not saying every manager must be sacked after 18 months, just that if you don't get success in that time you never will, and the next one could.

It's called instant success and it seems to annoy people on this forum.

Absolutely - the Iain Dowie at Palace thing is as much of a red herring as the Sir Alex cliche. Pardew is already an instant success in my book and I agree about pre-season but I think the argument is weaker when yesterday we played a back four where three of them would have only met each other merely days before*!