Frank's cousin

Nice mature response.

I have never said they 'brought it on themselves' anywhere - and to suggest that you are misinterpreting what I have been trying to get across. Nor have I said that all the measures and controls put in pace were the RIGHT measures and controls with regard controlling football crowds within stadia - merely that those measures were in place rightly or wrongly because of fan behaviour over at least a decade. You consider this a minor point and you are entitled to your opinion. But if the purpose of these discussions is to understand ALL that contributed to this tragedy then I dont understand how these elements being pointed out are callous or crass - this is a saints board discussing the developments today following a release of a report, many years after that sad event, so not sure why that is considered callous our crass... the reason that point is repeated is because I dont believe its a minor one and yet it is so often ignored or considered irrelevent - in part because fans are reluctant to look back at the behaviour of those times and consider it relevent.

That's not my intention, an am not quite sure why to come to that conclusion. Today was about truth - and in some respects that these facts have finally been revealed one hopes goes some way to giving the families some peace, although it will never replace the tragic loss of life. But I cant pretend to be emotionally involved - Whilst I have every sympathy for the victims and their families, and can understand the impact and grief they have suffered as well as admire their search for the truth, I cant pretend I know how it feels or felt. That's not being uncaring or self satisfied. It might be a 'small point' - but I dont believe its an insignificant one if the whole purpose of today is about truth - then it remains important to consider every aspect no matter how small an impact you believe it to have had. If you consider what happened afterwards as the Taylor report recommendations were implemented - - with respect to safety and the removal of the pens and caging, it suggests that this factor was significant. The police were to blame, the fans suffered a smear campaign that is understood and at last that truth is out there. But I dont see why the simple fact that fan behaviour in the 70s and 80s directly led to that environment where those police errors would ultimately lead to the tragedy is in any way wrong to include. BUT there is simply NO justification or excuse for why the police then covered this up and smeared the fans - and yes I like many believed a lot of what was filtered through the media - that opinion has changed as more of the facts came out.

er... no this thread identifies those with different opinions based on different levels of knowledge surely? Its clear from teh evidence that a) there was a cover up - the police made huge errors that caused the tragedy and then tried to pretend it was the fans at fault b) The Sun seemed happy to tow the tory party line and agree to the smear c) The ground was not fit for purpose - I say to all thso ewho constantly whinge about 'elf and safety' - its political correctness gone mad brigade - that those 96 would not have died as a result of modern H+S standards d) Pens and fences were in place as a result of fans previous behaviour - a decade + of hoolis that still seem to engender some sort of misty eyed nostalgia in some (bizarrely) - had they not been there, the deaths would not have occurred e) ...perhaps the most controvercial is that people do always have a choice - yes I acknowledge that crowds do behave in a unique way, but when you see a big crowd/queue there is a need for common sense surely?

Was not necessarily talking about on that day Kracken - but the reason in general for why those pens/steel fences existed... the fact remains that had they not been there, no matter how incompentant and naive the ploice were, the deaths would most likelly have been averted. Yes in a way its a sepearte issue, but given the impact that day had, and quite rightly the focus on the truth, cover up etc. Its important that this issue is not forgotten.

Is indeed a good read and no one is saying that the those who died were in anyway to blame, nor that it was caused by Hooligans etc. But the problem as I see it is that fans do need to think about why the conditions existed for such a tragedy to happen... the culture, environment and atmosphere were a result of the way fans had behaved, and although it can be argued that treating fans as annimals was not the solution, the cages etc were there as a consequence of fan behaviour. The druive for the truth is vital - the need for disclosure and removeal of the slurs on peoples names following made up reporting needs to be resolved.... but when it comes to blame, surely there is a need to accept that fans did play a part.

I dont disagree with that, but you are missing the point here. Whatever happened, however they behaved, whoever made the mistakes, whosever fault it is etc - we can probably eventually find all the answers etc on a purely practical point.... BUT the truth is that had tehose pens not existed, no cages, no fencing, there woudl probably have been injuries but not fatalities - They were only possible because of the 'peeceived need' for the pens, which were put in place because of fan behaviour at the time. All I am suggesting is that as fans we need to take responsibilty for that as it is a contributing factor.

Sorry but the tube analogy fails to differentiate between the behaviour of everyday commuters, and that of football fans whose behaviour had led to the creation the 'pens' and thus the potential for a crush in the first place - Commuters behaviour did not mean the need for the track and fast trains....that was a necessary danger, but fans actions did mean cages, pens etc... which until the early 70s had been unnecessary.

Well we will have to agree to differ, however 'reprehensible' you find it. I find it strange and perhaps a little sad that fans cant look at this objectively and acknowledge that part of the issue as a direct result of the need to 'control' a crowd in the first place. We are talking about football, a game, a sport - not some angry protest or revolutionary mob... but fans of a game. Yet a generation of 'fans' created an environment of fear, mistrust and suspision that meant police were necessary in the first place, and through naiviety and fear of what might happen, made errors of judgement that tradgic and fatal consequences. I am not suggesting that Liverpool fans were any different to anyone else on that day, but that fans collectively need to acknowledge that we are not blameless in creating that environment... on even simpler terms, had there been no need for cages, 'pens' this would not have happened - yet they existed for the reason I allude to above. In the 1920s, when far to many entered Wembley for a cup final with the famours white horse on the pitch, the fans simply spilled onto the pitch... and yet as a collective fans were responsible for the behaviour in the 70s that meant we were herded like animals - because ultimately some behaved like them. Its this element I have an issue with. All the reasons for the tragedy on the day are probably now accepted and the final publication of Goivcernment minutes will hopefully mean that everything is in the public domain once and for all - but we simply must not ignore the impact of fan behaviour (in general, not specifically Liverpool fans on that day) at that time on creating an environment where such actions and mistakes would have such tragic consequences - and its that what I mean about our personal responsibilty, aside from any individual decisons on the day.

Confident ... well hardly a surprise given taht he has told them all it either sign for us or be out of a job till after Christmas - sant wont be coming for your kids - interestingly he fails to mention that the FA/FL rule would not stand up in court, if anyone pushed the point as it would be in direct conflict with the right to work directives... dim as feck

True but what ever the truth , it is still feckin hilarious whichever way!

To some extent I agree and on a purely practical measure, you make a vaild point, but why does common sense go out the window? Why do turnstiles open 90 minutes before kick off? because it is simple logic that you cant get 1000s of folk into a ground in a controlled fashion in 5 minutes - If you want to turn up 15 mins before the game, then you would expect there to be a queque and a crowd, so why not wait patiently? Its the expectation that someone else is responsible all the time that fecks me off.

... but why does this disolve any individual responsibilty or common sense amongst the fans? Police stupity yes, police incompetence, yes.. but why does any situation like this always look to find a single person or group to blame, when as individuals we have have responsibilty for behaving appropriately in these situations? If fans take a 'logical' decision, you dont push, run when there is a huge crowd of people on stairs/terraces? Yes, soem will argue that this is a classic case of crowd behaviour and thats is why you need police and stewards to direct and control, and I am sure someone can explain it away as crowd psychology etc, but to often individuals make teh wrong choices in these situations and dont take responsibilty for their own actions.

...fair enough... but this does not answer why there was ever a need to 'herd' fans or 'control' crowds in the first place? IMHO, all fans of that era, who were involved in incidents that created that atmosphere need to look at themselves as well, and as difficult as it may be, acknowledge that their actions contributed to the shift from a simple spectator sport, to one in which the police were necessary beyond watching out crime...

This does not explain how that stand was overcrowed beyond the official capacity - and we were talking about controlled entry and patience of the crowd, who should have recognised that entry was going to be slow with so many turning up at once... This was not unique to Liverpool fans - at the time, the whole atmosphere around football crowds was one of suspicion and fear of confrontation... which ill have contributed to panic and wrong decsion making. Victims families, quite rightly deseerve the TRUTH, to understand the full failings of the sysytem etc that caused this tragedy. But although it may categorically conclude that teh police were the cause, you still have to ask yourself a simple question... why and how did it become necessary/a crowd 'problem' in the first place , when we are talking about fans arriving at a sporting venue to see football... not just on that tragic day but at every game? Because football had become synonomous with bad crowd behaviour and thsoe fans were simply not prepared to wait in line and miss part of the game - ask yourself what you do... you arrive at your turnstile ad its very busy? to you hang back and wait, or do you join teh mass ranks and push etc? and then expect the police and stewards to sort it out? This was a tragedy and one caused by the police action on the day. No one is disputiung that. BUT ultimately if anything is to be learned we have to be prepared to acknowledge that fan behaviour , not just on that day, but during that whole sad pathetic era, created an atmosphere and environment in which a police prescence, 'crowd control' etc was necessary in the first place and that is something too many fans still feel uncomfortable in acknowledging... it is a game we pay to watch, yet some still feel that the 'tribalism' (only really an issue form the 70s onwards so hardly part of football 'tradition') somehow excuses football fans from normal civilized beehaviour. The fact reamins that this tragedy would not have happened if the police were not needed or 'control' were not needed in the first place.

Hopefully... the biggest and saddest aspect was always that those stuck at the front of those cages, that died, were truely innocent - wrong place, wrong time... its clear the failure of the police to control the crowd and the errors they made with the gates and in flow of fans was the cause and yes as the vicims families have always said, the police do need to be accountable for that... but as controvercial as it may seem, will the fans that charged in, that decided not top be patient and wait for a calmer entry even if it meant missing 15 mins of the match also take some of the responsibilty? - The crowd should have been controlled outside the ground, tickets checked and then let in an orderly fashion... but ultimately, we should not ignore the questiuons that crowd control should really not be necessary to that extent at what is a sporting occasion?

The rankings tend to be research biassed and thus favour where the money is, thus teh US top few still have the advanatge on that score - from a pursuit of academic and teaching excellence, you cant really distinguish between the top 20 in the world as all will provide and exceptional level of teaching - just that if you want to go get tha PhD etc and post doc research... go where the funding is.

He's 21 - a player of huge potential and teh fact that we as a club have made such an investment speaks volumes about where NC is looking to take us. As with many players form foreign leagues, he may well take several months to adapt, especially for a younger player who has still to find the consistency that comes with experience. If he develops as expected, then after a couple of seasons we could have a 30mil player on our books - so although there is an element of risk, its clear this has not been done without one eye on the future business. I dont believe this purchase had any impact on who else we were trying to get, just that some work and some dont.

Them's underpants Munster - which given that the latest pompey takeover rumours are also likely to be a bunch of a rse, was quite clever

True its a bit of balls up, but to be fair, you cant really test a system like this without a full sell out of genuine punters - the fault in this case lies surely with those software developers or thos ewho customised it for SMS - I suspect the club is as pished off as fans are...

Tis indeed a mystery that one single town can contain so much idiocy - they really are a bunch of thick as shieidt numpties if they cant get the whole competitive' issue... no longer funny really, just makes me fricken angry now, as there are many more numptoes out there who also believe this and have sympathy.. what the feck is wrong with this country that there is this 'dumbing down' of Britain? A nation of under educated f uckwits that cant grasp such simple principles?

CB FRy, so NC is just the CEO and we shouldn'y give a shiedt?... well that was not the attitude when Lowe was just exec chair? is it that the difference is that things off the pitch are pretty good so we dont need to give a shiedt about the chairman? Whatever the real issue between Cortese and Matt, the fact reamins only one of them is constantly airing it in public - and whilst he does that he is being a pratt... Unfortunately like most footballers he is is obviously either a bit dim or ill advised, if he wants any chance of sorting that out, the first thing is to keep is trap shut in the media... no one likes that opinion because its Matt and what he gave us, but if you and the rest say that no one is above criticism (as is mentione dwhenever someone defends NC) then that applies to Matt as well...

Who's nicke dteh brackets - would always have been tought to include them in these sorts of sums, then it becomes easy...

Especially if we all adhered to teh the one that sates ' thou shalt not worship false gods' - which is kinda all of them

Agreed, but such a statement need to come with the caveat that we are talking about religions, not individuals - and thats where it gets tricky - as soon as you start banning religious iconography, clothing, jewellary etc, the repsonse is that it is the indviduals 'rights' are effected, and despite my 'faith' being that that they are all gullable fairy story believers, I guess we need to find ways within the law that does protect those rights to be gullable, and prevents discrimination by stealth - especially where working conditions do not require a stricter H+S policy - the things is, some might argue that the wearing of crosses etc in the work place is offensive to us atheists - but I am actually all for anything like crosses and car fish stickers to help me identify them and avoid them like the plague