Frank's cousin

Also depends on teh financial circumstances and how trustworthy a manager is with the cash... And managers seem to want it both ways - bleet on and on when no cash is available...blah blah blah, even when they acknowledge the club has none... yet plead ignorance about financial matters when their exhaustive spending plans lead to masiive debt.... IMHO A decent 'Manager' is one who can: improve the players he has, can highly motivate and inspire, communicate well so that the squad know how to play together, and invests what funds are available WISELY... and stops moaning if the club has no money - because if thats the case it highlights the lack ability in getting the best out of players... and WTF did they take the job on as most know the financial position of a club when they take on the job....

To be honest, probably more the psychological barrier of getting past zero points - from that time on we have averaged 2 points a game... which would have won us the championship... the odd defeat and unexpected draw since then are par for the course and no one would be blinking an eyelid about such results had we managed to win 3-4 games more in those first 12-14 games....

Question: Were you under the impression that the monies provided by previous owners were 'gifts' a la Abramovic to cover the spending or 'investment in the squad, or were these always considered loans... I dont know enough about the history so this is speculation, but is there any possibilty that these initial 'gifts' were converted to secured loans at a Later stage? Even so the issue is that the club spent MORE than the combined sum of these loans + revenue on these player purchases and contracts... and biuut who is to blame? Redknapp for not 'getting involved in finance' (despite the fact he would have known about the contracts and its not rocket science to work out max revenues), Storrie for going along with it, or the successive owners for making promises on cash 'gifts' they did not keep - inwhich case its back to Storrie for not seeing the cash before committing to these contracts and again Storrie for allowing this to happen if they were indeed only loans, when the spending was in excess of these anyway....??

Thing is Brown is whatever you choose to believe he is right now...basd on your previous perceptions and how influenced you are by the media representation of him following what was in all truth something we have all done... eg. it would be equally as valid for me to say Brown now hadmore sympathy with many, because he has shown he is only human, and all leaders suffer at the stress and strain of such a campaign - But it all depends on what is said, who said it and where its said as to how its thenm percieved as a 'truth' by the population. Naturally its vital to a free socety to have a free press and a free media, but for me the media needs to take responibilty and understand that it is dealing with in some cases an unedereducated public and that ofetn connot distinguish between and editorial slant and down right propoganda. I have no problem with papers taking and editorial position, but I do have an issue with the likes of Murdoch rags that change this purely for their own gain... because they either know it will attract more readers or in Murdoch's case whichever party will be creating conditions more favourable to his business empire and personnal wealth... to me that is a perversion of democracy because he does not take his responibilty to that influence his papers yield over those politically naive, seriously - he uses and abuses those readers to suit his own aims...

Sorry, have to disagree there. The reason he considered it a disaster was quite simply that what had been filmed and braodcast was a traditional labour voter actually questioning the record and in particular bringing up that elephant in the room that is immigration... Personally, the fact that he made the gaffe does seem blown out of all proportion as come on lets be honest, how many times have we all said things that woudl be considered derogatory behind folks backs? It highlights for me though all that is wrog with politics in this country and with our obsession with the confrontational politics - the way the media and all parties focus on the slightest negative about each other rather than the positives that each of the parties bring to the table... its just utter pathetic playground politics with the percentage of the public whose swing left to right and right to left depending on what the 'Sun says' - having the power over all of us - This election is not about issues and debate, its about how the media have portrayed these leaders.... and the fact we have a population not mature enough to discuss issues such as immigration from a balanced perspective with all parties knowing it so they avoid the question. Lets take immigration for example for every person who believes the figures quoted in the media about the numbers from 'Eastern Europe' - how many can call up the numbers of Brits emmigrating to Spain, France, Aus, Canada to live and work? What is the net figure? How many of those who come here pay tax and NI versus are those exploited by 'British' employers and given low wages ? There are obvious social consequences to immigrationthat need to be discussed, but no where near as the 'fear factor/propoganda' elements of the media and certain parties have successfully caused an ignorant element of the population to believe....

I am not one of those that hates the skates... I have some good friends you support pompey, folk I admire and respect. BUt you need to stop being blinkered by your love for your club and look at this objectively. Firstly I am not a fan of a financial system that allows wealthy owners to write off debt as Abramovic does etc... In effect Chelsea's wage bill exceeds their revenue, but their owner writes this off every year by gifting the cash. Borrowing money either from banks, investment funds or wealthy owners is common practice in football and many teams do this - in most cases however, provided the teams stay in the Premiership they can service the repayments and the debts/loans are reduced annually either with interest payments or without interest in some cases. What is important here is a) ensuring the repayment plan is servicable and b) how and what the money is spent on. eg. If your revenue is 60 mil, your wages, overheads AND repayments on loans MUST/SHOULD be within the total revenue stream - although its not ideal, its fair enough and its living within ones means - the biggest problem faced by many clubs is that if relegated they still have contracts and loan repayments say totalling 40 mil with a reduction in revenue to say 20 mil and debts accumulate - in some cases where clubs have been in the top flight for a very long time, this is understandable as they may have taken out loans for major infrastructure such as new stadium several years earlier - this is investment the club is making in its self, not throwing out of the club on huge transfers and wages. Sensible clubs also where possible ensure a substantial wage reduction in contracts should the club be relegated to minimise the potential debt burden. Please note there IS a big difference in borrowing money from a credible institution such as a bank for infrstructure which benefits the club long term - eg a mortagge and where the repayments are managemable WITHIN the clubs revenue stream, than borrowing money from any source to try and improve the playing squad with transfer fees and wages that were grossly in excess of the annual revenue. This is what you guys dont seem to be able to grasp - that by doing this it is in effect cheating because you are gaining an unfair advantage in terms of squad quality with money you dont have and worse still with money you have no idea of how to go about paying it back... Now I have heard that plank grant whinge and moan that its not the clubs fault etc... blah blah, but think of it this way. The fans (and players) will all have known that the level of spending was way in excess of both the Sky moneys + gate receipts.... you do not need an O level maths to work that out - its very basic. So lets cut the fans and the players some slack (and even innocent Harry), that you all blindly assumed that in effect the owners of the club were gifting the overspend to the club on an annual basis - or even be more generous and assume they were loans - but that a proper and correct repayment structure was in place - all well and good... but what the accounts show is that the level of overspend authorised was inexcess of the loans and their repayments - its why you could not pay the tax man or the local schools - and this was all known over a year ago - yet the club instead of actioning a major restructure and cuts in playing staff and overhead.. continued to spend all without the fans or players or manager complaining that this might, just might be a problem... FFS The excuse that harry comes out with that he did not get involved in the finances is shameful... he must have had knowledge of what is sustatinable and what is not, meanwhile the fans lapped it up and lauded it over us in their FA cup run glory.... with players they should never have been allowed to sign... Yes we went into Admin... but NOT because we broke the bank on trying to buy success and that is a big moral difference, if not a legal one, which is why we took our punishment on the chin. Football has fecked itself... and yes I would like to see new tighter rules that mean all clubs MUST adhere to an annual budget based on their revenue. Where rich owners dip into pockets, this should be declared as part of the budget BEFORE the season starts and anyoverspend punished in the same way. What would we do if our Owner started loaning big sums to the club... Try and tell him to stop if these were a debt burden we would be saddled with should he decide to sell - but thankfully we have someone who runs his busines in an ethical and moral way - without debt - it may take us longer as a result to get back into the top flight, but we will enjoy it the more for it. When Pompey fans understand that their club did indeed cheat because the club never had a plan for repaying teh borrowings that they invested in transfer and wage bills in excess of their revenue, then I will have sympathy for your plight, but this constant refusal to accept the club cheated, and should somehow be treated softly and with sympathy is shameful... and thats the reason you find no sympathy here.

Thing is Micky - much the same could have been said with threads on here when we were suffering our problems with it being very difficult to have 'sensible' debate on the ownership issue. Ok not to the same extent, but fans in general do tend to ignore the fact their actions would have played some part - eg in Pompeys case they seem to exclude the fact that no one even bothered to question how they were paying for the 'success' - just lapped it up... in our case the excrement would hit the fan, the moment anyone suggested that the reduced gates reduced both the income and the confidence of the banks in being able to service our debt... The fact that now in hindsight there are many who feel it was all justified to oust Lowe and how wonderful its turned out, the fact remains that had ML not decided to come back for a second look we could well have been out of business. ..but yes they do seem on mass to believe the media hype that its all so 'unlucky' and a tradegy of no ones making, when the club is responsible for its mess and it highlights the need for fans to be vigilant about how the club is being run financially - if it seems too good to be true it very likely is....eg, during the 2008/9 season what was more likely, that one of teh owners was investing /donating 30 mil to the club to cover the huge wage bill - or were racking up unsustainable debt.....?

Agreed, for me that summed up everything that an owner should be... the joy and excitement he showed that day is priceless... we seriously could not have asked for a better owner IMHO, because its clear that he will fall in love with this club without any baggage for the past.

My take and please correct if I am wrong.... I think this is the real crunch... Because of the Parachute payments being paid directly to cover the footballing creditors in full, this will in effect mean that this revenue never appears on the Pompey balance sheet, but the footballing creditors will be removed... this means that the Pompey will in effect satisfy part of the FL ruling that all football related debts must be paid in full. This then leaves the matter of the CVA with the HMRC and remaining creditors (owed approx 70 mil or thereabouts)/ Pompey will in effect get 32 mil in parachute payments so after footballing debts this will leave about 7-8 mil which they will probably not get until late 2011. The issue as I see it will not be about HMRC and teh FL rule, because pompey will not see the majority of that cash anyway, and those debts will be paid, but more likely the HMRC questioning the issue of preffered creditor status of the various ex owners etc... In efect the HMRC will become the largest non preffered creditor, something I think they may well challenge in court if its considered that there may have been some shenaniggans going on to ensure previous owners became preferred creditors? Either was after footballing debts are taken paid off in full direct from teh Parachute payments, then as I see the maths the HMRC will probably by very close to being owed more than 25% - which could prevent Pompey from gaining their CVA. BUt it obviously depends on what figure Android comes up with if a buyer is found as to how many of the creditors will accept the offer... Funnily enough the fact that there is a substantial amount tied up in preffered creditor status (30 mil odd?) is actually another nmegative as a buyer will need to cover this in total + provide additional sums to satisfy teh HMRC and the remaining creditors to avoid the -17 points? Is Pompey worth investing say 40 mil plus in? Alternatively their best option is for one of teh existing preferred creditors to buy teh club and write off or service their own debt.. because this would probably mean the carcus could be purchased for about 25 mil to satisfy HMRC + remaining creditors? Either way its a lot of money for what is left. What I dont understand is what AA is doing at present as he seems to be preparing for a creditors meeting to present an offer, but how is this possible if no buyer has made an offer, or is this just to try and gauge what would be acceptable and thus set the price? I suspect its going to get very complicated, with AA offering a structured deal paid for by the remaining parachute cash + the extra parachute cash he seems to think is due for years 3 and 4 but there appears to be confusion over this as I am not sure it takes effect until next season... so they would mis out on approx 16 mil which he may be factoring in... Afterall if they were to get 48 mil in parachute payments over 4 years + player sales say anet of 10 mil that would be 58 mil , Take away the footballing debt (24 mil) leaves about 34 mil - take away the prefered creditor payment leaves around 8 mil + whatever a buyer brings to the table say 15 mil. that would give about 23 mil to pay off HMRC + creditors a percentage - Is that possible? Does the above amke sense or am I talking boll ox? I am probably completely confused, because the mess is bigger that my brain can comprehend... PS. Respect to those fnas who paid off the charity stuff - whatever else happens, it shows decency and integrity and I for one just feel sad that they have had to do this - but respect anyway.

See Grant is still bleating on about how 'unfair' it all is - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/p/portsmouth/8642368.stm does he not have an ounce of self awareness? Cant believe he has the cheek, considering the players he is using should not be on the park...

But it wont go near the club... just fans raisning money directly for the St Johns Amb. So in theory the fans can donante the £2707 or whatever, but unless teh St Johns then issue Pompey with a credit note against the invoice the debt will still stand... I susupect they would close the account though. Hats off to those who are doing this and have donated... its shows class, rarher than those constantly looking for sympathy.

This is interesting Wes... if you look on the HMRC web site and read up on PAYE, its always teh Employee (player) that is ultimately responsible for ensuring they have paid the correct amount of tax - eg even if teh employer deducts and pays some to HMRC you are still liable for the rest... Now I am not sure about the legals in this case as in effect the players have paid their tax as it was deducted at source by teh club in the normal PAYE way, but this was not paid to HMRC which is surely fraud? Why? Because the players wage slips will staete the deduction as Income TAX, yet this is in fact not the case... what is teh legal situation on this, any lawyers out their care to comment?

NOt surprizing - the FA were never going to back this - it would be an insult to UEFA rules o finance... and teh FA would rather like the UEFA backing for the 2018/22 bids....

Agreed... I think that is the problem... If you cut through the banter, I dont think there are many real football fans that want to see any club fold... BUT, fans cannot whinge and moan if they were happy to accept and ignore where that money was comming from whilst it brought them success and fantasy stories of 50,000 seater grounds... surely there were some amongst them that could see this was bull shi t ? Its why I think it was important we took our punishment and accepted that even though our debt was not designed to 'buy' success at any cost, local buinesses will have lost out etc and for that we were punished... The Scale of their debt and risk taking is worse than Leeds who were only 60 mil in debt.... yet they seem oblivious to the consequences with most fans still pleading for sympathy... sorry, I dont want to see any club dissappear, but teh fans need to accept any punishment because they accpepted the spending without question...as did Redknapp as he happily points out whilst living in a 10 mil house...Uhm...

Funny how not many rated Lallana after his first real season... arguably our best talent

Truth? Now thats a big hope... and why is your 'truth' any more valid than Up and Aways? Because you do not agree with it? I have absolutely no idea what the 'Truth' is... All I can see is what appears to extreme bias from many directions with a few posters valiently trying to illustrate a more balanced perspective that has its logic based on possibilty ratrher than clouded by hatred or blinkered by 'a love in' There are very FEW FACTS in the public domain - the vast majority of what is read on here is still just speculation based on 3rd and 4th hand rumour with each side simply selecting the bits that support their own theories. It helps no one, to rake over old ground, and as we see just brings up old bitterness... I wasted way too much time on here for those years, and its simply noit worth it. Foldk will believe what they chose to believe based on their own rational/irrational opinion of the LOwe, and disregard anything that contradicts their opinion. That was always the problem - Fans became so polarised and set in their opinion based on their perception of Lowe's mistakes/'achievements', that it prevented any balanced discussion on what happened later. I think Duncan, probably gets it about right (IMHO) - someone whose opinion I have always respected, even if not always agreed with. He has had more fallings out with Lowe and has actually spoken to him so I would guess knows more about him than most. Lowe was not evil, but most likely too egotistical to accept advice in areas that most impact on fans - commercially the club now is being run as Lowe wanted to run it - within its means - no big risks, no ramping up the debt - where are those fans now who screamed for 'investment when we were in the prem, who to this day have never provided a satisfactopry explanation of its funding without increasing debt? - as they say, if it was that easy to generate investment, clubs would not be in debt and Pompey would not be in their shi te... The difference now is we are simply happy to have a club owned and managed by NEW folk that were neutral and seem determined to see us succeed without unnecessary financial risk... something that we as a fanbase seem more at ease with or satisfied with now than under Lowe's tenure. What you believe about the admin timing will depend on your leel of hatred for Lowe - and nothing anyone seems to say witll change that for those on either side of that divide... my twopenneth worth is more a question of logic... because if Lowe was as egotistical as I do acknowledge he was... the BEST way to stick two fingers up at the 'lunatic fringe' was not through failure but through demonstrating his approach was right all along. Given the closeness to seasons end at the time, I believe Lowe thought that we would survive until the end of the season, be able to ship a few out on relegation (as we did) and pay back the majority of the OD. Start in L1 on zero and build with his 'wunderkinds' and dutch masters.... Footballing naiviety for sure, but commercially not unreasonable - Barclays may well have pulled the plug as they would have been unure of our level of future income from gates etc, given that crowds were going down. Who knows, but the truth is known to a few only, and maybe we should remember that?

Surely, you can love Pards for what he has given usthis season in terms of results, improvement, attitude, passion, and committment... but also express your opinion on your preferred style and questions on tactics etc...is that not what normal fans do all the time? I think the problem some have when ever anyone raises a question about Pards, is that we have suffered for so long, that to get to a point where there is an obvious recovery, some great results, an obvious push for promotion etc, it can seem churlish to expect more or something different...but that does not make the points any less valid. I believe Pards will get us promoted - more likely next season, with a set of results that will amke us proud... but there will be times when questions are still raised about our style and performances and that is only natural.

That really is a bit sad... If you believe that it just shows you dont know Lowe's ego. His ego and desire to stick two fingers up to the doubters and those that hated him (and his desire tos ave his shae value) is what drove him to come back and get into bed with Wilde... his desire was to save the club as he saw it from Crouch's incompetance... The fact thatthe OD had been reduced and was being brought back albeit slowly inline with the agreement with Barclay's was first step... Lowe can be accused of many mistakes including the issue with Pearson and the dutch boys, but taking us into admin to spite us is pretty naive and unless you can prove it, libellous...

Uhm... they love em for several reasons but the main is that they are still Prem so its news... there is never this sympathy for clubs outside the prem in difficulties, even though in most cases those clubs have in no way got near the internal wrong doings that have gone on at Pompey... I would have more sympathy with the fans if they had been questioning where the money was coming from or not when they began their uncontrolled spending under 'arry... but they just lapped it up without question despite knowing that a 20,000 gate and the contracts they were signing up for were unsustainable...

Recent viewings... No Country for old Men - yup its superb In Bruge - watched this a few time now and I think give it afew more years and it will be a cult classic... some great one liners A Serious Man - not sure what to make of it really - typical old school Coen Brothers, interesting and some good moments, well acted and interesting, but somethjing missing?

Jeez, There is nobody who wants Pardue gone... end of, not sure where that presumption comes from. In Pards we have an astute, intelligent adn decent amanger who has done really well this season indeed our points tally is slightly over 2 per game from the moment we got past the 0 points psychological barrier, which is championship winning form. Secondly, I dont think anyone expects us to go an entire season unbeaten, and the reality of football is that there will be slip ups etc things happen, and there are always off days. BUT some have merely asked questions when the manner of defeats we have suffered seem at odds with the squad quality and investment, thats all. In some of those games, it looked liek we were tactically out thought. Yes we are in League 1, so the level of diversity and tactical nous required with this squad next season (not being negative, but after Huddersfield clawed it back yesterday, I think they will be bouyant enough to clinch that final place irrespective of how e finish the season - just need to keep the pressure on by winning and see what happens) to gain promotion is well within Pards abilities and Markus' budget. But if we just look at this from a purely footballing perspective for a moment, the side has made treendous progress and really developed under Pards watchful eye...no doubt about it. The ability of Pards to spot a player is not being questioned (just hope we can now hang on to them, but we still at times get too narrow and lack any width especially defensively etc and yet when we do go wide we are a real threat so its a bit odd that we often play a little one dimensionally - and often its those games we have lost. So the question is perhaps NOT about this season but that if we want continuity of a manager for 5+ years, which we all know is what is needed for success, whether Pards has the knowledge, especially when we get on the verges of the prem to take us to that final higher level tactically? That is in no way saying we want rid, or that he should have done better this season, but a genuine question. Personnally I think and hope he can - hes a decent guy and has shown the passion we need and a eye for a player and looking at the improvements we have seen since the start of the seaosn in certain players its clear his backroom staff know how to get a lot more out of players... but that does not make it wrong to ask questions... its teh essence of footbal dbate afterall...

The difference between the two is obvious: one club when in the prem took out a loan to build infrastructure for the future at a time when the repayments were more than manageable and whose financial problems were not due to this loan the other club when promoted bought players and paid wages way beyond their income.... saints could afford the loan repayments but aditmedly were rightly deducted points because of spending aprox 5 mil for a promotion push in the CCC when we should have stuck it in the bank It should be obvious that there is a difference we have taken ourpunishment andthe reason that there is perhaps some bitterness is because despite pompeys actions being far worse, your fans the media **** redknapp all seem to think that you deserve sympathy rather than punishment and are getting off lightly as the Premier league look to save face - because theirself proclaimed 'greatest league in the world ' tagline is based on unsustainable debt and **** poor financial management

This stats and prediction malarky is mad... the form guide for the last 12 games has us second only to Millwall and with a points average that would see us sneak 6th if this carried on to Seasons end...just... Thing is without being 'negative' I can see both Huddesfield, and Colchester dropping the required points... we beat Brizzle and then its just down to us getting 13/15... and thats the great unknown as its not exactly Saints forte.... The good news as far as I am concerned is that if we take our season form after we hit zero points then our points average from that point onwards is exactly 2 per game - which is championship winning form.

To be fair, Leeds going off the boil seemed to coincide with Beckford 'staying'... when he was nearly off to Newcastle... As the OP mentions, its tricky to read tooo much into the table at Christmas for many clubs, but NOrwich have built momentum and are sitting pretty after a stuttering start.... for me it wil be about Saints showing that momentum.... getting better and better as teh season progresses and building on what I hope will be a good start... by the Jan next seasion I would wxpect us to be in the top 5 with the gap between the sides small - we will have the rersources, the squad etc so the 'luck' aspect is why I say top 5 not top 2, because it also depends on what other clubs do... I want to see us be able to grind out wins as well as play a fluid and expansive game... Under AP we have shown glimpses of what the squad can do, abut we have all recognised we need a little more consistency and possibly some more variety tactically. I am confident we will get that next season. Yes there is sometimes a danger that we forget its a 'marathon not a sprint' - and if we start well its really vital AP can maintain the momentum, but if we are building nicely say 5-6 points off the top in 4-5 th spot, I will be quite happy at Christmas... if we are mid table and 15 points off the playoffs? It is a very tough call - and one that can really only be answered in hindsight... I am just gald I dont have to make that sort of decision.

Uhm slight difference though... we did not go mad on players... we did not give an open cheque book to a manager with a reputation for maximising the number of expensive deals, in effect we did not put together a squad that we could not afford to either avoid relegation OR give us a chance of success - BIG difference which the ignorant **** at Leyton Orient could do well to remember... our problems were compounded by the stadium loan, but this infrastructure investment could hardly have been called a huge advantage, since we were relegated twice anyway without any points deductions effecting it... because we were not good enough because we had NOT bought players we could not really afford until it was too late anyway... (this makes me so angry) - I still believe its right that we were opunished, not because of cheating at football (as Pompey/Leeds did etc), but because by going into admin the debt is in effect paid off for (in our case) about 40-50p in the pound, and I still think this is wrong. Redflapps makes me laugh... still claiming he knew nothing about the finance.... does he really think we are that gullable, the man who transfereed some 100+ players whilst at West Ham in 4 years of which only 8 o so ever made a first team appearence? (nothing to see here...move along now) No he must have known what it would be doing to the club alright, its why he got out? So pompey get to the cup final... so what... sure it would ahave been different had the CRouch's goal been rightly given, but what annoys me most is that sychophantic attitude of teh media, as 'poor old pompey' deserve our sympathy... sory they dont and the only fans that do are the few who were questioning the spending at the time and showed the type of precience that seemed to have alluded Storrie and Redknapp....