Frank's cousin

Dune as any of the Nazi propaganda officers Charlie ayman as the commentator?

Come on you lot... not sure it warrants a a major Alps bash sesh and VFTT the kid comment is probably best edited out maybe? - so Alps reponds 'emotionally' and rapidly - we all do it at times, and perhaps its not such a bad thing to use an anonymous web site to vent your spleen, better place than at home with those that really matter....and lets be really honest for a moment, how many of us have been so overwhelmingly surprized at not only how brilliantly well the athletes have done, but also that the organization and atmosphere has been so amazing? Have to admit I thought given our history of cock ups whenever Government becomes involved in sport, (WC bids 2006, 2018, 2022 etc) that we were in for a shambles? I know I was worried we might not put our best foot foward to the global audience and I bet Alps is as fricken proud and chuffed at how amazing its been as I am and all the more pleased for his concerns and pessimism being so unfounded - as am I.

Kracken, I am sure you know exactly what I mean and who I am talking about - unless you dont actually read alot the threads that is.

Thankfullly the majority of fans (not necessarily the majority of posters on here which is a bit of an 'odd' sample) will appreciate that the step up will mean getting used to fighting for every point and being happy with one away at the likes of Wigan. There are many for whom NCs 'vision' is a naive exercise in 'dreaming the impossible', for others a 'statement of intent', but suspect the majority are just glad we have a chairman who is prepared to make statement of aspiration, even if the road to such heights will be littered with dissapointments along the way. We are on the cusp of a prem season, for the first time in 7 years - we have shown faith in thsoe that got us there and added a few young players with potential - we are experimenting with formations and ideal roles - and we were happy to run against better quality rather than stick 4 past a non league in effort to boost confidence but nothing else. For me we should be excited, nervous but in a positive way and looking forward to it. If we find we are not good enough, so be it, we try again, and again, and again -until we get it right (and as long as the funding is in place to support it), but we dont throw the towel in - ever - or we might a swell do what so many others are happy to do and support who ever is at the top - to avoid disspointment, if we cant handle it.

No rant, just an observation based on the repetitive stance of those at the extremes of both sides of what one or two results mean

...beaten by CL side of qaulity players - shock horror! ... Oh no, it exposes our aspirations as rubbish? Well, we have a long term aim to be able to compete at that level - did anyone expect that yesterday? really? Or was this a good measure of where we are and how long/far that journey is going to be? Surely the whole reason we enjoy football and comeback time and again is that a club ahs ambition and you enjoy the journey? we will get exposed and beaten on many an occasion - what is more importamt is the experience and learnings we get from it and what this adds to our play. I dont think its a case of bed wetters v doom and gloom merchants (although this board seems 'dominated' by both extremes) but more a case of those that expect it NOW! v those that think the clubs aspiration is naive and impossible. Having said that, IMHO the only thing that is impossible is to accurately predict how long it will be to realise the aspirations - whether some have the stomach for the inevitable ups and downs along the way is more easy to predict, as there are those for whom failure seems desirable to satisfy their 'I told you so' ego/or at extremes stick the knife in to those trying to build something. Mistakes ..big mistakes will be made by those at the club - decisions will go wrong - part of feckin life when you are learning and challenging yourselves and stretching your abilities, but either you TRY or throw in the towel and be satisfied with mediocrity - choice is yours I guess, but I reckon following a side that is determined to 'over achieve' is more fun than watching one happy will mediocrity or frightened of failure.

Think its the administrator.... creditors only get their agreed bit AFTER expenses have been taken off.. the best bit in all this is after Birch has spent 'so much time and effort' trying to get players to compromise and no doubt fed teh media enough to ensure they stick the knife in as well, we will now see how he likes it when asked to compromise.. will he stick or fold? I love the game, but have been fricken angry at the way the giverning bodies and leagues have ignored the way clubs have behaved and the idiocy of certainb fans in denying and not accepting that they cant enjoy and claim tehir success if its built on cheating.... but this whole saga with the twofaced caniving peresonalities is quite frankly funy as f u * k

.. is there really any moral/ethical difference between a so called illegal tapping up, eg a representative form Club A secretly meeting with a player of club B.... before Club B give permission, and the manager/agents representing Club B leaking their interest in a player to the media/press, so that the gossip, turns players heads? IMHO there is none, and Mr Holloway should the very least STFU - unless he enjoys teh hypocritical nature of these things - (check out gossip on BBC page) - everyone does it - I dont like it, but its seems to be the way ....

... not having ever lived in Southampton, I guess the local rivalry for me, was never more than sporting... Portsmouth were just another club who when played I wanted to beat, but nothing that was that much more than the normal extra spice that comes with a derby. I got to know several pompey fans who were decent guys, normal fans, passionate but realistic and who also had plenty of other normal things in their lives. In effect, I was indifferent to them. IF they had suddenly gone bankrupt in the old div 1 or 2, due to a criminal having raided the accounts, defrauded them etc, I would have totally acknowledged and agreed that the club should in no way be sanctioned - and I would have felt for the fans - afterall, under those circumstances one could rightly argue that they had never had any sporting or competitive advantage from such fraudulant activity. The reason for the last two admins is plain and simple - they entered contracts they could not afford to gain a competitive advantage, not once, but twice and failed to offload the liabilty twice when they had the chance to, in the vain belief that they had a right to be more competitive than the rest and that promotion back would cover the cost and justify th risk. Now who sanctioned this spending, which parent company went bust, who decided they did not have the money etc is irrelevent - the SANCTIONs and punishment are NOT designed to stop owners, dodgy or overwise making stupid decisions, the PL, FL can not control that and nor can the fans, no the sanctions and punishments are in direct response to the fact that by not paying bills footballing or otherwise for whatever reason, they have had a competitive advantage and unusally high levels of success - something which as the fans acknowledge no one can take away from them - they enjoyed that success - and enjoy it still to day, a chance denied to most clubs who try and keep things within their own precarious budgets... because they had owners willing to take financial risks whilst monies were still owed to others - that others simply were not. Players who signed in good faith, whatever we think of wages/greed in football is irrelevent, players who signed contracts and gave them some of that success they enjoyed were hounded and stigmatised by the very same fans and worse a 'jounalist' who should have known better, who only a few months ago were being commended for their loyalty at a time when a departure would have eased the financial woes, if not the sporting ones - again a failure to see the bigger picture either morally or ethically, with fans and media patting the high earners on the back as they helped out in the ticket office and kept alive a slim chance of survival... maintaining a Sporting advantage... Its the attitude of the ignorant , no ethics, no morals, no class. They now wish to compare their sad predicament to our own humble days - a rush of blood to the head of a couple of decent local fans made good that should never have been sanctioned, sowed the eventual seeds but for which we paid a price... .... and despite doing everthing financially we could to avoid it ... reducing expenditure on players and wages to a bare minimum and REDUCING our competitiveness. Indeed, it had been the refusal to spend beyond our income and mortage committments, run a strict wage policy etc, that meant that we went backwards in terms of competitiveness in the first place that led to prem relegation... we got lucky and were saved by a man whose reputation for ethical business was flawless, a decent honorable man, who at teh end of a business life saw an opportunity to see what he could build, who Luck played a part, certainly, but wise and prudent investment in the recent passed at the expence of a competitive advantage on the field, meant we had made our own luck and were an attactive proposition. But a man whose integrity could not be questioned, who had no hatred or ill will to our neighbours is slurred with accusations of links to war crimes, and sick jokes like the one above - the mark of desperate men Its the attitude of the ignorant , no ethics, no morals, no class. Now it looks like they will survive another day, saved by one of the very folk they say are to blame for their fall from grace - the irony is perfect - but lost on them. Hero status bestowed on the villain, juxtaposed to the villain status bestowed on those previous 'loyal heroes' - Its the attitude of the ignorant , no ethics, no morals, no class. If they truely were the 'Bestest' fans, they would not now be celebrating the successful write off of debts bigger than Rangers, they would be ashamed. Their trust would have committed to creditors first and playing success second - with a priority to reestablishing some integrity and pride - pride in doing the RIGHT thing, not in hoping for a quick promotion. Had they had that contrition, they would have my sympathy and wishes of luck and good grace... yet they talk of a further kick in balls to creditors, the tax man and charities... seems the pompey way... Its the attitude of the ignorant , no ethics, no morals, no class.

Think you hit the nail on the head - we were entertaining because we tried to paly and 'attacking style -creating many chances that as you say came form a combination of passing moves (some great) and some direct play using teh skill of Lambo who not only scored for fun, but created many. We were 'enetertaining'. Its this I dont want us to lose sight of... there is always a danger that sides try an up and at um disruptive style and or the chelski defensive thing when faced with superior oposition, but although this can be effective if you keep your concentration for 90mins, not sure we have the defensive quality to park the bus in that way - and these styles are just dull and unappealing, even if they grind you out a result. I know many will disagree, but sometimes its (naive?) nice to stick to your principles - its is about being entertained in my book, not survival at any cost.

I have just ruined my keyboard - fricken classic LOL moment - good one

Think in most reasoned heads we all know ythat it will be very tough and will ned some lick as well as some odd results to get to the 12-17 and that that would be a good first season back - something to build on. Its only our hearts that say we can really surprize in this league...afterall we were predicted mid table last year...blah blah... We have just got to enjoy it and see what happens. New signings take a while to gell, and we need a ensure we dont get intimidated, and just play OUR game - aim high and dont get sucked into to the idea that medicocrity or pluckiness is OK. We will not win more games than w elose... but we should REALLY strive to.

This is a good point - I am surprized that FL, consider deffered wage agreements in the spirit' of having satisfied their rules on 'paying off all footballing creditors in FULL' for them to get the golden share - Whilst as I understand it, the PPs come the PL, and go to the club, so cant divert this, I cant see why the FL did not contractually obligate Portsmouth to hand over ALL PP cash until the footballing creditoes were paid in full.... see this is where all thsoe players who walked away seem dim... (unless this has been agred as part of their compromise agreements) ... why did they not get together and with the PFA stipulate deferred wages until the PPs arrive and they are paid in full, leaving perhaps 3 mil for the chinney bloke.... ...and now appy wants 4 mil for a squad (and the skates fans want more)... well can he please go live on record and explain how he can morally justify spending anything on transfers when there are creditors owed more than 100 million ? The fact they 'just dont get it' sounds like a stuck record. The fact that ANYONE has sympathy for that attitude is frankly worrying, teh fact that the media and 'football' old school, have sympathy, placing survival of the club ahead of the fact that they have in effect shafted creditors to massive amounts, and now deffered wages makes it even worse... Well, If Appy gets his 4.5 mil, (you could not make it up) they will be operating at a loss from the start (not including the deferred wages due which will be left as a toxic legacy for the next admin to deal with) - seriously, I suspect that we will all be able to reconvene before the year is out when we hear the next stories as 'pompey seek new investment' moving to 'pompey fail to pay player wages' to 'pompey mis wage deffferal deadline' to 'Pompey go into admin' to 'AA returns as pompey administrator' to 'Chanrai: I will get my money back, I am secured' ..... and like a long running heap of shiedt soap, the cyclical nature of the storyline, will be familiar, and desite the are crash entertainment value, will leave most feeling cheated...

Cant really make acusations, but agree there was a tone in his voice on the radio and the things he said that sounded a bit odd...

Many 'experts' will argue that we lack experience and becasue we play 'football' will not have the grit to survive... same experts probably said the same about swansea. Think it will all come down to being prepared to stick to our guns and play our way - will mean some tonkings against the best but also some unexpected victories - trying to 'get in sides faces' and'grinding out results' is most sides approach to survival, especially against the betters sides, but IMHO, that approach means we lose sight of what we are about - and again IMHO ithink we stand more chance of survival if we 'surprize' a few sides that if we follow the cliched convention. All about confidence and giving it a good go - yep we will get patronized as pluck Saints, but dont give a shietd about that if we stick to our style and look to entertain. Our success over the last two seasons has been built on that approach... up against a far better quality, but everything is possible, if we dont lose heart after a tonking.

... still have to admit, that the PST would have had my utmost respect, if they had simply stated that their aim was to bring some integrity and pride back to Portsmouths club... by restricting competitiveness in favour of long term creditor repayments, use the PPs to pay off football creditors and Chinney once and for all and invest in youth and academy set up... but alas pompey and spending more entwined than the lips of a cheap hooker around Uncle Avram's c....

...or even simpler - you just have a standard one which everyone uses. Dont get me wrong, I love seeing technological development and these bikes are pretty cool, but ultimately it should be about who is teh best physical athlete, and I would hate it if we were suddenly beaten in all categories because the French or the Germans had some new super bike - could imagine we might get a bit of uproar on here!

Simple solution to this - companies can only get the subsidy and get around minimum wage restrictions if tehy provide approved and comprehensive training that 'stacks' up and offers transferrrable skills...

Thing is I dont think it matters whether the smack is planned, or at a moment of anger - we dont need to differentiate between for either the moral argument, or the practical question as to whether its necessary?

First up, its a good debate and respect to Pap for sticking his neck out and standing his ground. I do disagree with respect to it not being black and white - and sorry but the 'PC brigade' is a bit lame - you either see this as acceptable or not - and the argument some of us are posing is that those who see it as acceptable, I would hazard a guess are those who would say they do it and it never did them or their kids any harm... well its is unlikely we would get any posters who would say they did it and it DID do their kids some harm... but thats a moot point. This is not a PC issue, but a moral debate - it remains a moral debate rather than one based on scientific evidence as although many studies draw the same conclusions, with any observational or retrospective analysis, its always impossible to draw robust consclusions that stack up to the same levels of evidence required for scientific acceptance. ...But its also about what is ingrained in our culture as acceptable - in the UK it still appears that it is yet in other countries they have shifted this in one generation, aided by a ban... and use other techniques - the question then remains that if its possible to raise kids without it and they dont suddenly all turn out bad - as evidenced in those countries that have banned it - why is there still a need or justification for it? I think that's a fair question and one which has yet to be answered - it wont get answered though as those on the 'smack side' believe its a right for them as parents and dont want the 'PC brigade' telling them how to be a act...

er.. I do get that, but the UCI have been trying to get away from that for some time, going back to banning the lotus bike, or Obree's low bar and riding position... yes technology has always played a part, but the UCI wanting to eliminate the difference it makes is nothing new and I can understand the principle of what they are trying to do.

But surely the issue here is not about the challenges in securinga conviction, but in the fact that its wrong/illegal? Its true, unlikely to see a conviction for an assult that leaves no mark - but does that make the assult any less of an assult (from a legal perspective or a moral one)? I dont believe it does, if the law says its not allowed...just that the mechanism of enforcing the law and punishing the guilty party (which is fair and just) does have problems with such issues due to the difficulty of providing alevel of evidence to satisfy a third party (the Jury) that it took place... but surely this is all a separet debate?

...we dont need to if we dont use it - surely you see that the principle is that of the BEST athelete winning, not the best BIKE? The best anology could be, I could beat Chris Hoy If I got to use his current bike, but he was restricted to an old bone shaker weighing 50lbs... OK a little extreme, but the issue is, even though I beat him, it would not make me the better cyclist, and I want to see medals go to the best riders, not the best aeronautical engineers, materials scientists and mechanical engineers.

Well debate should be reasonable and it makes a change on here to see that for the most part ... well at least some are happy to keep it that way Agreed that from a legal perspective, there is perhaps a more difficult argument here, and I accept what you are trying to say. Thing is we all know plenty of legal issues where such problems arrise or where we might from a common sense perspective consider the law ambiguous at best or inadequate at worst. In this situation, we also have the emotive subject of, in effect potentially criminalising parents for something that is still seen as normal parental tools, used by normal and loving parents - I accept that this is currently an attitude that within Britain is normal and therefore I dont go along with wanting to ostricize parents who do - it would be wrong to do so. However, thats not to say we cant 'shift' that attitude, but it might take a legal change and a generation for it to be accepted within the population as a whole. Often its only possible to do this with a legal change. I guess its why I am still happy to trot out the Nordic/German examples because they have shown that you can quite quickly see a major shift in attitude within a poulation over a single generation and that it took a legal chage to kick start the shift. For me, and I can only speak for myself on this, I am very grateful that my wife said NO to this, because in some respects it prevented me from doing something that I would feel ashamed of - and made me learn how to cope with the times when it looked like nothing but a smack would do it - and this is why for me it wa sso important, but those occasions when I have felt like that, I know that really it was most likely down to my own frustration at not knowing what else to do - in effect it was going to cover up my own 'failings' or lack of experience as a parent.. which was very hard to admit to myself. Yes I am sure there are some lessons that have taken longer to teach, others that have still to be done and may have already been learned... but I consider this MY issue not my daughters, as she is afterall still ayoung child and has a wee bit more learning and growing to do than me! (although the missus might contest that point )

Someone should just tweet allen #Pompey near liquidation because they entered into contracts with players that were unstainable for a club of their size and spent 150mil of other peoples money that they could never pay back... nowt to do with any of the players - simply expecting the club to honour their contracts....