sandwichsaint

Wotte a shambles, I thought the forum match was at the end of the season? Looking at that clueless, unorganised and downright unfit shower we were served up yesterday it looked like half our team were paying £100 to 'live the dream'. Honestly if they had put out TSF's A or B teams for the second half would anybody have noticed the difference? Wotte did they do for the last two weeks at training? It certainly wasn't fitness work, nor was it corners (beyond shocking) or set pieces (they were more threatening to the pigeons than the oppo goalkeeper). A real kick in the teeth for all those that made the effort to turn out, and for those that didn't (?), you've got to wonder if they deserve a club at all? I changed my weekend around and went the extra mile (in fact 300 miles) to be there, you have to be seriously worried if we can't sell out a game of that significance at £15/£5 ticket? To the game: Saints just didn't turn up, whether that was the 'events'. the break, the big crowd, the weather, or general 'resignation' we'll never know but when we needed our biggest performance we got nothing. Comedy goal down in the first five minutes, rescued by an excellent equaliser from DMG. Surely if we could hold out till halftime (I'll repeat that 'if we could hold out till halftime', that's against the bottom team in the league, at home, in front of 27,500 passionate fans playing for our survival in this league and as a footbal club with 124 years of proud history). Concede a ridiculous penalty, which KD saves with one of his more straightfd saves this season, and get to half time at 1-1. Perhaps Wotte's noticed that Jake Thomson isn't a RB? or that Lallana is having a complete mare, or that their LB is shi7 but we are not playing with any width down the right? Or that our route one hoof ball is creating next to nothing? Or that Rudi has already started his summer holidays (he should have gone the whole hog and bought a deck chair out second half). Wotte chooses to ignore the charms of BWP (at least he has pace) and Morgan (he must watch and weep how he can't get into a side containing JT, AL and Ryan Smith FFS!) and soldiers on with PLAN A! (where have we heard that before? and where has it got us??) with predictable consequences, Saints huff and puff, Charlton play intelligently on the break and give Saints a finishing lesson with two excellent goals. It's then all too little too late as Wotte makes subs and changes it around. We actually get up a decent head of steam in the last 15 minutes (why not the first 15 minutes?) and score a great BWP goal to reduce the deficit. Fans now screaming for a point (!) in a game that in the context of the league table should have been a gimme. Wasn't to be, the fans gave the players a decent (and undeserved) cheer off and no booing at all, tho there probably should have been. Davis 8; did what he's done all season JT 2; not his fault, not a right back and I quite rate him as a Div 1 R Midfielder which is what he will be next season Size 5; nerves (?) or just a bad day at the office? Perry 6; did his best but the whole of the back had a shocker Skacel 3; got forward once or twice in the first half but you would expect a lot more Lallana 1; absolute gash, last season he looked the real deal at West Brom and again at home against Sheff Utd. He has had his career blighted and potentially ruined by the events of the last 12 months, he needs to get out now and start again if he can. Wotton 4; would struggle in the league below DMG 7; he's grown on me (I'll go to the doctor first thing Monday) since Wotte came in. Works hard, excellent asset defensively in open play and at set pieces, and he scored a classic 'midfielder's goal' yesterday. He could do well in Lge 1. Surman 4; couple of strong runs in the first half, took two heavy challenges and I assume he was taken off at 1-3 to rest him for Watford. Still a big player for us. Euell 6; wholehearted and led from the front but nothing really came off for him today. Strong second half but very little evidence of a partnership with Saga and didn't ever look like scoring. Saga 4; nil service and a couple of decent snap shots but you would expect more from a current international wouldn't you? Subs. BWP 7, looked lively and interested and got a well-deserved and very good goal, should start RW on Tuesday. Smith 2, held his wide position well, then continually stopped the ball when we needed momentum. Poor delivery, poor player Liptak, thrown up front but predictably nill impact. Wotte 2; got it all wrong today, started with a decent side on paper (bar right back) but failed to react to the game in front of him till it was far to late. Rowing with the oppo's technical area shows 'passion' but he needs to commit that to the players. Charlton: came with no pressure and made the most of it. Keeper played well, the 2 brick CH's gave little away, they put their foot in when they had to and played football when they could (the Chinese number 5 was one of the best players I've seen this season), they took their chances well. On this evidence they are much better equipped for Lge 1 than we will be! Onwards to Watford and Wolves, we will need to improve 100% to get anything out of those games. After yesterday, I wouldn't bet on it.

inCiderDealing with Rosie

We'll walk the feeder leagues....

Very provocative Ponty but I'll take you up on that. I love the club, I love everything about the club, and it's been a big part of my life for 40+ years. Putting all that to one side I really don't think I could find the stomach for a phoenix 'New Saints' that included anything to do with RL. It's not the answer you want to hear but if you think it's been grim the last 5 years, wait for another 5 years of NuLowe... unless he has the backers that he has so conspicuously failed to produce so far Idon't think he'd last 6 months. Hopefully that's all hypothetical and it won't come to it but I for one wouldn't lose too much sleep if the choice was between the noSaints and the RL-Saints.

Surely too obvious.... If there was any chance of this we would have taken it 12 months ago? 'Dear Aviva, can we just play our last 3 games before we give the keys back?'; that's not going to happen, surely we would be trading fraudulently knowing that 6 weeks down the line we were going to knock Aviva for £20m? Why would Aviva sell back to New-Saints for a much lower price? The stadium site must have some limited potential for redevelopment even in the current straightened times, maybe for student or social housing if nothing else? Be very careful what you wish for; I've not seen much other comment on this but surely there is a very real risk (in splitting the 2 companies and then defaulting on the mortgage) that Saints will lose the ground and end up homeless and ground-sharing? To avoid this type of scene unwinding (defaulting on the mortgage) surely we have to a reasonable level of investment from the new owners? I can not see any way in which we can simply walk away from the mortgage and carry on playing at SMS?

But it's never as simple as that is it? 1 We got relegated 2 We employed an uncaring, shambolic drunk of a manger 3 We spent too much on wages and transfer fees for mostly dross (Idiakez FFS) 4 We mainted a near-Premier Lge set-up in terms of academy/squad-size/off the field ops/ticket prices etc. 5 We bought back one of the most despised and divisive chairmen in the whole of the football league 6 We continued (and still continue) to employ unfit, injury prone, uncaring, unprofessional players 7 We failed to actively seek out alternative funding/ownership (going as far as to actively discourage 'inward investment') 8 We failed to make any meaningful bond with the spectators/fans ('customers' if you will) and grow any loyalty and community base (au contraire 'the fans' have been consistently lied to and patronised) 9 We removed the most popular and only half-decent manager we have had since WGS and replaced him with an unproven and inexperienced foreign Dream Team with a mission to get out of the CCC (which end?) playing 'revolutionary football'. 10 We have demoralised our core support to a point where the combination of ticket prices/ lack of success/unpopular leadership (closing the corners being but one small example)/overall 'negative' match day experience/recession (throw in presumaby another relegation) will see ST sales down below 10K next season. Which of 2-10 is/was/were inevitable?

Would it be fair to say we are running out of must-win games? I drew a line after we didn't beat Sheff Utd, we then won 3 out of 3 (false hope) and since then have reverted strictly to type. For what it's worth I don't think we will get more than 5 points from the 3 remaining home games, that leaves us probably wanting 10 points from the 5 away games... we will do very, very well if we can take it to the last day....

Surman RB BWP RM Mills LB Skacel LM Would freshen it up a bit?

Possibly the draw that broke the camel's back? Coat's on ...........

Over-priced, over-hyped, and over here. I can't help thinking we'd have been better off with £1.2m-worth of Robbie Savages / Darren Moores / Matt Oakleys / Jay Tabbs (or even. shock-horror, a full season of Skacel/Saga/Euell). LOWE OUT.

My thoughts at the start of the season were pretty much what is now the consensus: we had an inexperienced and inflexible manager, total voetbal ballacks, the kids would struggle with the mental and physical side, we wouldn't score enough goals, we didn't have a strong enough or a balanced back 4, Killer wouldn't play 10 games, etc etc. I posted at the time that if RL thought we could play a season in the CCC with just 2-3 experienced pro's and fill the side with yoof and inexperienced 20-somethings then in terms of staying in this league we could 'put our collective head between our knees and kiss our ar5es goodbye'.... to which some far-sighted poster (and I don't know who it was) replied 'then you'd better get ready to lean forward and pucker up!' Sir, I salute your prescience!

Can't see any reason why we can't go there and get something; we're on a roll and they are on a wobble. They've taken 2 wins and 6 goals scored from a fairly non-descript run of seven fixtures. Most recent first Sheff Wed A 1-2L Palace A 0-0D Cov A 0-1L Forest H 2-0W Burnley H 1-1D Shef Weds A 1-1D Derby H 1-0W Put that against our current form of three solid wins, all against top-half-of -he-table teams, and that surely puts us in with a shout? Players and fans need to go their with every confidence and keep this run going ... we seem to have hit on the magic formula of scoring goals (Saga/JE) and not letting too many in (much improved back 4 recently). Brum 0 Saints 2 (DMcG, JE)

Awesome away day, a real ‘I was there’ game; Saints were outstanding from the first minute to the last. Game started brightly with Saints on top pretty much from the off. Players and fans were well up for it and the only surprise was it took us so long to break through, fair play to us though as we kept doing the right things, solid no-nonsense defending, shed-loads of work in the middle of the park, and inventive forward play in just about every attack. Hard to see the reason for the first disallowed goal but no mistake moments later from Euell with a clinical finish beyond Wright for the first. We ended the first-half right on top and could easily have gone in 3 or 4 up. Ipswich were always going to come steaming out second half and we weathered some early pressure immediately after half time though we were still playing well on the break. As the game became more stretched a Saints second looked inevitable and after a succession of misses (and several top saves from Wright) Euell grabbed a well-earned second; game-over and streams of Ipswich fans to the exits, before Patterson’s excellent late finish wrapped it up. An absolute stuffing for a team that had only lost 2 in the previous 10 and who were playing for a play-off position. No mistake, this was genuine top-2 form, forget the play-offs, if we had played this side all year we would be right up there now! Davis 7, did the basics well but didn’t have too much to do. James 7, most-improved player in the side, not too much to do. defensively but seems a really committed part of the new team ethic Perry and Size, a pair of 8’s, neither put a foot wrong all night, a really solid partnership at this level. Skacel 7, solid in defence and always willing to get forward. Morgan 7, not sure R Mid is really his position but he worked hard and played some decent forward passes (he even made a tackle though he didn’t look much like winning any headers!) Gillett 8, excellent, seems to have really found his position; distribution still erratic but can’t fault his work rate. Looks like he really wants to be out there playing for Saints Surman 8, the Steady-Eddy of the side, so good you don’t notice him all the time. Fantastic work rate, always taking the correct option; with better finishing from others he could easily have had 3 assists. McGoldrick 9 MOM, worked his nuts off in defence and attack and really seems to have found his position in attacking-mid. Not everything he tries comes off but he never dropped his head and his defending-from-the-front was the cornerstone of our performance. Great little links with the front two and a real goal scoring threat from midfield (how long since we had one of those?) Euell 9, same old, same old. Led from the front, prodigious workrate and two great finishes. Saga 8.5, looked sharp and willing throughout, though he missed two one-ones he would normally swallow. He will get even better now his match-fitness is returning; a real handful at this level Sub. Patterson, really composed finish (and top celebration). Wotte-watch. 11/10! I wasn’t keen at the time but I’m not going to look a gift horse in the mouth! Seems to have got us doing the simple things well, welded onto a great team spirit. Ref watch: D’Urso – superb, easily the best ref in this league. Fans 10! – just like the old days! Non-stop support, I can’t remember more than the odd snatches when there wasn’t a song going and just about everybody joining in. Ipswich? WTF? They just didn’t turn up, the fans or the team. I like to see them doing OK but they were a shadow of any Ipswich side I’ve seen previously, can’t see JM being there next season. PMSL at the thread at the weekend ‘Did RL nearly get it right?’; on last night’s evidence he couldn’t have got it more WRONG! If we had played Skacel (Size) Euell Saga from day one we would now be playing to crowds of 25K+ and sitting comfortably in the top-6. GGGRRRRRHHHH!!!

Next season we are going to have the 'Do-you-definitely-think-we-are-going-to-get-relegated?' poll in early September, we will reply in an approximate raio of 90% Yes - 10% No; players will get large kick up ar5e and start to turn in a 100% home record, we will get into play-offs (easily). Don't see how this can fail and it's definitely a better plan than the one we went into this season with....

Arthur Wharton/Andrew Watson Britain's first black footballer Arthur Wharton was born in Ghana in 1865; his father was half Grenadian and half Scottish, and his mother was from Ghanaian royalty. In 1882 Arthur moved to England to train as a missionary, but quickly became bored with the academic and religious life and left school to pursue a sporting career. A talented athlete, he set a new world record for the 100 yard dash (10 seconds) at Stamford Bridge in 1886. This success gave him the opportunity to compete in professional athletics tournaments, where he was able to make a living from appearance fees. His abilities also brought him to the attention of various professional football clubs He was first signed as a semi professional player with Preston North End in 1886, as goalkeeper. His highpoint with Preston was to make it to the FA Cup semi finals in 1887 where they lost 3-1 to West Bromwich Albion. There was speculation at the time that Arthur was good enough to play for England, but he was never considered for the position by the FA, due in part to the racial prejudice of the time. He turned fully professional in 1889, when he signed for Rotherham United, and in 1894, Sheffield United poached him. Unfortunately, the move was not a success; he was getting older, and was competing with United's new and younger goalkeeper, Bill "Fatty" Foulke. Arthur's career then drifted as he moved from club to club to try and make a living. At the same time, he started drinking heavily, and eventually retired from football in 1902. His life after retirement was not happy, and Arthur Wharton died in 1930, a penniless alcoholic who had spent the last 15 years of his life as a colliery haulage hand. His story was uncovered in 1997 by the Sheffield United based project, "Football Unites Racism Divides". His unmarked grave in Edlington has been given a headstone, and his picture was included in an exhibition of British Sporting Heroes at the National Portrait Gallery. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Watson First black International football player Born in 1857 in British Guiana, Andrew Watson came to Glasgow University to acquire a bachelor of arts degree. By the time Watson came to University, aged 19, in November 1875, he had already played football for Scotland's leading team, Queens Park. Andrew Watson was capped three times for Scotland between 1881 and 1882, and is now believed to have been the first black football (soccer) player to represent his country. He began playing in 1874 and subsequently played for Queens Park. Until this discovery, it had always been maintained that the first black footballer was Arthur Wharton, who played for the English team of Preston North End. But Watson pre-dates him by 11 years. Up until the time of Pele, Andrew Watson was perhaps the most important black player in the world, capable of playing on either side of defence or in midfield. He also went on to become the world's first black footballing administrator. Looks like lying just ain't Saintly? Who was the first black Saints player? I can't go back further than the Wallaces/Agboola/Chicken George ... did we have a black player in the 60's - 70's ... I can't think of one.

Ken Richardson at Doncaster couldn't have been too popoular when, after taking his club out of the FL and into the Conference, he torched the mainstand in pursuit of insurance money and left the club homelesss. But looking at Donny's Phoenix-like recovery i nthe interim, and in a smart new stadium to boot, perhaps he was just 10 years ahead of his time?

PMSL: Venables? Adams?? Peter Reid??? Have they planted a money tree at Staplewood?

'cuts,grazes and take-away food....', I can only assume that the lad involved was battered?

You forgot the sardines and trawlers. LOL at the journalist who asked Eric Cantona why he named his son Raphael, 'after a teenage mutant ninja turtle'.

Heart says never give up till it's mathematically certain ... head has been saying since pre-season that we are nailed on for relegation under the ludicrous Dutch TF experiment. Way too many draws and our appalling home record have left us teetering ... I said we had to beat Sheff U and Watford to have any hope .... we didn't beat Sheff U and for my money Watford is now pretty much irrelevent ... IF we win we have a succession of hard games beyond that so it will only raise false hope.... The players and the dumbar5e 'manager' failed spectacularly (again) on Tuesday .... 'battling' points against Norwich and Swansea really had me thinking we might go D-D-W- which would have given us something to build on..... Can't help thinking we are due a pasting soon, Watford are a real bogey side for us .... don't think 5-0 to Watford or 1-0 to Saints will make much difference come the end of the season ... sad, but realistic.

'Interesting' piece of straw-clutching, but ultimately it's not going to be quite enough is it? On your figures (above) and taking those figures at face value it looks like we would need 23 gates of c13,500 at £18/head to pay the mortgage and for 'players and coaching'. Can you be confident of that scenario unwinding? Fewer STs sold (much, much fewer by all accounts if RL remains), much smaller walk-ups, much fewer away fans. Presumably prices of STs and match-tickets will have to slashed to attract any sort of decent take-up for Lge 1 football? Can you guarantee gates of something over 13K to watch Lge 1 football, with a 'B' team version of this year's team, with the punters paying this season's prices, and with RL still in position? I just can't see that happening; RL may well have a 'contingency plan in place' but unfortunately all the time he remains at the club it is anything but 'realisable'.

Do you really believe this? We have a £20m mortgage, a whacking great overdraft, and we are probably not even breaking-even on day-to-day running costs. Relegation looks at least 'likely'; how will we trade our way out of this position if we are in Lge 1 with much reduced gate revenue (fewer STs sold, less walk-up, less away fans, less match day revenue), less commercial revenue and less TV and other external funding? Player sales and moving out of the high-earners will bridge some of the gap but in no way will it be enough and it will just be a continuation of the downward spiral we have been on since the first relegation. Next year's first team will make this year's (completely inadequate) first team look like Brazil! What sort of crowds will we see in Lge 1 for that sort of football? Throw in the worst set of external financial circumstances for 50 years and we are royally shafted. There are only two successful ways out of this: 1 We are taken over with a cash injection sufficient to stabilise us (ie ward off the immediate threat of administration) and give us enough working capital for a 'fresh start', presumably in Lge 1. How much are we looking at for that to happen? £2m? £5m? £10m? 2 Alternatively the 'fans' bite the bullet and we put a crowd of 25k in SMS every single game, regardless of form, football, results, ticket prices, politics or anything else. Is that going to happen? In reality we are destined to remain on RL's 'zero-option' train-to-oblivion; sheer economics say that on current trends and without either Option1 or Option 2 we will be out of business in the next 6-18 months. And you still think 'admin' is unlikely in Lge 1?

Best not cash that bet just yet then, the deadline has been extended cos of the weather (SSN website) and any deals genuinely in the pipeline will be allowed to proceed over Tue/Weds as weather allows. Have to say it could be a very decent window for us if we can hold onto Davis, Surman and Skacel.

Straight up, this team would struggle with attacking and defending corners. B-Team ----------------------Niemi---------------------- Dodd------Lundekvam------Watson---------Dennis D.Wallace----Williams---------Case--------Marsden -------------Keegan--------Pahars--------------- Defensively Watson and Lundekvam are well up for it, who is there after that? Attacking-wise this must be the shortest front six (according to their heights on Wiki) ever assembled in top-flight fantasy football? Keegan at 5'8'' was more than decent in the air. Pahars at 5'9'', can't remember him scoring too many headers? Wallace at 5'5'', size isn't everything. Williams at 5'11' but not known for his heading. Case was another at 5'9'' great tackling, great engine, great passing and shooting. That leaves CMFG at c5'11'; I can't remember ever seeing him head a ball anywhere on the pitch, let alone head one into the goal? Watson was a useful option attacking-wise but for all the literally '00's of corners he lumbered upfield for how many did Santa score, and how many assists did he provide? A great footballing side f'sure but I'm not sure how practical that selection would be in the modern game? IMO a Keegan/Beattie combo would probably outscore a Keegan/Pahars pairing over a range of situations and oppositions.

Have to think the B team might struggle with corners! Attacking and defending!