Frank's cousin

Uhm... sorry dont buy teh ball is to blame stuff... 1. It was available to ALL countries to use and practise with since January... its pretty feckin typical of the prem league to put their own sponsorship deals ahead of the national teas interests os there you go 2. If you actually look at the Ronaldo hitting teh post or Podolski's goal... sems like a good flight to me... altitude probably plays a part, but they blame teh ballevery world cup for the poor games,mistakes, but you never see the winners complaining. 3. Over caution in round one coupled with big league players these days thinking more of their club/wdge that their country - Germans looked good against a poor side, but also because they actually shoved 3 up front and passed creatively, attacked etc... nothing to do with the bundesliga using the ball 4. For years we have maligned the Germans as being 'functional' and devoid of creativity... yet going back to 2006, they were the only side to play 2 up front in everygame - and now they have found some creative midfield inthe young Ozil, they have played the most creatively out of all teh sides to date...hopefully Spain will show what they can do today...

Well I see your point, but thats more to do with the fact that many players (particularly Prem league which by its very nature seems to attract the greedy types...) think more about the CL and their wedge than they do about playing for their country now...

Uhm... I live up in Scotland now and my wife is Scottish... spent 5 years up here in the 90s and really looked forward to moving back as I had a lot of (Scottish) mates back from my University days who all now live close by. What some have described re the Glasgow incident, I would add a couple of things: 1. People who do that are not football fans but run of the mill thugs - and lets be fair, we have our own contingent of vile xenophobic fu**wits who often go out to England games and cause their own ignorant and embarrasing sh*testorm 2. 99% of it is just banter - but it has become more politicised - mainly growing in the 80s, when Scotland was shat on by Thatcher's experiments etc and this fuelled the SNPs own Zenophobia and other nationalistic ******. It carries on today whenever that knob Salmond can refer to 'London' or 'Westminster' politics rather than talking about the BRITISH Government that includes a fair chunk of Scottish MPs.... he is clever in his propoganda. 3. We dont do ourselves any favours either, with our triumphalism and bigotry whether its 'Achtung Surrender' in the Mirror (before getting beat by the German's on Penalties), or the usual tripe about expecting to be better than everybody else - the media hype has a lot to answer for really and it winds many folk up..... like on TV (ITV being the worst culprits) when someone else is playing, they go off on tangents about England and some other ****** that should wait until the match is over at least if not at least when England are actually playing. 4. Sure we tend not to see the Scots or Irish as rivals because we assume we are so much better then they are, and therefore our rivalry tends to be focussed on Argentina, Germany etc - teams we seem to think we are ona par with... and there is obviously a natural tendency to be a bit bitter about those who have more success than we do.... 5. Has to be said: when we finally shut the feck up about '66, and realise that because we won it once nearly 50 years ago, does not mean we should be assuming we are so much better than everyone else - again the media plays a big part in this continual dredging up because we have had feck all success since... the Germans dont on about 54 or even 74 and 90 as for them its all bout today and winnning today... we need to get that attitude as well, that what we did 50 years ago is history and means nothing if we cant do something as good today.

Good game, impressive display. even against an opposition that was not on form and looked jaded at times. What was impressive was they kept the ball on the deck and passed through the middle and yet also had a great deal of width - Lahm was superb, Ozil looks like he has the potential to be world class, and they were less impressive without his creativity. Klose is an enigma... will probably get 5 again and be joint leading scorer with Ronaldo, without ever really reaching those heights with his club... Podoloski's 82 mph strike showed how to hit that ball! Average age is just under 25 so suspect this world cup might be a bit early but Euro 2012 and Brazil 2014, would be a good bet now....

Thing is, Why would the club NOT want fans to see the new kit First on teh club website rather than in the local paper? In the past they may well have provided theeh Echo the advance publicity material on teh proviso thay hold back publication until a certain time... but they went agaisnt that agreement with the Staplewood plans... simple matter of being able to trust them really. It works both ways. Yes the club should build bridges with the local paper, but the local paper need to accept their part in this and make amends and demonstrate they are really Supportive of the club, not just in it for circulation...and there in lies the problem...

Ok Assuming the club have done this to maximise revenues from gate, do you have a fundemental objection to paying more if it means more investment in the team? For me this is always the crux,the balance between a pricing policy that is affordable, a team and performances that justify the price point and the chicken and egg scenario that the revenues dictate what we can afford. I appreciate that the communication of this change may have hit some individuals, but I suspect it is a minority and therefore the club has made thsi for business reasons - but is this really so bad?

Stu As we heard on the grapevine the cluib had been looking at a swipe card system which would also involve investment in new turnstiles etc. I suspect that is the main reason for the delay as this will now be introduced later... The removal of the instalment plan, is probably a late decsion based on the swip card delay to reduce defaulting on payment. In addition, They are also concerned about fraudulent entry with 'lost' STs' etc.... same as thers were hundreds scamming the club when we had the 'credit card STs'... now it might have been naive of the club to have such a system that was easy to defraud... but ultimately if you want to blame anyone for the reduction in flexibilty of STs in general and their purchase, its got to be that minority who feel its acceptable to call themselve's a fan, yet cheat the club...

Why is it that whenever a club acts in a way to potentially improve its revenue... fans go ape? I am sure Stu is right in that the club have thought about it and have gambled that the success we will potentially have will drive on the day attendance and thus gate receipts. NOw we are in an envieble position to most other clubs. The reasons for early ST sales and installment plans offered by ofer clubs is COMMERCIAL and not SERVICE, because most clubs NEED this revenue early to cover the summer operational costs, and in many cases installments on loans leveraged against ST sales. We are not in that position, so the club - that has always reiterated that it needs to be self financing - can make a commercial decsion based on expected performance and maximise the revenues. The irony is that thos ewho complain above are usually the first to bemoan the lack of signings, or investment, yet in order to provide the maximum budget for football, the club needs to maximise its revenues from the gate and other commercial sources - the decision is simple - get a gate of 20,000 where the average paid per ticket is £15 or one where the average is £20. If that additional 30% translates as 30% extra in the transfer kitty, then what is everyone worried about? Or do you expect Markus to fund it all out of his pocket? Sure for some the lack of options may mean its tricky to get to as many games, but that is the case with anything that costs money, we all have to make sacrafices and juggle finances to be able to afford the things we want, but if we want the club to be successful, we have to acknowledge that it needs to exploit all possible commercial avenues - some will work, some will backfire, but that is the nature of business. If we get off to a good start, we will see a good gate and a wider group of fans comming to games - yes for some it may mean they get to fewer if they have not been able to take advantage of an ST, but that IS life, whatever we think about how 'fair' or unfair' it is.

Stu (Son) on a more serious note - you first of all moaned that because of the club delaying ST sales, it would mean that you would not start paying for it until August and thus would be paying for it up until Christmas.... what I simply do not grasp is how if you or anyone else has been using the installment plan for years - where unsure of what would happen with tehnew regime, why you did not put aside the money from April (even March for Early bird) so that by July/August you would have 80% of the ticket price nicely saved up... seems the most logical thing. Yup there are flk you cant afford the hit of £350 in one go - well sad to say it that is life, there are plenty of things I cant afford so if I want them, I have to save...

The self disipline installment plan.... 1. Open a savings account 2. Set up standing order from current account for £35 per month to be placed in savings account 3. Year total £420 - enough for annual ST purchase with afew quid left over for a shirt/beers 4. adjust monthly amount if promoted/inflation Given the simplicity of such an instalment pans which incidently is cunningly not only interest free but may pay YOU interest, I was just surprised that we expected this to be done for us by the club....

True, and what about that nice Brazillian chap with his play acting holding face when the ball hit him on the ankles at the corner flag....

Cant resist ;-) I will say what I did when accused of defending Lowe all that time ago... FORGET THE PERSONALITIES and look at the approaches taken and judge them on their merits. Lowe made alot of feck ups and his 'legendary' interference with footballing matters have tainted nearly everything he has done... but fundementally his approach was based on... 1. Do not get into debt 2. Invest wisely in infrastructure - ground for more fans/customers and better facilities - will encourage more to go to games and improve revenues for reinvestment 3. Invest in quality training facilities to giove our squad every possible advantage as we cant afford the worlds best, lets seek to improve what we have 4. Invest in an academy as its the best way of improving the squad without the financial headaches taht come with big signings 5. do not pay stupid wages and let managers go mad on contract negotiations 6. live within our means. Now I support the above, not Lowe, or NC but the approach. Who gives a flying feck if they dont get on with legends of the past.? ONly those stuck in it... The past is just that, great days and all that, but guarrantees nothing and we are talking in one case about an expert from a different era - whose opinions are very vocal yet not really intune with today's game and has shown himself to believe the media first and comment, before finding out facts... I do not need my CEO to be likeable, smiley,...just effective, and anyway we have Markus for the passion and 'intouch with fans' buit that so amny seem to need...

I am not, as many are, a skate hater - I have pompey mates who are pasionate about their team and I respect them for that, but you have to bare in mind the following: there is a fundemental interest in what is happening because a) the schardenfreude expressed by most of the pompey fans at our financial downfall and b) whatever else happens, there is a huge difference between borrowing to win things and being able to repay those loans and borrowing to win things without the revenue to repay it...which is cheating and why the points deductions are meant as a punishment AND to discourage clubs from doing exactly what your club did. In response to your points above I would say this: 1. True many of the posts on here criticise the professional bodies because we do not understand teh leagl complexities of it all, or the regulations re admin... but also because in many cases we are incredulous that what may be within the legal framework, seems completely at odds with what is morally right and in the spirit of sporting competition... your own view of what is 'sporting' will shape you view on this... 2. Difficult as each group has its own interests - there is no public interest in seeing a club go to theeh wall, but at the same time, how can a punishment fit the crime,to ensure its a real deterrent and importantly try and ensure that competition is fair, yet also allow the club to survive and rebuild having learnt its lesson? 3. Bitter? NO. Pompey have had reasonable success as we did, 27 years in the top flight with the smallest ground is reasonable success and we are proud of it. And we did that without borrowing to buy better players and pay silly wages... at teh same time as developing a new ground, developing a training facility which we own and major investment in an academy... something we can be proud of. 4. Pompey when run well under Mandrich who kept hold of the purse strings and invested his own cash (although he did take 35 mil away with him when he sold up) could also be proud of what they achieved, but remember at before his time the club with teh best fans in the world were languishing at the bottom of the second tier with an average gate of 8000... thats why we find it incredulous that your fans believe the media hype about you legendary fan status... ALL clubs see gate rise and fall with success... as you will see next season when in the CCC... had your various owners actually invested in infrastructure and dragged the club into the 21st century, and managed the finances, you would probably not have had that relative success, but been a far better proposition for a potential purchaser and also more attractive to a wider fan base - our move to SMS meant finally more fans could go regularly so it intrioduced new fans who have stayed despite the lower L1 status... sound investment afterall, even if some feel because we did not borrow heavily for players, it cost us a prem position... 5. Liebherr has always said the club MUST be self sustaining with the odd bit of investment from himself... yes we are lucky but most would agree we made that luck through the investmenst of the past as indicated above - there is also a big difference between the odd mil and the 80 mil + you spent on internationals to try and compete BEFORE your infrastructure was in place to support it - that stupidity is what cost you. And its that fact that so many of yor fans still refuse to acknowledge that comparing what the club did as no different from Chelsea or Man utd all in big debt to survice their players that grinds. These other clubs up until now CAN service those debts which is difference no 1. The second point is that just because they are doing iot does not make it right - its why football is such a financial mess and with many of your fans justifying your recklessness because other are reckless too just illustrates their ignorance. If Saints go down that route in future, I will be complaining to the club - as I do NOT want to win anything by incurring huge debts. 6. 'our fans are universally recognised as better than yours' - Uhm... my daddy's bigger than yours... FFS that a bit pathetic... who gives a flying feck - see notes above about your 8000 gate , but gates, noise, travelling fan numbers is effected by a lot...Success, form, local economy and catchment area... before you stake your claim on this one, best wait and see how you do in the winter next season when you are struggling lower table... Two cup finals and a trophy? sure I am jealous, same as I am of thsoe that compete for the top honors and champions league places -but I also view these clubs with some distaste, because of the way they have thrown money at it to achieve that success and have spoilt the spirit of the competition - Give any club £250mil to spend and watch them go - it has nothing to do with history, size, fans ... just greed and money. If that floats your boat good for you... personnally, whatever most saints fans think of our past leader Mr Lowe, he got one thing spot on... invest wisely in infrastructure that improves facilities for customers, makes the club more attractive to players, dont pay stupid wages and avoid debt where possible - which is something we are seeing from Liebherr - it will mean we take longer to progress, may one day get promoted, and possibly relegated again - but we will have achieved what we achieve by growth on solid foundations, not a quick splash of cash that has seen you tumble like a house of cards... all depends on what your fans really want. a club with a solid infrastructure that competes well and has cyclic success or more of what you have seen - a trophy that will be forever tainted by what it cost the club to achieve it...

True, but that was why they changed it so both final group games are played at the same time - and is anyone really going to say that had it been England + someone else in the same boat, we might just have got the result as well? Schumachers foul was disgraceful, but the real shame is that that Semi v France is remembered for that rather than the 3-3 which was arguably one of the games of the worldcup - end to end stuff and cracking goals...

I totally agree - I dont think there are many who want to see any club get wound up, because it effects more than just those who lose a few quid. So if the creditors accept the CVA then thats their choice and everyone moves on...BUT what ****es most folk off is simply that as this is sport, the reason for the debt was gaining and UNFAIR advantage - in effect cheating - and so if they avoid as a result any punsihment that in effect fits this crime it will be to football's shame. I say this because the way teh CVA is structured,possibly over 4-5 years, the new Parachute payments etc will allow pompey to in effect still have an income of approx 20 mil next season (you'll need to go back about 50 pages to see where I do the fag packet maths) maths) which is a big advantage over many on the CCC - they could in effect still come straight back up and avoid any sort of real punishment taht would discourage similar recklessness and cheating....

All fair points but I was really wanting an answer as to WHY pompey fans and the media pundits seem to think that the FAPP test should be about bankrolling finacial incompetence and in effect buying a footballing advantage. FWIW, IMHO, I believe that all clubs shoul have to submit a budget for approval to teh FA/PL/FL whoever BEFORE the transfer season window opens and before teh nesxt season starts. All clubs taht have rich owners should only eb alllowed to GIFT the club (no loans) a maximum of 25% of their previous years turnover and ALL clubs must thus live within their means. If clubs want to borrow from banks, it should only be for major infrastructure investment and the club must demonstrate that the repayments are possible if relegated. All clubs must have reduction terms in contracts for relegation and If a club cannot afford the wages for the squad on relegation, it must transfer list players to value of the wgaes tehy can nnot afford and those players not be allowed to represent the club in all competitions thus removing teh advantage created by having players you cannot afford. Never going to happen, and in some cases open to various legal challenges, but teh principl;es would see us have a more level playing field and a far more financially stable club system....

To some extent I can understand where SoG is comming from. There is in some cases almost a complete turnaround in attitude from some posters. We have NC who is doing his thing and given praise (rightly IMHO), yet when we had a similar approach to finance and possible a bit of arrogance and egothrown in, many of the same were highly critical... Now maybe this is a case a hypocriticism (is that a word?), or maybe the recent troubles and those of others have made us a bit less gung ho about the despiration for 'investing' (money beyond our means) in the squad... inlight of the recent spate of admins and the pompey saga and the realisation that living within ones means is perhaps not such a bad idea, Lowe's approach to at least that aspect is posibly seen in a slightly better light these dyas than when everyone was mad about the Saha and Malbranque saga? I think SoG is posisbly suggesting that if we disliked the ego and arrogance of teh evil one, why do some simply accept it in NC? TBH, I dont give a flying fig about such perceived arrogance or ego in NC, as I did not in Lowe, nor do I care if it manifests itself in initialled tracksuits and preseason tours with the the squad... IF it brings the success that the club and fans strive for. My points before were that we seem to be too hung up on how we THINK and EXPECT a board or chairman to behave, and this is reinforced by the 'pundits' in the media - and given that it IS the media, their objection to say NC's approach and thus their agenda for peddling guff that is critical should be obvious to all. I believe that given the record of chairman that that gone about their business in in the way we 'THINK' they should is at best passable and at worst criminal in their financial incomptence. For me tehrefore, the only aspect on which I will judge NC is if delivers on his 5 year plan, and importantly as a customer we are entertained along the way and its good value. I will not judge him on his decisions during that time. Some will surprise me, some will probably dissappoint me but judgement will be reserved for when that timesscale is complete. We craved a proper long term plan with ambition for years - (and I would argue that its possibly a little more difficult to have one for a club that is 25+ years in the top flight without the financial muscle to break into the top 6/7, than for a League 1 club with financial support as there is much further we can go), now we have one, so I will support it and teh decsions that are made along the way, because only the outcome after five years will determine whether NC was right or wrong, not speculation about Pards job in the local rag...

I have another question though and this may be naive or interesting ... One thing pompey fans keep going on about .. as indeed do certain broadcasters is tthe issue with teh fit and proper test, in which the biggest questions seems not to be teh important ones, such as character, integrity, business acumen, and impoprtantly an interest in ensuring a club remains a focas of and integrated with teh community and its fans.... no the only question that is rased is 'checking if they have the money'. Now forgive me, but what the flying feck has that got to do with it? Presumuably they have the money to buy the necessary shares (please exclude the glazier type purchase where the club becomes security for the loans issued to purchase it in the first place thus landing a club in debt, albeit in the form of managed loans) to take over the club. But why is it EXPECTED that a new owner MUST also have tons of cash to throw at the team? Why is it that new owners are blamed becaus ethey do NOT invest in the team and cover the contractual overspend entered into by previous owners? Surely if the baord go and spend stupid money on the expectations /promises made by owners, then they are guilty of incompetence as no one should risk the business on the ground of promises - you need to wait until its sitting in the account. I know in Pompeys case the various owners would possibly have struggled to pass teh fit and proper on grounds of itegruity and character, but its not ever clear why fans and pundits seem to think you cant own a club if you are not prepared to splash teh cash and underwrite the financial incompetence of teh board - although naturally it should be argued that you would fail on the business accumen part if you let your board get away with stupid spending. In effect, its no different to NC saying to Pards what do you need?, Pards getting players in for say 40 mil and committing us to an extra 20 mil a season in wages over our income.... with fans and NC and Pards all expecting, without any guarrantees that ML would somehow write this off and cover it... when what he does is walk away because its a mess - or have teh ground and staplewood transferred into his name to at least get the purchase price back when admin comes to town... NOw that might be a very simplistic interpretation of the pompey saga, but it just highlights the naiviety and issues surrounding this fan and football world in general expectation of owners to stump up ....

Ahr but you forget 'Saints fans' first law of football club chairmanship' (the Lowe Law) which quite clearly states that anything remotely good that happens at a club is always despite the interference of the chairman and is teh result of all those who work at the club who the fans like... whereas everything remotely hideous or bad is the direct responsibilty of no one but the chairman. ;-) ...I can see it now, Lowe's law will be applied the moment we are winning - yet if we stutter it will NCs fault for not investing enough or 'interfering' or whatever else can be made up

..but that is in your opinion. I have no problem with how he has come across in public. I like the fact that he wants club business conducted outside of the media spotlight, has a determined character and I certainly dont give a flying fig if he is arrogant, egotistical or not.. makes no difference to me. In my opinion, the OS rant was fair - you say he should have supported Pards in public more...Why? As many have already suggested, there is a strong possibility that Pards could have been out on his backside come season end if had not delivered the form and style we showed during that last couple of months - probably as a result of moving goal posts that came with the January spend... so why lie to the public and coment on every media storm ina tea cup - and this constant desire to be fed information about every detail...what's the need? We will be told the facts when they are released by the club, everything else is just media speculation so treat it as such. I also think NC is in some respects like Lowe.. but so what, its only thsoe who simply wont be adult enough to discuss this issue with a pragmatic and open mind that are worried about that - Compare Lowe to Storrieteller for example - and although relegation was undoudtedly the result of managerial problems he created, we at least had the infrastructure in place to make us appealing to a new owner when we needed one... But the key is the financial stabilty and sound investment - investment that carries with it responsibilty - and expectation. I bet Pards knows exactly where he stands and I have huge resopec for him because he has the balls to take that on , with that degree of pressure - and I am sure NC has that respect for him as well.

Hi yup agree from a personal earnings perspective... but i am talking about monies taken direct form the club which is a UK registered business which has defaulted on its tax liabilities - in effect the monies owed to Chanrai (15 mil?) are coming from the coffers of the club (parachute payments) so would Chanrai still have protection against HMRC going after that? I admit I dont know enough about t, but if Storrieteller is the only director they could go after if the the club is liquidated and asetts transfered to a new club, he is hardly worth it for the HMRC in terms of bankrupting him for the sake of a few mil they might be able to squeeze out... how much is he worth? So they must have something else up his sleeve?

I think they can offer a preliminary contract subject to teh club comming out of administration which it could possibly do after agreement on the CVA?

Interesting - I am not sure of teh legalities, so someone with a knowledge of TAX law should correct, but I guess that by liquidating the comapny, the revenue will be able to go after the ex owners and directors.... especially those who have received their 20p for monies owed... I wonder what Chanrai is thinking as he may well get 100% as a preferred creditor, buyt could he lose it all to HMRC? Afterall he is was an owner who failed in tehir duty to ensure all Taxes were paid??

Very true, but this will not stop many from speculating based on what little they do know. I think the problem is as you have pointed out, is that most fans want more info, not less. but lets be realistic for a moment... we were talking about a SENSITIVE issue, in the 'sacking' or otherwise of a manager. I think had AP had the dreaded vote of confidenece, no one would have believed it anyway, so what was the point of any communication? For my part, or my speculation is twofold: 1. NC/ML do not conduct this sort of business in public, so we had better get used to it (I happen to agree with that as well) 2. We heard no lies, we heard nothing, and if I were to speculate I would suggest the following: When additioanl spending was granted in Jan last year, it came with certain caveats - an improvement in league position, and style, possibly with play off ambition attched... So its possible that APs role WOULD be reviewed at season end - and despite the ego of some believeing it all to be the pressure that meant he kept his job, something I thing is an INSULT to Pards by the way...because I think on review discussion, it was clear that we had achieved a great deal - just look at the run in, the JPT etc - the reingagement of fans with the club, the 50,000 or so at Wembley. NC is not stupid, he will have seen the positive steps made by Alan and so appreciated what we had despite being naturally dissapointed that we missed out on a playoff place... but some fans prefer to see conspiracy. I have no doubt that had Pards wasted the cash, that we had ended say in 10 or 12 with a mid table form, he may well have been out the door, hense possibly Pards own manipulation of the media with his hints etc... the pressure was on ... he delivered, NC and about 20000 + Pards and players ALL disspointed that we just failed to makle it, BUT alll recognising we gave it a bloody good go and it was close, so ALL recognise that we should be in good shape for next season wher promotion is the only target... end of story... nothing to see here etc... which is why NC was probably so ****ed off the media were kicking up a s hit storm fuelled unfortunately by fan paranoia, and quotes from the past figures. NC was not ****ed off with Matt and LM because of WHAT they said, afterall it was just support for Pards, but teh fact they said it at was fuel for the flames the media were trying to create.

This is the problem in some ways as its all semantics... whenever fans hear the word business or running the club as a 'business' its all gets too scary for some. Yet the principles still apply whether its manufacturing or footall... you need a product, a reputation and level of service that keeps your customers happy. Football has always fecked over its fans, because in many cases the owners know we cant simply become customers of our nearest competitors! BUt like you say, I also believe that NC will do what is best for the business, irrspective of personnal opinion, fan opinion, media opinion. However, keeping customers hapy IS important. but lets be honest about it for a moment - what would we rather have, a hard nose who is quiet, perhaps sometimes a little aloof or reclusive for our tastes, but gets on with job, runs a tight financially stable ship that has all the hallmarks of strong foundations on which to build, provides funds as required, but puts huge pressure on the manager to deliver with those funds BECAUSE he an the owner have ambition, but is delivering success...or a nice old school fan friendly Chairman, who goes on and on about giving teh club back to its fans, comes out with large numbers of fan platitudes, possibly some nice T shirts etc, spends money we dont really have because fans expect him to and then get us into financial trouble , but hey its all OK because he is closely engaged with the fans and community? Sure we wnat the best of both, but thats unrealistic, we donthave that, so if its a straight choice I know who I am behind. Sometimes NC will make unpopular decisions... it will happen, the question is whether its a right decision for the club long term, not whether its unpopular short term - That's what I mean about a change in mind set. The days of players jumping on the bus with fans after a game may be wonderful from a nostalgic view and have helped create the affinity we have with our clubs to this day, but they are long gone and if we want success, we need to understand that.