Frank's cousin

The point is no one can predict accurately what our potential is - as with all clubs, interset and attendance rises and falls with a combination of level of success, division, quality of enetertainment, signings, cost/price of tickets, economic times, satisfaction with the clubs directors/manager/players etc... loads of variables - for us toi try and guage what the max is is anyones guess - 35k? 40k? Yes we seem to have 50k+ who went to wembley and could have sold 60K+ for Cardiff back in 2003, but many of these are folk who go for teh occasion - the question is how many of those 'extra' fans would be converted to 10 games a season + if we were top 8 regularly and in Europe - I remmeber the unofficial record in the friendly against Bayern - a £10 entry and squeezing them .... so how do you figure out what we could attract? Just seems logical to speculate that especially in current climate, cost is keeping a fair few away.

Turks - you are likely a midgey/mosquito bite - you know you shouldn't scratch it as it will only make teh irritation worse, but you cant help it... You are right teh principle is teh same, but this is a case where the volume being so different makes the situation more manageable, and more likely that we will be able to get to a point where we are self sustainable in future - we are not a chelsea or City with a wage bill inexcess of sky income + normal revenue, but are probably for the next couple of seasons still reliant on a small supplement form the Liebherr estate, as opposed to an annual right off in excess of 100mil or so.... but whilst Andy keeps digging, you seem determine dto keep giveing him a larger spade... there does come a time though...

... if its stays like this ... what odds on Swindon away in next round...

NOt really, a couple of games, to see if it would work, think always intended to play through the centre, but right now we cant drop Lambo ... nice situation to be in and JRod is young and his time will come.

Ahr te lucky crap has reappeared again has it?

Agreed. The law of averages states that at least 2 or 3 adults at SMS on saturday have children currently in hospital with either a haematological malignancy or a solid tumour - are they any less important or deserving? There is nothing wrong with Villa fans showing their appreciation for their player, but they are seriously strange if they believe it should somehow be mandatory that everyone joins in... and dont get me started on praying....

I do believe he could, but unlikely - unltimately, he will have vto pay teh football creditors the 8mil form the parachutes - but at league 1 levels him injecting as littles 2 mil would make them competitive again - and it 'appears' his intention is to invest a little, get back in the Campionshoip and then sell lock stock and barrel - but at what value? might be worth 5 or 6 mill to teh right mug, but given the lack of any infrastructure of note, teh 5mil debt to chinney, not sure its worth it... I still have this suspicion that he may cal it a day just after he has pocketed the parachutes, put them back in admin and walk away if that is legal.... ?

I think though teh diffrence is that this is a finite plan and will be limited to the value of the club - rathaer than teh Man City/Chelsea route which has so far been about 'whatever it costs' - but in theory 'fair play rukle' should reign that in - although teh big clubs will find a way to get around that probably...

Andy, I think you may need to be careful with the figures - the way Sky income is calculated, it depends on many things including finishing position - IMHO the good news is that teh Liebherr estate appear to be following Markus's wishes and providing ..so far.. the necessary additinal cash we need to REACH a self sustaining model in teh future - a point at which tehir TOTAL investment/injection, will probably be equal to what the club is worth. Where the whoe thing becomes more difficult is that we may need to 'stretch things' a little these first couple of prem seasons in order to ensure we stay up - but given the value of our younger players, relegation would at least not be mare financially, but it would potentially set back the project several years. We simply can not get to a point where we ae competitive with home grown talent without substantial additional cash from ML's estate - the figures dont add up in my head

I do not believe we are currenmtly self sufficient - but then dont have an accurate idea of how big the Prem revenue is likely to be this year - or our cost base. That said I also dont belive that any subsidy from the 'provision' pot will be classified eventually as 'debt' but as equity... I hope

If we go back to when Markus and NC took over they stated the AIM was to be self sustaning in the prem. They also stated that 'provision' had been made to get us to that point - eg MOney set aside to be injected as (equity conversion?) into teh club to faciliate the promotions necessary and to get us to teh point where our academy + some annual additions meant we were competitive in the top tier within our revenue stream. We do not know a) what level of 'provision' was set aside (although to date its clear some 33mil has been invested INCLUDING the original 'purchase fee of around 13mil), b) over how many years that 'provision' is being spread - baring in mind the time it will take to get 50% of 1st team as academy graduates... c) how much of it is left! My GUESS is that there are funds Markus set aside to ensure that we had an academy with the potential to produce a conveyor belt of talent (nothing is guarranteed) and with teh understadning that it would take several years at least, and funds to ensure we could buy in young talent ready for first team, to ensure we make a reasonable start to the project - I suspect taht one of the reasons we spent 20mil over the last two seaons (gross and before the OXO money was factored in) was that it became clear we could reach the pre in 3 years not 5 so the investment level was probably higher in these years for a lower leagues than we would have anticipated? Turkish is right in that in principle having an owner who is, undrwriting teh annual budget whether to 10mil or 70 mil is the same - and Its also clear Abramovic is thinknig about reducing hjis annual ;'subsidy' - But I think the difference is in our case - and this is speculation- is that we have a finite amount set aside by ML at the start of the project and reconfirmed by the family on his passing (which was hinted at by NCs comment that should the family feel they diod not want to continue with their late father;'s plans, he new invester willing to step in). By the time that cash is spent, we must be self sustaining. So the theory is that we will eventually get there, and that any/all subsidies are in effect equity convertable amounts - possibly a total in line with what the club would be worth when we get there (possibly 80-90 mil as a top 10 prem club, with all infrastructure in place and young talent squad and academy) That's just my guess mind, but dont think its far from the truth.

How about this then? Eastenders finest 'musical' supergroup?

Bearsy - you need to recall that in them olden days, skinny ladies were considered 'poor' and that a more rotund and fuller lady would suggest better nourishment and of better 'stock' - and as the old saying goes .... The image of 'ripe fruit' that we we are now conditioned to accept is merely due to thosee maagzines telling us what a perfect form should be like - In this case the pear does indeed look juicy and appettising, firm and ripe.

Well I'd probably take Van Persie, but no one else

Indeed, this is well known... and talking of ancient Rome, I admire 'Glad-he'ate-her' but such classics are not allowed in our house.. and the first series of Spartacus had that nice lady from Hustle in it, which was wonderfully cultural and intellectually satisfying. I am glad our History programs have become so entertaining.

Fair enough, you have finally argiued your case/point in a balnaced and reasoned way - not sure why you did not before - I actually agree with some of your points, with one exception, where you state I am for 'slashing prices' - this is not what I have been suggesting in teh context you mention. I agree with what you say about ensuring the brand etc. Also I have neer suggested that Cortese would ever adopt the broader price concept I have been suggesting, merely using it as a point to illustrate how expansion could help generate demand and acess to a broader demographic by allowing for say a financial model to be applied such as many German clubs - whilst ensureing that overall revenue is increasedto more than cover the investment needs. Whether NC ever adopts such an approach was not part of the argument, rather an example of how a business case can be made for earlier development than some are suggesting. I appreciate, as Kracken also pointed out that there is no eveidence to suggest NC would contemplate such a model as he never reduced pricing when we had cappacity to spare in L1 or the NPC, nor the recent friendlies. I also understand why, bith in terms as you suggust of the brand value maintenance, but also because we had no need to. However, I believe NC is pretty sharp and will look at many models, brand value, and consider/evaluate all possibilties before they make any decsions. You may be right and there is no desire to offer a broader price range, or they mey look at the Bayern model and agree it might be feasible - All I have been trying to convey is that you can make a good business case for an earlier development if you explore how other clubs have gone about this and the impact on attendance alternative models have had on attendance - and no one would argue the Bayern brand has been erroded by the the 8000 odd 180 Euro STs? OK so those prices are offset by other STs at 1500 euros and the local wealth means there is demand at that price point, but I dont believe the principle is not worth evaluating? I guess the reason why I am also quite positive about this is that if we chose to believe NC, that this is a long term project, a genuine desire to be more comptetive at the higher end of the league (whatever our belief about how realistic that aim may be), then the infrastructure development will be very much part of such a plan, and would that be derailed by a bad first season in the prem, or lower than anticipated attendances in no small part contributed to by the current economic climate? Finally, it is also about Dreams and aspiration, and I like many do get the rush of blood to the head when we hear the bold statement of development and top 6 targets... its what being a fan is sometimes about, the suspension of realism that goives us a boost etc - and then NC does things that suddenly make it look like there is a cahnce its not just all hot air - 12mil+ on ramirez, 30mil in the transfer window... etc - yes its still a work in progress, defensively for sure, but in 3 years - bottom of L1 to spending 30mil + in the prem in one window - whatever we think about the signings, that is some committment and progress, beyond what anyof us woul;d have imagined on the day Markus took over - so its no surprize that some of us believe the next steps are likely to happen at an equally agressive pace? Anyway, appreciate your post and POV. Dont mind disaggreeing with you or others, but we should be able to remain civil with it.

Love his skill, his committment, and obvious talent - but most of all his attitude - unassuming, down to earth and you can see the real joy he has in playing and what he has achieved the hard way. An example to all young players that you keep working, keep trying and eventually good things will happen. When I see 16 year old kids at top clubs, with Diamond studs, flash cars, its no wonder many of them dont break through - things have come too easy for them. Maybe if his name was Ricardo Lambertolli - his age/history in the lower leagues would not have had so many suggesting he would not cut it...?

Advantage of norks and **** though...

Brilliant stuff - a modern, slightly more 'aggressive' Yes Minister' - although that did have some brilliantly astute observations

And one for thos ethat like the 'older' ladies - perfect for Dune an his Maggie fantasy

You mean like... In this one you can see the female Ferney fan version of Turkish with teh silly hat

Read Tom Bower's book, he gets more than one chapter just like Redknapp:scared:

The reason why I think it is daft to wait to 'begin' the process is that it will take at least 5-6 years form start to opening - 8-9 if we wait for 3 years etc. I guess the difficulty seems to be that its pretty much impossible to look at past attendance or even current ones, when the cimate and other variable swill see up and down shifts etc during that time... therefore is there a case to made for being bullish? Assuming we can stay up and progress in the direction NC wants us to, and look at the the pricing models in other countries and how they have been very effective in seeing major attendance increases, especially in the Bundesliga where the stadium upgrades and new increased capacity stadia post WC2006 saw ,major increases in attendance? Price senitivity is such a key and difficult business - and yes it needs to be reflective of increased costs etc, but this is why increased capacity is possibly a way to deal with vagaries of economic fluctuations?

Chinney: ' I will get my money, I am secured' Shoestring budget... take out what he can, take the parrachutes and then place in admin again before he has to pay the football creditors their 8 mil? Could this be done legally? Does he care? Will he be happy to leave them to be liquided by this time next year? Tune in next week folks for more exciting installment.... Seriously, the PST should now go for a pheonix and encourage all teh fans to follow - leave Chinney with the rusting hulk of Fraton park, empty and him and Appy can sit and moan together, leaving the genuine fans with a fresh start, and hope of a clean and more stable future.

Villa's Alps?