Frank's cousin

Dont think so, I suspect its the full value of paying off all the remaing player contracts should the club be liquidated - and I suspect this includes payments still due to payers from the last admin who have since left but are still owed - (including the remaining image right payments) - eg teh full cost of a golden share being granted to a pheonix club without a hideous points deduction...

Fair points - but Just trying to add some perspective , which is fair. Mistakes and confusion is not great but these things do happen... for my the mark of good service will be how they now resolve the situation when IF the OP writes in pointing out the issues in a courteous and friendly manner... anything other than a swift and quality resolution would be 'poor service'.

I think if you read my post, I have no problem with letting the club know that this needs to be sorted and that the TO have to improve this aspect of the service... that's a given... its the usual suspects - 'The Famous Five' (all called D ick and F anny) who love this sort of thing as it presents the ideal opportunitry to once again blow it out of all proportion... like I said would they come on threads congratualting the TO and club for the 20k ST sales that will have gone through without any possible hitch and have been exemplory?

Not sure why some are so keen to suddenly begin the shoddy service routine - inefficient probably, confusing definitely, but Unless some one has ignored him, been rude, stroppy etc... its frustrating, but hardly the the biggest issue in the world. As the Kingsland Codger says, just write, explain and let them sort it out. I am sure they will. I suspect that they are all adapting to the new ticketing system and probably stricter rules on concessions... some confusion still exists over what consitutes a valid form of ID for student status. Yep its not great, and these things should really be ironed out and comunicated before taking folks cash, especially as with the smart ticket, if they dont see student status and you dont pay up the extra, you may find the card is blocked so worth sorting and not just thinking you have a 'result'. Out of 20 odd k ST applications there are bound to be a some that go wrong - and as usual they will be the ones highlighted by the those happy to give the club a kicking at every opportunity it gets something wrong. Sure its important to point these things out and help them improve, but to put it in perspective... there could be 20K threads on great ticket office experiences - mountain/molehill/drama springs to mind.... Had STs for 10 years, and about 100+ ticket transactions and never had 1 problem, always quick efficient and excellent service so will those sticking the boot in, be equally supportive of the TO based on my experience? Thought not.....

First up, thanks for taking teh time to read, digest and respond with a decent opinion and well reasoned argument. In part I do agree with you. I am potentially talking about 'cheaper seats' to fill it. My basis though is not a sort of desperation approach, that we have all this capacity and some how need to to justify it by filling it - it is as you say more idealistic - in that the purpose of being able to make attendance more accessible to a more folk and kids etc through a more attractive pricing policy, IS a good reason for expansion IF it can be done without it crippling us financially - eg teh funding source is parmount to my argument. Is it a 'build it and they will come? idea' to some extent yes, but more a build it and they will come if there is greater affordibility as a result. Why this idea? afterall there are many robust business arguments that suggest such an approach is a folly. I have mentioned the German model. 6-7 years ago, most grounds were smaller there than now and not full on a regular basis. Following the stadia development for WC 2006 most ground increased capacity and are now mostly sell outs - within 6 years - and lot of this is due to the fact that the stadia are good, the entertainment and quality is good, but also because they do have much cheaper tickets including those for safe terraces priced as little as £120 for an ST. They in effect built it, got the pricing right and they came ;-) OK, so clubs did not have to fork out a great deal, but it does illustrate that attendances can be dramatically increased IF the package and value is better. But, yes I fully acknowlege that if a club has to invest that sort of moeny, the overall business aspects will take priority over the idealistic view. I also (sadly IMHO) dont believe NC would do it anyway (the German pricing model that is) despite him having a more European background - he will undoubtedly keep prices as high as possible within the range of typical Prem prices... but the empty seats at many grounds these last few seasons, is indicative of the economic conditions, as well as the perceived value. I just feel we need to take a long look at how pricing policy is impacting on attendance and atmosphere generated I will happily admit that this is not just an 'idealistic' view, but also one driven by ego - would love it to have a 40K+ with a bit more character, so naturally am happy to think, discuss, speculate on how it might be possible to build it soon and then fill it. This is IMHO the point of these boards. none of us are making the decsion, so not sure why there has been so much bitterness and **** take over what is something we probably all have an opinion on.

I daresay reading will attract a fair few extra. Surely the question remains, that IF we hvas so many on the database above what we call the hard core, what do the club need to do/achieve to convert a percentage of these form 1 or 2 times a year to 10 games +? Part of that will be opposition, part quality of saints side and level of success/entertainment, and IMHO a major price will be.... Price. We have just seen a new thread on the memorial cup which is full of the frequent comments that its priced too high... depsite no demand issue... simply not possible to justify that price for a pre season friendly - fare enough, but it dmeonstrates clearly the issue of price. The club has dropped a bollock on that one. As some seem to be struggling with the concept and definition of 'flexible pricing'... I will say it again for the record - its NOT about 'discounting' or dropping prices to 'fill' the stadium. For those struggling Please take a moment to take note - NOT discounting. Its about having a broader range of STANDARD prices throughout the stadium and offereing better value to the concession groups. ST price range increases some cheaper some more beyond what we currently do, which is then also reflected in the match day price, but STs still remain the best option. This broader range of STANDARD prices would encourage a greater demographic and IMHO opinion could add 5-8k average to the gate. Does it make economic sense? Depends on the numbers attending in each price category. I happen to feel the club is currently OVER pricing and as a result I think we will be taking an attendance hit - even though its not bad relative to other clubs, the current economic climate and the fact that many fans have been used to cheaper (better value?) prices for teh last 4 or 5 years means it a big psychological increase. The best way to demonstrate is: what do folk think would be our average prem attendance (assuming say a capacity of 40k) IF 5000 of these were available at an ST price of £280 as say the cheapest Adult ticket? Think of the German model that has seen a massive rise in attendance, in part because they have a much broader STR range, decent capacity stadia and relative success. Sure attracting new fans and increasing the average gate is not an overnight thing, but as said before, its a chicken and egg thing... there is a rational for having the infrastructure in place to allow a club to experiment with pricing to max both revenue and attendance - In Germany that infrastructure investment did not fall on the clubs but was supported by the central and local funds in building for the WC2006. We on the otherhand would need to fund it so rightly it is a different ball game. A lot would surely depend on how any development is funded - commercial loans v family interest free money/equity conversions etc... but to suggest that pricing is not an important aspect of attendance is silly. In addition, suggesting that a broader pricing range is not possible with greater capacity is also naive IMHO.

Of course you must be right... you always are in your small ignorant mind - you really are a prize arrogant patronising tosser. I just laugh at your stupidity in bothering to waste your precious time responding without even bothering to read a post - suggesting you have a rather unhealthy (probably you see as humerous in your sad pathetic little life) obsession with trying to belittle others opinions, rather than joining a debate in a constructive fashion... laughable.

22-23K hard core 50k at Wembley for teh tin pot 50k+ on the club database has individuals having bought tickets The not so simple question is how do you convert those 30odd K from being 2-3 times a year attendees to 10+ times a year? That is the question and the one I believe NC/ML were thinking about when making statements of aspiration. Make headway into that and aspiration becomes intent. Maintain it and intent becomes reality. Think we are all agreed on that logic, but, it seems that we are divided on where the level of risk influences the timing. Wait until we have 5k on an ST waiting list? Or go early, combine with a comprehensive pricing revue and make the package more attractive? Waiting is less risky when considering 30-40 mil plus investment and the cost of servicing that over 20+years at commercial rates... but it runs the risk of it us losing potential fans along the way who struggle to get tickets - as we do now, not through capacity but through cost being prohibitive. Go earlier and its high risk in that we may see rows of empty seats, especially if nothing were done on pricing to ensure great accessibilty, especially when times are tough. That is my opinion - Laugh away Turkish et al... but this is a forum for opinion and you I would bet NC will be considering ALL the options, as I doubt they are so blinkered.

You bastard bastard bastard - could n't get tickets and have not seen Tom since 1987 when he played with his Bobness at Wembley Arena... gald he was good though! Jealous as feck:smug:

Not sure about the viability or even any desire and strategy about an EasyJet type model, dont know enough to consider whether its workable in a football evironment where STs always need to be the cheapest way to buy to make them attractive... unless there are say a set number of seats only to which this applies, which as others have pointed out is probably not possible given the FL/Prem rules. But for the record... when I have mentioned flexible pricing: 1. I am talking about an expansion of the ST range of prices to a model similar to those commonly used in Germany and othr countries. Eg certain sections and a certian number of ST are much cheaper, others more expensive. Not only would this encourage more kids, allow OAPs prices etc, but also ensure we are more inclusive - many are on record on here as havoing said Football is too expensive, so to see the same folk argue against a different pricing model that makes it more accessable to more folk, seems ironic at best, moronic at worst. Would we sell more tickets and make more revenue if we had full Adult STs starting at say £280 and rising to £750/£800? Greater capacity would mean we could do do this as well as Kids for £100 with a limit more appropriate? Simple concept and still ensures STs are cheapest way to watch 2. Single match day 'offers' - The rules indicate that cubs can make special offers on a set number of occasions - and for specific games doing specials for kids etc is always a great way to get them hooked at a young age. Why has this not been done previously with extra capacity in L1 and NPC?, dont know, better ask NC.

Nah Ray Reardon and Cliff Thorburn would be a better bet.

...would add as well ego plays a part. Like many fans the idea of having some shiney new characterful stadium appeals to the ego.I guess its a more concrete example (pun intended) of aspiration and intent - whilst spending 30 mil on players and wages does the same thing, that is only ever money straight out the club and the way madness lies as witnessed down the road. Infrastructure has longer term benefits as we have shown in the past

fair enough. I dont think there is a right or wrong in this, just different attitudes and opinions - I am actually surprized in myself as am usually more cautious and perhaps too risk averse to ever make it as an entrepeneur! Football is a crazy business where a player can cost more than a stadium or his wages pay for it in 5 years... so in some respects there might as well be scope for more 'challenging' business decisions. Ultimately it all comes down to money - I suspect those conceptuals and assumeing an 8k increase would be in the region of 30-40mil... at commercial rates over 25 years probably going to cost around 2 mil a year to service that's equivilent to 3703 extras tickets per match (18) at £30 to cover the cost so would argue its doable. Naturally you want more than that to generate MORE income, but it shows its not ridiculously stupid...

1. 24 (aye crap) 2. ''please god left me get this past the ladies Tee what with all these folk watching) 3. maybe you should try something else instead

Perhaps... but maybe not quite as simple as that, more that if we wait for demand to be demonstrated at the current pricing level in the current economic climate, we may be waiting a very long time. My premise (and remember my ideas are as conceptual as those drawings) is that if we had a source of funding that was manageable and preferential, we might be able to stimulate demand through the idea of a broader pricing of STs. Risky I know and certainly not advocated if te only potential funding source was commercial rate loans... but say ML left provision as a preferred or interest free rate?

Re the Birch statement: to paraphrase: '' so far we have not taken a penny out of pompey as there is feck all money to do so - if the club had 450k we would have taken it... thankfully we will be classed as football creditors and therefore will get all our money owed - either from chiney as part of his takeover deal or we will have first dibs on any liquidation... '' or as the PR bull states '' we love the club and want to see it survive so we have not taken any of teh cash it does not have thus guarranteeing liquidation'' And to think the media in pompey fall for it everytime.... there is being supportive of your local club and there is naiviety/gullable incompetance...

I appreciate what you are saying and agree with respect to match day prices, but I guess my main thrust is in respect to ST pricing bands, which as you say already take into account the cheaper prices for cat B and C games. However, what we could do with is greater diversity and range of ST prices based on the area or the ground chosen to sit in (see above re the German model). It would mean we would be able to generate a greater income than our current pricing allows, yet offer cheaper STs to kids. OAPs and other concessions, as a result of a) more ST sales and B) sale sof premium STs - This is what I believe would justify expansion. (If the figures stack up) as we would be a club that not only offers premium posh seats at £45 average or more but also great value STs in certain sections that would make us more inclusive across the local demographic. I guess its the basis for why I do favour the idea of development early rather than a full wait and see, because the club in effect would be seen as looking to become more inclusive as well as generate more revenue (this is all subject to the financials by the way and I have no idea as to whether such a model woyuld be workable - I susupect it could be but depends on how much teh financing would cost/interest etc) As others have said, I think NC has thrown the batton down and its now up to fans to demonstarte demand - but my caveat on this has already been made above. I believe our demand will be limited next season not by desire but by affordability and thus we wont get a true picture of our potential in terms of numbers only in terms of numbers who can afford the current pricing levels (which many consider too high)

I appreciate your point, (and frustration) but it depends on what you consider by 'discounting' - The currrent theory is that we have sufficient demand to charge HIGH ticket prices - prices that many fans find difficult to justify and importantly disenfranchises many - and although I am not stuck in the 'football was a working mans game' past there is IMHO justification for saying that ticket prices at the moment are beyond what can reasonably be justified. In addition, we are also talking about a model that provides for an expanded RANGE of prices so you would also see more expensive seats as well as select areas of the group being cheaper and beter concessions for OAPs and kids... seems reasonable to me if as already stated teh model guarrantees INCREASED totals sufficient enough to cover teh investment AND generate more than we currently can?

Fair enough, time will tell, but if we end up with a lesser average that in 2003/4/5 what will this be put down to, ticket prices? Economic climate? the success of the team? Thats the point really, so much emphasis has been placed on previous attendences, yet the reality is that the demand will be influenced more by cost and what is affordable in this climate IMHO. In simple terms it comes down to the question that do we belive there would be a differencein our gate - what would our average attendence be (all other thjings being equal) if the average price was £25 vs £35 vs £45? I believe we would sell a shed load more at £30 than at £40 - and I am not sure how that would undermine the brand or value - Most German clubs have a model that alows them to sell a proportion of Sts at £100 etc - yes they could make more money slling at higher price points, but they recognise the value these fans bring in creating the atmosphere and encouraging a broader demographic in the fan base so its not without a workable precedent

But surely this is relative - and more to do with perceived value than anything else... or why are so many currently moaning that football tickets are way to expensive?

TBF, I dont think Blatter has an issue pe se with the FA, but one in general about the disproportionate vote /seat that the home nations have on the governing body/rules thing, simply because we invented the game... in every other sport that is now global, this is no longer the case

I think it needs to be placed in context of the fact that TV coverage has meant that the viewing public gets to see the mistakes that the officials miss through natural human error. In the past this was not a problem as we simply had to assume that the ref had the best view, and had no chnace of seeing a more deatiled slow motion reply. Thats the problem, If you are going to show teh audience replays and detail, then there is far greater pressure on the decsions being accurate. No replays, no need, replays especially with the 30+ cameras and extreme slow mo means a very strong need to get decsions right, or else you lose the integrity from the game.

But dont you see this is the crunch? It all depends on what that 'regular price' is and whether it would be sufficient to not only cover the cost of the investment but also generate more income than a sell out at a higher price but limited to 32k - these are the kind of variables etc that need to be considered. Is there a price point at which we would sell out 40k for at least 50% of games? Is that price point apropriate to ensure we cover not only the cost of investment but also INCREASE the match day revenue when everything else is factored in? Ad dto this the creation of a better environment, the image factor of what its says and potential of increased interest and I'll wager that a model could be created that creates a positive bottom line.

Fair points but maybe need to ad what I mean by flexible pricing: there are two elements here: 1. Greater RANGE of seat prices - which would be reflected in the ST price - we have this to some extent at the moment but as we have seen, the anticipated demand as narrowed the range so kids and OAPs Sts are costing more. With greater capacity you do have the option of widening the range so instead of £450-£600 you have £300-£800 depending on seat position, age, concessions etc - in reposne to Turkish' question as to why this would ever be a business strategy its very simple - the calculation (eg numbers of tickets in each range) is still going to made to guarrantee an increase in total ticket revenue + allowance for increased commercial sales (drinks/food) driven also by a possible revamp of those facilities. 2. Offers and reduced rates for less attractive games. - Yes ST should always be cheapest way, but most ST holders have no problem with kids for a £1 games (when with full paying adult) and teh reduced match day price for less attractive games is already factored in to the ST proce calculation. Turkish, your response was anticipated - as usual you try and make teh assumption that flexibilty means cheaper tickets and less revenue so why do that? Sorry but you have not got it - yes SOME seats would be cheaper, but some would also be more expensive and and given the likelihood of an oincreased gate, the model would based on INCREASING total average match revenue. The key point is whether a reasonable model can be established that generates sufficient potential extra revenue to justify the devlopment cost - that is fair enough and I none of us have any idea how such a development would either be financed etc... but you can bet the thresholds have been identified and they will be monitoring it.

Probably true, in fact even with a top 10 position and holding our own, on 'regular' basis based on historic attendances we would probably see no more than 30-32k. The question is would we fill it for say 40%.. the 'bigger' games and would additional capacity allow more flexible pricing models for less 'attractive' games? Is there a financial model (and a lot of that depends on how such a development is funded) that factors this in and demonstrates to the decison makers its still worth it? Add in the whole image issue and potential of revenue generated from additional facilities and IMHO, you start to build a reasonable business case for development (especially if we are only talking about 40k or so). NC will be well awre of past attendances, as well as appreciating the current economic climate and the impact on attendance of potential future relegation (2 years in the prem does not mean we will never be relagated) - but you don't develop infrastructure based on the worst case scenario, its developed to maximise potential - obviously within a measured risk assessment (and that will be primarily influenced by the cost of any finance) How 'big' we are/have been as a club compared to others and what they have done is IMHO irrrelevant - its surely about how 'big' we can become? The potential to grow and ensuring the facilities are in place to realise that potential will be a major part in the decsion making process. Yes we need to demonstrate that the approach and finance from a stable prem position (staying up) is working - but that is about demonstrating its 'Possible' to punch above our current weight, but there is also an element of the 'chicken and egg' scenario here. The only 100% evidence as to whether it makes economic sense will be be when its built and we see actual attendances, even if we sold out 32k every week next season and ha 4000-8000 turned away, its no guarrantee we would see this converted into actual 37-40k average gate.... ... Re flexible pricing - some find this amusing - fair enough. But lets assume for one moment that we already had 40k capacity and it was covered as with SMS with a manageable 2mil per annum repayment - would we sell out at £40k a ticket? NO, would we sell out at a RANGE between £20-60? with better deals for kids and OAPs? I believe its possible to devlop a pricing model that does not compromise total revenue or operating surplus (given additional match day costs associated with additional attendance). Capacity gives you that flexibilty for less attractive games, yet allows you to max out on revenue where demand is higher... So why was this not done when in L1 and the NPC? Well it could have been, and only NC will know the answer, but I suspect in part is that we were probably at the max of interest in L1 and NPC football - we need to be honest and accept that interest is significantly lower at that level and the current core fan base is closer to 20k than 40k... but the Prem is a different ball game and I would not be surprized if these boards don have many threads form moaning about the 'JCLs' with their STs preventing 'core support that was loyal in L1) from getting a ticket against any of the top 6-8 sides next season...