Frank's cousin

ahr...nostalgi.. not been back since 1990 - £58 it cost then... nice hot dry weather, girl friend in small tent, bloke selling toilet roll for £5 a roll (with plenty of takers), not many for the vegan samosas mind - but still remember the headache from the fricken mulled cider - best not consumed in large quantities in 30 C heat followed by some good quality.... James were good, as were primal scream... and the legend that is Roy harper in the Acoustic Tent as it was then.... thems was the days

Cheating... IMHO is surely when for WHATEVER REASON - monies used to gain a competitive advantage are not paid back when required to do so. Simple really. I am comfortable admitting (saying I am happy to would confuse the issue) we 'cheated' - we were unable to provide the funds to Barclays when they called in the overdraft - for whatever reason - but the difference that many pompey fans fail to appreciate is that this was AFTER we had tried to address this by giving ourselves a competitive DISADVANTAGE by shipping out high earners and plyer lower cost youngsters - and whats more, when new owners came in, they paid up in full what was considered reasonable by the TWO creditors - well over 50p in the £. When you take into acccount the interest and additional fee paid to Aviva on returning to the prem, we will have actually paid 95% of what teh original stadium loan was - so I feel comfortable with that - agian because the creditor was in full agreement. So our debt was acumulated primarily by infrastructure investment - so was this borrowing giving us a competitive advantage? You could argue its purpose was to provide additional funds, but short term the expansion will only have covered the repayments on the original loan and yielded maybe and aditional 1m a year in revenue - 20K a week in teh prem, will not and did not give us any sort of advantage so even the dumbest of the dumb can see its not teh same as gettinginto 120mil +58 mil of debt in 7 years with nothing to show for it because its all dissappeared on transfers, and wages... That mike cahp - spoke elloquently and with lot of sense, a true and passionate fan of his club, but even he falls short of acknowledging that any success they have had, was as a result of that debt - if its all paid back, then they can hold their heads high and be happy with their cup win... 0.2p in the £ tarnishes it as well as their prem period forever in my book.

Anti-Adkins threads seem symptomatic of a lack of patience/want it now generation - the irony so often lost on these boards is taht when things are going weel, fans want continuity of leadership - the 10 year + manager we are told leads to success... yet the moment a manager needs time to figure it out, earn and gain the epxerience at a higher level, some seem to reach for the knives - which is it to be? This aint about sentimentality - its about a belief that for long term success, you need stabilty and a club that is committed to building a culture, system and style based on a common goal form U12 - to first team - that takes more than 3 years, try 8-10. Therefore it goes without saying that if thats the aim a club and its fans need to grow some and stick with it despite the possibilty of set backs along the way. The only reason for this 'panic' is money - the fear of loosing the sky millions for a season or two and too many clubs wil never do anything better because this fear governs their entire strategy - I like to think we have ball large enough to cope with the difficulties that come with focusing on the long term - stick with it and we may well be surrised as the results it can yield... enjoy the ride FFS and stop worying about what may or may not happen in teh short term.

Just wodering whether these had been brokered or reserved by some corpoarte or reseller type? or it mey be a system bug, but I suspect that the TO will have a set tuime for a comprehensive review of the system after a few games - which would be nornmal practice after installing a new system - would like to think so anyway.

Think you meant to quote Saint Boggy there Alps - but fair comments none-the-less - Highlights really how complex an issue this is... was once asked why I am pro choice and for legal abortions, when I am so obviously keen on trying to reduce the number tha happen.... my response was simple; I have a daughter and whilst I would like to think she will always be able to come to me or her mum with her issues and problems, kids and even teh best teenagers often never know where to turn - if she ended up pregnant at 15 and made teh worng choice (eg not confiding in her parents), and took her decision to abort, would much rather she was in the capable hands of the NHS or at least a decent private clinic, than taking a chance with some back street type as in the old days - the legality brings with it safety - even if there are unanswered questions and other dilemmas .

There is nothing worng with doubting his CURRENT level - we KNOW he is struggling at times - the difference is that most believe he should be given the chance to sow what he can do, that he can learn - even if it takes 2 or 3 more seasons as we KNOW he will be a VERY good manager at the top level at some point - so most do not feel he should be sacked. If you are one of those that believes there is no other football than the prem and that being top flight is SOOOO important to your own ego, then getting in a FAT SAM type might keep us up... but like to think we are looking at the longer term and not just panicing over a the prem revenues - I dont know what s sadder; thats the SKY moeny has created such an economic divide and makes clubs panic and behave in a way that staying up is all that ever matters, of the fans that have been suckered in to this attitude as well...

No. We targeted younger players that have potentual to develop further - investemnet in long term rather than a quick fix. If you believe that we shoudl play and do whatever it takes to stay up, then we should just have bought 3 or 4 'units' and parked the bus - then other fans could say we were doing it 'right' in the very narrow and blinkered attitude some fans have - the legacy of the sky millions and media focus on the prem - if you believe that to be the best you can takes several years of invetsment in younger players (and as with all things osme will go right, some wrong), and thats its more important that we take a long term view to play an attcking passing game, then no, we have done OK, but have possibly missed out on another defender at some point - as all clubs do unless very lucky.

er clearly he is... I suspect what you are saying is someone who will play whatever style is necessary even parking the fricken bus to try and secure annual survival -or someone at a big rich club who can afford to buy in 200mil of talent and only need to worry as to whether his sill will see them finish in a CL space or not? Its not as if we have had the wool pulled over our eyes is it - NIgel and the club have always stated they want to play our brand of football - yes we need to sort out the defence, but if you want to play and attacking passing style, you cant put it all on hold for a season and change it just to stay up - because you will have the same problems whenever you try and introduce it, unless you have build a squad as time allows that lets you play it. Change to a 'stay up at all costs' defensive style now, and we end up like half the others in the prem; more concerned about survival than entertaining fans. NIgel to his credit so far has stuck toi his guns, made quite a few mistakes as he learns, but lets be honest, with Clyne, Richardson and Ramirez we would have been 3-0 up by half time... and no recently promoted side has teh squad depth some seem to think we shoudl have sorted over night...

Saint boggy - thanks for posting that and providing your insight. I dont believe anyone should start 'picking holes' in your reasoning - it is your choice and one that ony you can and should make a decsion on. I guess my problem is that there are those whose reasons (not in your case) seem entirely driven, perhaps by society's attitudes. Many abortions do seem to be based on reasons that if within a different set of cultural ideas, might not happen - I am talking about the **** poor levels of sex education, that see us have the highest teenage preganancy rate in Europe - and highest teen abortaion rate - we cant prevent 100% with contraception, as you hae sadly found out, nothing is 100%, but we could at least ensure youngster are using it and properly in the first place. Thats the main area where we will have to disagree - 'thousands of children in social care' - is not IMHO a reason to jsutify abortion - its a reason to try and educate better to prevent pregnancy when not wanted, for sure and its sad that we have such a poor record in this area... mainly because the moment someone suggests a more graphic and detailed Sex education program introduced at a younger age (as they have in those countries with the lowest rates) some jumped up Tory daily mail reading moralist insists its some sort of perverted indoctrination.... Perhaps the area that is most diffcult to understand - and maybe this is just me - but I never undestood those young healthy folk in a stable relationship, that made the decision on timing or some other reason that was truely selfish (I dont think you were being selfish buy the way, you state yourself that you had to think about your children first and what wa sright for your familiy unit ) but I do know of examples of where this has happened both whilst at University and later with folk in first jobs at start of careers - in both these cases, a child will have slowed things down and as always changed perspectives, but would not have prevented these peole from going on and still doing things they wanted to do... especially as in both cases the partners were very positive and supportive about a future with person and with a child... I dont know what the answer is, I certainly dont believe in changes in legislation, apart from bringing the limit for elective intervention down to no more than 16 weeks or so (with the caveats that there is no delay that takes it over this time caused by the NHS or private practice -AND imprtantly that non-elective termination on medical advice is possible at any stage). The more difficult are those situations where there is a detected genetic abnormality - whether Downs or some other condition - where the kids can grow up to lead happy fullfilling lives. The paralympics showed what is possible for many of these kids... I dont know what I would have done in that situation... or whether I would have tired to persude my wife one way or another... a moral and ethical minefield, yet I guess if you take all the personal reasons out of the equation (which I appreciate you cant) , should not the real question just be quite simple: Would this collection of cells/foetus/child have a chance of a happy and as healthy as can be expected, life?

What I'd ask the club, is whether the pockets' of empties are actually sold tickets or a problem with the system, which is it? There are always the odd spaces where ST holders csant make it, and dont pass on the ticket... but the pockets being in the same areas, could be 'sold' tickets to some corporate ticket supplier... used to have two of these next to me when last in the prem - STs owned by local firm that let them out to employees and customers...not always filled for the cat C games... Firm I work for also sponsors a prem club and has a box and as well as 10 additional stand seets that get raffled to staff on a match by match basis... not always possible for winners to attend. So if we have a 'sell out' and there are empties, whats going on?

Take away the money he has spent to achieve that and what are you left with though?

Ok to humour the OP.. Yes we can ignore Redflaps... beciause he is not very good. He believes he is good, and has pals in the media who fawn over him... but for someone once touted as an England manager, his record is pretty crap - 1 trophy. An that won with a squad of international mercenaries they could not afford - Ok Spurs did well, but given the value of that squad and the amount of money spent you would expect it. Does anyone not see the pattern... he comes, he spends, he has some success and then he leaves as the board realise, how much have we spent? The one time he has no money to spend, he fails - at Saints where he had 20 odd games and we were not in the relagtion zone, and with arguably a better overall squad than we have now... yet you advocate having him back to do it again? madness The club has stated it wants to have amodel based on home grown talent that is COACHED to be the best they can. Yes, Nigel is inexperienced at this level, but we also have a squad that is learning the hard way... hopefully tehy will gain what they need an dsurvive, but chnaging strategies so early is daft. ...and thats without even mentioning Rosie, the 140+ transfers at West ham in 5 years (10 or so of which ever player for the first team...).... and other associated baggage.

No its still there - try the link from Matt slater

Aye puts the old rolloing around in agony footballers to shame!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/19863795

Yes at school with lads the same or similar age - part of growing up. Grown men should know better and not take advantage - Thankfully for most of us our tastes mature in line with age... pretty stupid comment to make mate - 15 year old fumbling around with 16 year old boyfriend is one thing. 20+ man fumbling around with 15 year old is out of order, and sickening really.

Would Mr Illingsworth care to respond? First they seem to make a bit of deal out of it - then lower down mention their football finance expert believes its a normal thing to ensure we have funding available in January for squad strengthening? ... Could they not have started with that spin and demonstrated to the club they are not trying to stir, but reflecting views? Might help them a bit with comments... I agree with those that are curious for more information - natural to want transparency on these things, especially after what the club has been through and as others have stated in light of the debt free comments from NC. I just tend to think the 'football finance' expert is closer to the mark and as such when put in perspective is unlikely to warrant the level of concern or outrage expressed by some. Clubs are ALWAYS naturally cagy about these things - if afterall it is for a Jan spend, do the club want the amount available in the public domain and thus giving away an advantage in any transfer negotiation - Club is in a difficult place there, fans want info and reassurance, but needs to protect its commercial advantage.

Worthington - the one and only

As irksome as it si, theuir current wage bill willbe under 65% of turnover given their parachute payments - still instead of opaying that back to creditors, they spend it on a squad that is unaffordable to most L1 sides....

I dont think anyone is suggesting that there are swathes of women who have abortions as a last form of cntraception... but I would argue that there are many more case in the which the reason is NOT rape, or medical dangers to child/mother or the ethical dilemma of say something like Downs.... Firstly as mentioned before, I am pro Choice - it is afterall an individuals right to choose. Secondly, the issue of term is an important one... as science moves forward we get to a point where babies/foetuses (still the same thing whatever we call them) routinely survive when born before the legal cut off point - to me that cant be right? But that is a seperate issue But, surely as a society we should question what DRIVES people to make that decison, and whether its the nature of our perhaps somewhat 'selfish; society that people often feel comfortable terminating due to 'timing'? Maybe its just me, but had I been 17, 27 or 37 - I would like to think that being a father would be more imporatnt than anything else - depsite what hardships and restrictions that responibilty may throw at me... I guess I am just asking maybe why that is maybe not such a common view? I am am not judging the individuals who make thos decsions, but asking a question as to whether the way society has gone, makes those decisons easier.. and whether that is a good thing?

Where did I mention 8000 at £1500? Seems a claisic ploy on this forum, make stuff up to support a POV, rather than looking for more detail.... guess its why we are happy to accept the most expensive football price is Europe with crowds declining... The funny thing is, maybe not funny, maybe a bit sad really, is that I would have thought most fans would look at aspirational plans and see that as a positive and WELCOME discussion on ideas and concepts that would make it reality EARLIER than a more risk averse strategy might mean.... yet we have several on here who despite this all being a hyperthetical discussion (as we have feck all knowledge of what the club is planning or its time frame) seem unable or unwilling to even EXPLORE the practicalities of alternatives that would realise this.... Like I said, if you had actually bothered to read it properly, no one suggested '8000 at £1500' - merely that 8000 at £300 in addition to the current numbers at the current levels would be doale financially - yes Turks was right to question whether this would mean some who currently pay more might want/qualify for those additional cheaper seats and I acknowledged, I am not sure what mechanism is employed to police this abroad, but it works... so there is a solution to that issue. ...but then again we have fans who were happy to screw the club when it was skint by sharing STs to avoid paying a few years back, and some who carried on going when they defaulted on their payment plans.... still have many who moan and whinge about prices, moan and whinge about pretty much everything so am surprized some of them actually bother to go in the first place... but am not really surprized we also have some who see eveything as a fait de complis and are not prepared to discuss alternatives even in a hypethetical situation.... Just odd.

WTF are you on about? Anyone could see what he meant - typos happen... and yes I doesnot effect me/you or anyone else, but why should that stop discussion about it?

Nope, cant explain as mentioned, I dont know how they do it over the channel, but they do. Maybe ask Bayern? Seriously, You play a fricken good devil's advocate Turks, as you dont let it lie, but FFS, will you never acknowledge that the concept has been shown to work, or that the idea is one that could ensure a bigger crowd wthout compromising revenues? FWIW, I dont believe NC would consider this, because one thing my thoughts on this do not factor in is the impact of relegation or risk associated with even greater down turns in the economy - especially when its now clear that any monies needed to fund such a scheme would need to come from either loans (and its not a time in which these would be cheap) or by heavily compromising the budget available for wages and transfers. But that does not undermine the fact that you dont need 3-5 years of an ST waiting list of 4-5000 to generate a business model that would work/be justifiable IF the intention is also to expand what is classified as the 'regular' fan base.

Fantastic post - genuine insight and compassionate, yet balanced opinion. I just wish I had the skill in prose to get my POV across as eloquantly, so thanks for sharing that. Some have argued that its the point at which consciousness arrises that a 'life' becomes a life, but as that moments is still very much open to debate, I dont think that is the answer - and whilst I totally agree with your points made in the first paragraph - and indeed, I would also support my daughter in whatever decision she came to under those circumstances, I do still feel that in part as a society we have created an environment that accepts abortion as an expedient too often - maybe a legacy or reaction to the legacy of days gone by when women had no rights and no choice but either 'shame' or risk their own lives and future fertility in some darkend celler of the illegal practioner - thankfully, the legality at least ensures that way is no longer necessary. I just feel its such a shame that some women do take this option, for no other reason than inconvenience and despite the soul seraching and difficulty in reaching such a decision, its the fact that often what I regard as more trivial things... career, money or 'its not the right time' takes precedence over what is quite frankly a pretty amazing miracle. Maybe we simply dont place enough emphasis on the amazingness of pregnancy and new life within our 'modern' culture - it seems to play second fiddle to those 'more important' things. Its certainly not for me to determine how individuals make life choices, but I just feel that if as a society we maybe judged our 'success' more on how we bring up our children, and less on the material gains or promotion, or even when younger 'freedom to have a laugh', the decsion to keep a child would be so much easier than the one to abort. So yes I am pro choice - we have to have that option available and it is down to the individual to make it... just maybe if anything should be 'preached' its that pretty much nothing comes close to bringing a child in this world and nuturing a new person - no living it large holifay with your mates, no promotion, no big house or flash car, nothing - even when its tough financially - its still teh most amazing thing IMHO.