Frank's cousin

So why do they do it then? whatever the reasons it works - and no I do not know how they ensure these tickets are available to those demographics, but there is undoudtedly a way to do this.... I just find it od that you are constantly so dismissive of concepts that dont register with your mid set - seems a pretty archaic way of behaving, and perhaps one which shows why our industry and business is so fricken backward compared to other countries, where there is a more open spirit in looking at differnet options, innovation etc. There are plenty of 'old school' fans who moan constantly about football becomming elitist due to being priced out - at 30k in the prem we simply do not have the option as we will be budgeting based on the current pricing model - 40K offers that CHOICE should the club wish to get the 5 match a season fans to full ST holders - a hyperthetical discussion. You need to stop thinking of it in terms of more fans at cheaper prices and go back to the fact its about attracting a bigger gate that means greater revenue - that is what its about, the broader price range is merely a method that COULD be used if increasing demand was a necessity to ensure we utilised the capacity, but importantly looked to build a larger fan base going forward... cant see what is wrong with that as a concept. This is not base don some mythical numbers, or attracting fans from 50 miles away, but looking to get those who all ready attend to attend more often.

my guess is 'hairy c....'

...I know I should not bother, but one last time.... 1. The only reason to have an increased capacity is if yu can guarrantee increased TOTAL match day revenue 2. If loans/borrowings are needed to pay for such infrastructure development, that TOTAL increased revenue MUST EXCEED teh current revenue even after a sensible repayment is made - ergo, The BUSINESS vcase for expsnsion is an AN INCREASE in TOTAL revenue Ok with me so far? - thats the easy bit, and I would not believe you would struggle with the first two points or diasagree? but I cant be sure 3. Football fans come in all shapes and sizes and now more than ever across a wider demographic - MANY fans complain they have been priced out of football as sufficient n umbers of more affluent fans grab the tickets and thus with the introduction of all seater stadia there has been a massive hike in price. 4. Some clubs have addressed this by offering a limited number of cheaper seats 5. Many fans can still not afford an ST and have to choose to only go to say 4 or 5 games a seaosn, some a few more, or take tehir kids as a treat. still with me? 6. Some clubs, especially those in Germany, recognised that they to maintain an atmosphere, you need full stadia, and to attract those often younger fans that make that atmosphere you need to ensure it is affordable... 7. Whilst we do already have a range of prices - even the cheapest at say £450 is much more than some can justify, especially in the climate and when you add all the extras on top, a bit of food, pint, travel etc 8. NO ONE is going to change the current pricing whilst we have near as damit, 30K paying the current rate, and we can assume that those 30k will continue to come. 9. Would we attract an extra 8000 pe game if we had a section of the ground where STs cost say £300 - around £16 per game? I believe so. 10. That is approx £2.4 mil a year - which we say those 8000 spend say £3 each at the ground is another say 300K profit after cost of sales - so lets assume and extra 3 mil is generated without even improving the experience and selling more at the higher end of the spectrum 11. a 20mil loan to cover that cost over 20 years would cost around 2mil a year - so we would yield a small additional revenue, but more imporatntly you are atracting more fans and creating a longer term legacy. 12. Would NC ever contemplate such a move? who knows... and no he wont spend money if we are doing fine with what we have etc. but dont underestimate teh power of ego or taht he might also see the advantage of haveing a more expansive regular attending fan base either 13.... Fry has wittered on about brand errosion... well fair point, but woudl you say Bayern or Dortmund have eroded their brand by offering a 180 Euro STs? 14. This was never about whether NC would go down thsi route or not, but about whether a case could be made within a reasonable buisness model that would allow a club to expand its attendance by tickets being affordable to a greater demographic - I believe there is.

Yes

I find that a little rich, considering wher the majority of the sneering eminates from - and you are missing the point. In the previous debates some (not me ) were trying to make a case of expansion as we would have 1000's left without tickets thsi year, and quite rightly its clear that is not the case at this time - no big deal. The discussion moved on to whether there were genuine business models that might work to attract greater numbers (WITHOUT compromising brand value, or increased revenue necessary to not only cover investment cost but actually increase total revenue) - which I believe there are and have merely used other clubs where such models are empoyed as examples... so not sure what is so controvercial about that. Finally you talk about 'what our fanbase' is right now - well on what criteria are you judging the size of the fanbase? - Yes the obvious one is current attendance at the current price point - but you know as well as anyone that there are multiple factors that influence this - and right now the biggest is the lack of spare cash many folk have. You could just as easily judge it on the numbers who go to say more than 5 games or more a season, or 10 games or more a season - and we would probably be looking at a figure closer to 40k than 30 on those criteria (if our database is anything to go by).... The billion dollar question is how you get those who go to 5 games a season to go to 10, or those who go to 10 to go to 15 or buy an ST. That is where price sensitivity, quality of product, success come into the picture - I would maintain the single biggest factor is the cost. I have feck all idea if NC and the powers that be would ever consider a model that broadens the price and thus increases access to a broader demographic on a more consistent basis - we dont nee dto do this right now as 29-30k at the current price is obviously sufficient for the budget, but when considering expansion, you have more options... the Fry/Turks one in which you wait for demand to far outstrip supply and then use that as a basis for investmnet, or one in which you generate extra demand through increasong affordability - both are valid approaches...and that is all I have ever been posting about

Question - do we not sell the ones we have becaise there is no interest or because the majority of those left overs are too expensive (in an economic climate where corporates are simply not shifting either)?

No. 'slashing' prices is ridiculous and is used to describe discounting against an original much higher price.... as you well know not what the Bayern model is about. If you dont understand the concept (which is quite simple), not my problem... but you understand it very well, but seem pleased to waste time misinforming others as to what it is, in an effort to pick holes where there are none... for the record, you dont start with a ticket price, you start with target net reveune (including cost of build) that is ABOVE that which we have now... it really is not that difficult to grasp so not sure what your problem is. Whether the will ever consider it is another matter, I dont knwo what their plans are, but thsi discussion started as one about whether there was ever justification for investing earlier than waiting for year on year sell outs - you dont think so, others believe a bviable business model exists to do so...

That most exceptional exact number that will be just high enough for those with a positive mindset to say its great, and yet as its not a sell out provide ammunition to those who a) want to suggest its it the clubs (Cortese) fault and to bring up ...again...and again... the point that this means anyone who has ever said expansion earlier than 5 years of sell out is mental and an embarrassment to the club.... so I guess around 28k

I agree with the reasons why... but its also about responsibilty, which too often is ignored... if you understand the implications of sex and consider yourself mature and repsonible enough to have it, surely that imploies you need to take responsibilty for the consequences? I was not supporting the idea of sterilization - far from it, but there are far too many abortions performed as a lifestyle choice or as a final 'contraceptive' strategy IMHO. These are unnecessary given the availabilty of contraception...education...social support....

In alternative universe..... ''I am surprised by how High the attendances are, given the current economic climate and the cost of watching football - the take up of corporate seats is especially poor but not unsurprizing given that businesses will cut back on this first in suchh economic situations. I can only assume Cortese is fully aware of the impact teh current cimate has, and will be monitoring attendances at the current price points - especially as we would expect that as the team will eventually improve, so will demand. If I were the Liebherrs I would understand that teh impact of any quarals with past figures is unlikely to be significant and although not ideal, they began pis sing in before Cortese began pi ssing out. The clubs 'history' can often be a millstone that prevents progress, and it is expected that many find change uncomfortable especially fans who are creatures of habit or in a few cases always have an axe to grind...''

...know what you are trying to say, but you could argue that if they are intelligent enough to recognise that another child would be impossible to manage, they shoudl be intelligent enough to seek out proper advice on contraception?

Closer but no cigar... the model I was advocating was closer to those used by the likes of Bayern etc - so you are right on that front. And I am happy to acknowledge that at this time offsetting against more expensive seats would not work - these premium priced seats tend to be the domain of the corporate 'fan' and in these economic times they are simply not there... that does not mean however that there would not be greater demand for tickets at the cheaper end of the scale, especially in these times where many ho currently pick an chose due to a finite budget would go more regularly if more affordable. I dont believe such a model is as unworkable as some like Turks and Fry suggest - afterall it works at other clubs - and I also believe that with the right balance the model could ensure an INCREASE in net revenue from the gate even factoring in commercial rate interest to fund such a project. The fact that this is hyperthetical and was a discussion based on pros and cons of watch and wait v earlier start seems to have been lost on those more concerned that it might make us look 'silly' or it was embarrassing to have such a discussion which is frankly pretty pathetic.

Total bollo x. I was, and still am happy to make a business case for why expansion can help in attracting greater support - that was what you and the Fry failed to see - there are rational reasons for waiting, and possible rational reasons for not, which you did not accept. You seem to have a habit of tisting posts to suit you constant dredging - and its that constant repeated need to find a way to ridicule others that I am saying is immature - and it is. You can go on....yawn.. about droning styles till the ****ing cows come home, does not add any weight to your argument, nor does it validate your constant **** taking style... Your last sentance is a classic example of how you completly fail to grasp the fundementals of a concept and twist/make up stuff to suit your point of view... fricken joke

Very difficult question really - I dont really have the answer. Most parents of Downs babies that go full term with pre knowledge, or without will tell you their children are loving and amazing kids. The problem I have with abortion due to detected genetic abnormalities is that in theory, where does it stop? Higher risk of cancer? With new biomarkers for these things being discovered all the time as well as the genes that increase risk etc... I guess ultimately, it should be about the quality of life teh child will have, rather than that of the parents IMHO, but it is a difficult one. I think we do need to very careful and differentiate clearly between abortion that is in effect a 'lifestyle' decision, and one in which there are strong medical reasons to either the health of the baby or mother (these cases areusually thsoe where the parents are pretty devastated in hearing news that there are problems etc). As a solution to unplanned or unwanted pregnancy, is where the debate is probably most fierce - and one in which I feel more should be done to a) educate kids better that the rate of unwanted pregancy comes down considerably b) combat the attitude that its somehow a negative thing - an inconvenience that can be put right by abortion. Remember, the reason so many young women originally went down this route in secret, illegally, dangerously and at great risk to tehir own lives in some cases, was not beacsue it was the 'wrong time' or an inconvenience but because of cultural 'shame' of unmarried mothers - thankfully that archaic attitude is gone form most western societies, yet seems to have been replaced by a slightly more selfish attitude, that its the wrong 'time' or will mess with my career type stuff. I just think Abortions are too freely available for those reasons. Maybe its simply because I am a parent - as you get older you realise that all the other guff like career, travel, money is pretty insignificant as part of life - the kids make it all worth while and give you a far better perspective on what really matters in life - I became a lot less selfish and a better person for it... the perfect time for kids is when they arrive!

Difficult issue that - is downs a reason to abort? This should never be a black and white issue - yes it should be legal, but the cut off point needs to be brought down IMHO.... But the question I always had was what is it with the 'need' for one in the first place? Why is there this oft spouted ****** that it will 'ruin' someones life to have a child at the 'wrong' time... just seems a bit of an odd thing that we seem to accept that within our society as a valid reason ... yes it changes thing, as any parent will tell you, but it doe not stop you 'having a life' or doing the things you always wanted, you just have to adapt and maybe take your time over it... ... and te fact that we still have the highest level of teenage abortion within the EU is disgusting - I cant believ that our teenagers ae that much more stupid on teh whole, so it must be our crap sex education

Nope...merely adding some perspective - Corteses biggest failing by far IS his lack of attention to those making these 'decisions' - because it gives ammunition to those who simply cant wait to point it out - those who seem to greet these things with some sort of relish - some might just argue that the reason we have progressed so rapidly the last few years is because his focus is on the bigger picture... equally as speculative as those who seem to believe he 'ignores our fans or history' and like to point that out every five minutes....

.... and the even sadder need for Turkish to rake it up on a fortnightly basis is somehow a mature and valuable addition to the debate? ... also you did not have to endure 'anything' FFS - the club issues an aspirational vision of what they might do in future and a discussion is had about how soon it might happen and what the pros and cons/possibilties might be to justify waiting v earlier - nothing exactly controvercial or abnormal about it - until you and Turks turn up being so worried that others might be laughing at us and its 'embarrassing to discuss it, in your usual patronzing miserable way that contributes nothing to any discussion apart of irritating the feck out of people - must be pretty sad to have that as your raison d'etre for posting on here....

Old Apppy hey... it would be funny...no seriously it would if it was not so pathetic. Its why so many of teh skates believe in their victim status, because this clown in a tracksuit believes it to... I see those faster at the keyboard than me have already pointed out the obvious, that a typical well run L1 club, keeping a stringent eye on books, forego the idea of unfairly gaining a competitve advantage and dont sign internationals... on whatever wages they may be on on either short or long term contracts... but when did this sort of logc ever resonate with those down the M27? Now all clubs have fans that are maybe challenged a little in the brain department, and finance can be a complex business in football, but down the road, if their web warriors are truely representative of the local neuron count, living there must be akin to that film... cant remmeber the name but where the guy wakes up and everyone is thick as ****... They dont even realise that the Liebherrs were not 'bankrolling us' in the first place - they bought us and subequently also provided the extra investment for promotion that Markus had merely put aside - nor do they appreciate that teh most likely reason for why the 33 mil was only converted to equity last year, is because Markus' money was going through probate... but never mind...now they clutch at straws that we are getting into debt... is it really that difficult for tehm to grasp the quite obvious differences... But back to Appy, he is good for laugh... fits right in, as they say in the country of the blind, the one eyed man is king.. or in the country of the stupid the man who has two brain cells .... Do you think they could raise a few quid by selling the TV rights for when Appy has his 'day' with the FL?, Does he believe his rantings wil endear him to the folk that matter? Not the fans by the way, but the FL? Appy mate, a word of advice -keep your gob shut and stop whinging - my 7 year old daughter used to cry everytime she could not have what she wanted - but has grown out of that now, realizing it gets you nothing but annoying those you are trying to influence... As has been said by someone on every page almost since the start of this thread... the biggest laugh comes form their constant wanting it both ways... its all the owners fault...bt we wont admit it gave us a trophy.... the biggest annnoyance from their belief they have some right to be more competitive than others who live within their means (truely shows the ignorance and stupidity of Appy and his fans), the biggest tragedy that whatever happens, 100mil of debt will be written off... and tehy will carry on as before, believing they are above the rules...

Problem is two fold - on the one hand we have alleged victims who understandably ony feel comfortable comming forward after he died - If true these crimes do leave psychological scars - and its not surprizing at all that victims wait so long to come forward, especially if teh abuse happen during a time in which they would never have been taken seriously... ... but there is also Bletchs point that he is no longer around to respond to the accusations. Yes it does look increasingly likely that he was guilty, but we still have a system of justice that is base don being abl eto answer your accusers rightly or wrongly.... and we cant let the fact that he was starnge and wierd influence this.

Were their using someone elses plant? JCB or something rather than the obvious? I think we should be told:scared:

Thats the whole point though - you dont even need to mention Cortese in this context - its implied when folk say 'the club' - or those that seek to link the two do so automatically ... for what purpose? - read these pages and you can not deny you dont know exactly what I mean - you are smart enough for that. Saying its HRs fault is irrelevent, and will be lost under the the screeching sound of grinding axes... Yes, everyone deserves courtesy - and they should have had 5 mins to be told face to face - but does it make any difference, really? I have been made redundent twice in my lifetime, and in both cases was sat down by nice HR folk - did it make me feel any better that they took that time? did it feck same outcome, same bull****... and that was froma fulltime job after 8 years 'loyal' service - so hardly think being relieved of a 60min casual role every fortnight is going to be such a big deal...

If they had been full time employees 40 hours + a week, I would agree, but 60 minutes a fortnight and a decent letter, well not sure where you are going with this - big difference, and you are employing the old journalist trick of selecting the best example and using words to make your point sound so much worse... 20 years loyal service.... er doubt many will have been doing it for 20 years +, and secondly that comment makes it sound like they were full time... rather than 60 mins a fortnight Secondly, the word 'sack' is emotive suggesting poverty and hardship to follow - when for most it was a hobby and a way of getting a free ticket Finally, why do folk assume its Cortese? Do they think he spends his time on these things? Jeez...

Casual staff? A well written letter, thanking them for their loyalty and committment? NOt really sure how else this should have been done... all personnally invited into Corteses office for tea and cakes? Come on, its no fricken wonder there are accustaions of 'agendas' flying around when every issue is blown up to such proportions by the same characters - I am not surprized though... seem to recall saying the 'goodwill' factor after Markus bought the club would not last 5 seconds as there are always those who have an 'issue' with something - at most clubs its the shiedt on the pitch, but we aint been able to complain about that the last few years... Jeez, what the flying feck do people really expect - perfection? and whose idea of perfection are we talking about anyway? I suspect if asked we would get 32000 variations.... Yes there are several SMALL things that we can point to and say in an ideal world would have been handled differently - no argument there - but set against hat has been achieved... they are trivial, and if given a choice of the most fan friendly chairman or one that gets results on the pitch, I know whch one I'd chose - expecting that you can have and deserve both is naive IMHO, such folk are a rare breed.

Like you say with the life means life issue, you cant really use the argument for capital punishment because they recommit murder, if the same government has let them out early in the first place - It's right that tarifs are set as punishmnet and they should be stuck to, but its also right that people DO do things in their lives that they later regret and learn from - especially when young - so there has to be some flexibilty, but for those 'ill' in the head that do these eappalling crimes against children life should mean life - its not a 'phase'...