sandwichsaint

The day Saints started the long march back to respectability, or another day nearer oblivion? The march was fantastic, a great turnout and a complete cross-section of fans, peaceful, focused and it shows that there are 1000+ Saints fans who are prepared to get out the pub and off their keyboards to make their point. Saints started well and for once we got the early goal our pressure deserved though were unable to add a second. We then conceeded a very poor first (from our point of view) pretty similar to Norwich's second in the week, a midfielder given time and space to pick his spot from distance. It was all pretty rough and tumble up to half time and we were glad to get in at 1-1; any plans we may have made were then undone with Molyneux's red and with Swansea's inventive attack they looked good value for their 2-1 lead and should have gone on and won it from there, but a wonder finish from Saga saved us. Amidst all the positives of the march/fans/support/team effort/commitment etc. etc. let's not forget we have picked up 2 points in 2 games this week, 1 point per game won't keep us up! If we don't win our next two games it really will be moving towards mission impossible time ..... good news is if we can keep scoring we will always have a chance. Davis 7, will be annoyed with their second James 4, done for pace repeatedly and didn't get fd as much as usual Perry 7, steady Size 9, MOM, awesome performance, almost Watson-esqe with his headed clearances Molly 2, dodgy first half and reckless red card Lallana 2, annonymous througout Gillett 7, two players in one; one of them covered every blade of grass on the pitch and made 20-plus tackles and interceptions, the other one gave it away 20 times. Can't fault his effort and prob his best game for Saints today? Wotton 8, I slated him at Norwich but he showed great character to bounce back today from his 'mare on Tuesday. Never lesss than committed and today he looked and played like a poor man's Brian O'Neill and you can't say better than that, fair play to him. Surman 7, the trier in the side, even when it's not happening for him still looking to do the right things, did well with the 10 men problems down his side of the pitch and a quality assist. DMG 5, and after his efforts in midweek it was hero-to-zero time today; worked hard in the first half but missed a golden chance for 2-0 on his left foot when he went back inside the CH who had already been beaten by Saga's flick-on. Very poor second half. Have to LOL at those who say he will be a big Prem player! Saga 8; 10 for his two top quality goals and 6 for most of the rest of it. Still getting match-sharp and his link up play can only get better. Euell 8, looked keen and quickly got us organised down the left side after he came on, needs to START (over Lallana or DMG at the moment) McClaggon 5, not really at the races today, suggest he is better out wide than mixing it with big CH's through the middle. Wotte 8 so far; he seems to have instilled some fight and belief but he badly needs to win the next two ....

KD Surman+ Size* Perry* Rudi+ James Euell* Spider McClaggen Saga* DMG Subs: Lallana, BWP, Holmes, Gillet, GK I would say the 4 with *'s are a given, and we must also start Surman and Skacel every game, somewhere. I've gone for experience across the backline (hopefully to shore up the defence) and two decent fullbacks to retain possesion and start things off. The rest of it's up for grabs and all distorted by not having a decent RB (which is also the problem the real Saints manager faces). I'm not convinced by Spider but on last night's showing (and several others too) Wotton is a busted flush at this level so I'm going for a Spider/Euell combo in midfield. Lloyd James looks like he could be OK at right mid (BWP equally average there if not); McGlaggen gets my vote for a one-off game on the LM but realistically the experience/maturity of Holmes should win that one in real life. I've gone for DMG to partner Saga, he was a revelation last night. A fit, motivated Lallana ought to walk into that side but I can't see anywhere to play him in this system and in our present circumstances.

Interesting evening out with a bit of most things thrown in; deep despair at 0-2 to deep joy at 2-2 and a classic game of 2 halves Brian. First half was absolutely dismal; team played with no shape, no fire, no desire, and were a total mess. Don't think James made a single pass at RB in the first half, we may as well have had Fred Perry and Ronnie Size at CH, Smith at right-mid was beyond annonymous, and Wotton just had a total mare with Gillett not far behind. Ludicrous selection with a 4-1-4-1 line up and Wotton in the (cough) 'Makalele' role and Lallana floating around doing little of consequence. McGoldrick was actually our best player in the first half (!), led his one man band as best as could be expected, tackled back well, and tried to use what little possesion he had. Take it as read that KD was his usual excellent self and he kept it at 0-2 when it could have easily been 0-4 or 0-5 at HT. First goal was soft and the second softer still; their midfielder advancing unchallenged from half way and he had the freedom of Carrow Road to pick his spot from nearly 30 yards, lovely finish but where was Wotton? On that first half performance the season is over; take Davis out of that starting X1 and on what we showed last night we would go straight through Division 3 as well. To describe our first half right-side (LJ and RS) and centre mid (PW / SG) 'performances' as 'Vauxhall Conference' would be to insult those players and that league, it really was literally that poor. Norwich weren't even very good (the only team we have beaten at home) and we made them look untouchable for the 20 minutes up to half-time. Hey presto! 4-4-2 and we turn up for the second half! On the second half performance we could stay up... Lallana went right-side, Wotton pushed up out of the way of the CH's, Saga and DMG up front. Not mentioned him yet but McClaggon(sp?) was excellent on the left, continually offerred for the ball, used his pace to get at and beyond the Norwich defence ('Derry' will like that !!!!) and generally used it well. We started to retain possesion, crunching tackles came in all round the park (don't remember us making a tackle in the first half) and you could feel our confidence visibly grow. Saga excellent leading the line though he occaisionally lost possesion too easily, McG was everywhere in attack, midfield (and defence when needed, best game I've seen him play). McClaggon's goal took a huge deflection but fair play to him for keeping it down and hitting the target. That goal lifted us and knocked the ar5e out of Norwich and the home fans and we continued to threaten while Size and Perry maintained their concentration well to easily counter Norwich's increasingly rare break aways one thumping covering tackle from Size in his own box as their forward pulled the trigger from 10 yards. Even time for the legend that is KD to bait a section of the home fans behind his goal with some no-doubt Ipswich related back chat. Second goal was well-deserved and well-constructed (fair play to Lloyd James who had a decent second half), Saga providing the easiest of finishes to send the away fans mental. From 2-2 we had genuine hopes of winning it and there was little else from Norwich till 4 minutes of overtime allowed them to finally shake themselves for a rousing finish. It was all hands to the penalty area pumps as Norwich closed with 3 corners but real defensive commitment from Saints (surely shome mistake?) withstood the pressure, capped by Euell heading majestically from under the angle of post and bar on one of the last plays of the game. Fans watch. A bizarre game in many ways. Small numbers stuck in one narrow vertical stripe at one end of the ground. Stunned silence for large parts of the first half as we couldn't quite believe what we were watching. Mild diversion offerred from a dozen or so at the back who entertained themselves with anti-Saints songs, berated the rest of the fans, and invited the stewards to throw them out. Eventually confronted by one Saints fan who told them they weren't welcome, cue lots of 'out' gestures and fan-on-fan unpleasantness. First half best described as 'simmering resentment', series of half-hearted chants of Swing Lowe, R U Watching Rupert Lowe?, We want Rupert out, followed by unfurling a RL out banner. Clear consensus (100%!) against RL from the 30 or so fans waiting outside the ground for the coach to collect their tickets last night but no passionate singing/demonstrating against him in the ground. Second half was better, team and the crowd got going which didn't really suit the agenda of the dozen or so at the back who turned their attentions on the Norwich fans and each other. Not sure what actually kicked it off but 15 minutes from time it erupted and their stewards weighed in to take out 2 or 3 of our brave boys whose mates gave as good as they got, and the Norwich stewards weren't holding back either. Very briefly very ugly but it calmed down quickly enough and we finished the game with 4 plod stood at the back of the away section (though to be fair they could have done with being there from half time onwards). Sorry about the mixed review but it was that sort of evening: Davis 8 (generally sound but occaissional dodgy distribution prevented a 9) James (2 in the first half and 7 in the second, has the makings of a decent right-mid) Size (2 in the first half, 8 in the second, showed what he's about and looked excellent in orthodox 4-4-2) Molyneux (4 in the first half, 6 in the second, Skacel next week presumably?) Wotton (1 in the first half and 6 in the second, woeful first half, not much better in the seond, make that a 4 then) Smith (1 for being there) Gillett (2 in the first half, 6 in the second, squad player, but not sure who's squad?) Lallana (3 in first half, 7 in the second, fish out of water in the first half formation, better in second half playing in a more orthodox right side position, nice touches as ever, not much end product as ever; impact sub for me) Holmes (didn't do a lot before liping off) McG (8+ all over, best I've seen him, worked hard, great team responsibility (no, honestly!), could make a partnership with Saga on this showing Subs McClagon (6 in the first half, 8+ in the second; looks a lively prospect, good attitude, pacey, tries to do the right things, excelent option from the bench) Saga (8 made a real difference, needs to get match fit and he could score for fun in this league, must START!) Euell (not on too long, several decent interceptions and his link up play was tidy, classic goal line clearance, must START!) Can we stay up? It'll be very difficult from here ... If we play 4-4-2 EVERY GAME, home and away, and integrate Saga / Euell / Surman / Skacel into the starting line up then we will have an outside chance ...any more 4-5-1 or 4-1-4-1 bowlocks and we might as well give up now.

With Michael Svenson playing the Roberto Martinez role ...... I'd love to see that bit come true but we don't do happy endings do we?

Auf Wiedersen Pet

Are you sure? ... that's Morgan-stepover-and-Hollywood-ball-Spiderman, Paul-old-slow-and-not-very-good-Wotton, and Simon-duracell(for the first 6 or 8 games till his batteries went flat)-but-not-very-good-Gillett ... are you really sure all three of these are 'better' players than Surman? No, didn't think so either. Grant you none of those four could hold a candle to Matt Oakley, a player we have never replaced. Tabb is excellent, saw him in both those Brentford games and he is/was consistently good for Cov ... the sort of goal scoring, goal -creating, hard-running, hard-working midfielder we have struggled to find for a long time.

Interesting angle, how do you 'become' a poor CEO? Can this be loosely translated that RL used to be a good CEO when he had a ground full of 30k fans every week and a GBP25m sponsorship from Sky, but now he has 12k fans and limited external funding he's not very good? What a lovely micro-cosm of the rather sad state of both our football club and the bigger picture. Far from RL being some sort of financial genius who 'got SMS built' we now find he's actually much like the rest of us; in fact he's just like the Masters of the Universe who have fecked over 90% of the population for a generation to come. In reality you or I could have run Saints equally well in the good times; you or I could probably run it better now..... Is there any single monetary/political (or even footballing!) reason for Jan Nice-But-Dim remaining as manager of this football club when we have just 20 matches to avoid relegation to the third division, which will bring certain admin (in the unlikely event we are not already in it), and quite possibly extinction?

Not far away from being a good team, or simply re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic? As much as any of it is about 'players' it's also about form, confidence, tactics, togetherness, self-belief. The majority of our players are beaten before they start, not necessarily their own fault but that's just the way it is. Inconsistent and illogical selections, sticking rigidly to a 'plan A' that most people could see was flawed from day 1 (no decent centre-back pairing, no pace at full back or out wide, no creativity in the centre, and above all no striker!). We have a losing mentality from top to bottom and that's the way it is. Just look at the 'dream team' above: KD no problems with that one, where do you start after that? Perry is decent on his day and gives 100%, but he's also prone to nightmare games and can't play the volume of games required. Skacel? half-decent in the way that a Ford Focus might be in a car park full of Nissan Micra's, but also half-arsed, he's completely wasted at LB, but would be worth a go further forward. New CH we can all agree on. Why drop Lloyd James who did OK again yesterday? He started the season awfully, like a lot of youngsters do, but he has progressively won me over; of all our youngsters he has comfortably the best improvement curve and could be the one to make it at this level (though prob not as a RB). Centre-mids? And therein lies the rub as it has done pretty much since we stopped pairing Oakley with a.n.other. Surman? I admire his game and his commitment to staying here (!) but what's his best position? How many games does he need before he moves from being a 'youngster' to a 'guv'nor'? Spiderman? Massively disappointing so far, a few neat step overs and the occasionally-completed 50-yard Hollywood ball do not a CCC centre-mid make. How many games has he started? How many has he completed? How many has he missed in the comfort of the 'treatment' room? The white Vierra? Do me a favour: has anybody seen him make a tackle since he's been here? Euell at RM, is this a wind-up? I thought he was excellent last year and in the current circumstances he would be in my team every game, but not on the RW surely? Holmes, a journeyman who didn't make it at Derby, has shown some promise at times but like all SFC midfielders seems to have an aversion to shooting, and a major allergy to actually scoring goals (career total of 1 or 2? if I'm not mistaken). Up front I give you Saga (2-3 goals? in the last 18 months) and a.n.other. Not sure what rabbit we hope to conjure here, or what trinkets we hope to pay said saviour with, but on paper that looks about the best bit of the dream team. Thank goodness you didn't put DMG in your 'nearly-good-enough-for-the-play-offs X1'; probably the worst Saints player I have seen in 40 years, 6 feet of unadulterated shy7e. And there we have it: a team that with the right manager would have Wolves, Brum, Burnley, Reading, Palace and Cardiff quaking in their size 10's, NOT. Sorry to rain on your parade but SFC and all who sail in her are royally fecked! How can we not fight yesterday? Gillingham are a team drawn almost exclusively from non-League and they gave most of Villa's first team a really chasing. We need major surgery, not elastoplast. New board! New manager!! New players!!! NEW MONEY!!!! We need league one (and probably L2) if we are ever to stop the rot. When do Norwich tickets go on sale: I'm looking forward to it already!

Def no undersoil heating; apparantly with the pitch being virtually at sea level (river Itchen) it was thought unlikely ever to need it. Have to say that's been borne out over the years. We had the cancelation v Palace (for water-logged pitch) mid-week a couple of years ago, I was on the way and turned round on the M3at 6.00 for that one. Also a game v Spurs (?) that kicked off late for forking flood water off the playing surface. Other than that I can't recall a postponement at SMS so possibly this could be one thing that RL got right?

Probably true, Charlton offered the same last year. Rationale being that ticket prices are a relatively small slice of income in the Prem v TV/appearance/prize money. Fills the ground for CCC games and generates positive home support, generates cash flow in the CCC season, locks in fans and families to the football habit (Charlton still had high renewal rates this season even though they didn't go up). Looking at the timing Burnley must be offering it against a half ST for Xmas-May? Fair play to 'em. Looks like a win/win for the club and the fans (It'll never catch on at SMS then)

I thought £30 at Charlton, and £20 for teens was way out of order. Most home tickets at Charlton are 20/10/5 and they price most of their midweek games at 15/10/5. Am I right in saying that at one time in the Prem this all kicked off and clubs were instructed not to charge a premium to away fans? Does this still apply in the Prem? Did it ever apply in this league? Presumably it doesn't now apply in this league, therefore, question? why don't we screw Wolves/Brum/Bristol City/Forest/Cardiff/Charlton away fans for 30 quid a piece (if they are doing it to us)? 70s Mike (above): Words fail me .... another colossal own goal from the club ... charging STs the same price for their own seat as those who haven't been all year is just taking one biscuit too many.

We all know the rules at the start of the season; corporates/players/freebies and hangers-on will always come first, then next dibs to season tickets, next dibs to members, general sale for anybody else, and anything that’s left. I've not bothered with a membership since we went down (c£80 for four of us) knowing I can go to pretty much any game I want home and away, and not seeing 80 quid as worth paying 'in-case-we-draw-manU' in the cup. I bought two, three, or four tickets to a dozen games last year and have been to six so far this year; it’s very unlikely I/we will be getting tickets for this one though. My choice, deal with it! As to the pricing, I don’t really have a problem with the club making money out of it, in fact they should have gone further for me. They’ve missed a trick on Season tickets: it should have been ST holders 20 quid for their own seat, ST’s guests 40 quid (that’s the same 60 quid you’re paying out for a pair anyway, what it does give is STs a deserved discount on their own seat). Members/non-members with a purchase history who’ve been to x number of games (3 games?) 25 quid. Members who haven’t been to a game and only hold a membership for one-off insurance purposes, £35 Open sale: non-members / stay-aways / ne’er-going-agains / JCL’ s / PremPlastics / Guildford Mancs, £40 Juniors/pensioners £10 all seats, Teens £15 all seats. I can’t see people are moaning at £30? I paid £50 for self and teen on Saturday at Charlton and you are seeing the European champions (or at least their reserves). Anyone that can’t get a ticket, do what I’m doing; go and see Forest for a £-tenner, apparently there’s plenty of seats available for that one.

Where's the final being played this year? It looks like even Wembley won't be big enough for the missing millions if we get there.

I saw chalton/sheff weds earlier in the season (don't ask, long story) and Primus looked top draw, at least at this level. Cranie looked very average (i quite rated him at saints) and I'm not sure if he is still in their starting X1? (he didn't play last saturday) Charlton were very poor that day, and also i spoke to someone that saw them at QPR midweek and they were dire there too. If we play half-decent we can reasonably expect some sort of result tomorrow.

Think this one could be a shoo-in; before opening the thread my thoughts were Dave Watson and Mark Wright and seems several of the above have named the same pair. Honorable mentions to John McGrath/Jim Steele/Chris Nichol/Killer but none come close to the top two. I also disagree that this is a position we are massively strong in; considering we are picking two names there was more competition for the single LB slot!

Had to chuckle at the earlier comment that 'we were short of LB's'; LB must be one of our strongest positions historically? Damn it, we could field a whole team of them: .......... Bale ....... Statham ............ Bridge ... Pycho .... S Mills ...... Holmes Peach ... Hollywood.. Benali ..... M Mills ...................... Vignal .................... Not the most balanced team you ever saw but they would probably beat the current lot, hands down. I've seen all of these play; it's Steve Mills for me, but I'd take almost any of the others in his stead.

Bit early for a christmas tree isn't it?

We were fecked from the day we went PLC, that model was never the 'traditional' model of football club ownership and has proved to be disasterous. Outside the top few 'brands' (for that is what they are) their is no money to be made in football. The Premier Lge/Sky far from taking the game to new levels have effectively killed the game as a competetive spectacle, 4 teams playing for the title every season, another 4 or 5 striving to finish 5th (FFS!) and the rest scrabbling to stay there. The £££££££'s from TV and sponsorship continue to dissapear into the pockets of a relatively small elite of players/agents/hangers-on etc etc etc. Saints have just happened to be the wrong club in the wrong place at the wrong time. With no sugar daddy we borrowed 30m+ for a stadium that with hindsight (or even foresight!) necessitated us staying in the PL for 20 years; who can guarantee that for a traditionally against-all-odds club? The logic of burning the whole of the parachute money with hindsight was probably the right thing to do, unfortunately the wrong outcome! What's clearly not arguable is that if we had bounced back up in season 1 or 2 we would not be in this position now, unfortunately (small understatement) that didn't happen. Saints without the parachute money (or indeed without all the other Prem add-ons in terms of corporate income) have quickly proved themselves to be unsustainable at this level. Where to now? Administration looks inevitable unless we can shift just all about all our adult pros and even that might not be enough. Their worth must be severely constrained by le crunch, Surman 3m? Do me a favour, and with other clubs knowing our circumstances, we would snatch their arm off for 750,000. Relegation looks distinctly possible, either via the selling-all-our-decent-players route, or by points deduction. Personally I hope Saints win on Saturday and I'm looking fd to going to Charlton away in a couple of weeks. Maybe a few others should go while there's still a chance to watch 'Saints' before we become AFC-non-lge something or other. I hope Saints win on Saturday.

Give it the January window and the likely loss of Surman, Lallana, Davis and Euell and we will be probably be seeing rather more than we might have liked to of these Gods of the footballing under-classes.

Briefly. and just for the record, what was the injury situation/availability going into Saturday's game? I rarely read the OS and I'm not in touch with the local media etc down your way. No Perry again? No Spiderman? Euell on the bench ... after being most peoples' MOM against Norwich. Euell's clearly a missing link in the side and one of the few players in the squad that ticks the experienced/leadership box. Was he injured? He would have been the second name on my teamsheet (after KD). Where's Robertson, half-decent debut against Norwich but not been seen since? Why was Gobern starting? Embarrasingly inept performance, looked and played like a school boy. He did it as a one-off last week (a bit like the non-lge sides in the FA cup 1st round on Saturday) but clearly nowhere near ready for this league. Why not Pekhart (who I don't particularly rate) or BWP up front with McG? This 4-5-1 is killing us at home.

Here we go again; we've had six(?)!!! managers since WGS left and only one that has really united the fan base, NP. Face facts, we have been royaly shafted by the appointment of JP, he's not up to it, never was and never will be. One dimensional, naive, lacking in any understanding of the 'english way'. He is a one-way ticket to oblivion, 1 home win from 8 (bring back Branfoot!) and crowds (real people, not made up figures) nudging 10K. Looks like we're back to 'continuity' v 'let's change while there's still time'; would we be where we are if so many hadn't pleaded for GB 'to be given more time'? What a waste that turned out to be giving him all that parachute money and then some again, when what we really needed was a bit more ambition/togetherness/direction/expectation (and a lot less drift and naked under-performance) . Much as JP seems a nice guy I'd have to come down on the side of change while there's still time; and as to the title thread, who would 'realistically' come here? Narrows it down somewhat doesn't it? I'd take any of these from where we are now, over where JV's taking us: Andy Hessentaler (kept the Gills in CCC for 3-4 years against all odds. Currently flying at Dover with 15 wins from 16 this season and could still play in this league! Have to be quick though, he's a decent long shot for the vacant Watford job apparently). Steve Tilson (I would have taken him when GB was appointed. Has over-achieved year on year at Southend and deserves one shot at the big time, if SFC can still be called the big time. Plays good football on a very limited buget) Phil Parkinson (where's he now?) seems to have gone off the rader since Hull but did really well at Col U for several seasons. Peter Taylor, my fave lower-league budget rent-a-manager. These youngsters would be made for him. Micky Adams, Saints connections and years at Leicester and Cov must have taught him something about relegation dog fights! And there's a bloke at Leicester that fits the bill but apparantly he's too expensive so we will pass over him. You asked for realistic candidates so I've discounted the Dowies/Davis'/Shearers/Wengers etc. and for Wotte it's worth I can't see RL parting with JV for at least 12months up to and including relegation and/or admin, he would rather part with another 5000 fans before admitting he was wrong (again!)

Have we learnt nothing? You'll win nothing with kids etc Let's hope he gets a core of experienced old heads in on loan...

Ramos out at Spurs and C***face given permission to speak with the North London Yobboes (guardian 12.06) a small silver lining perhaps?

So what we're really saying on the bi-polar message board of choice is that nothing's really changed? Despite clearing a lot of Viaffara/Ostlund/Idiakez-style deadwood and all of last year's loans we seem to have retained the nucleus of a reasonable CCC side. My too-good-to-go-down X1: Davis Cork Perry WT Rudi Surman Euell Schneid Holmes Llallana John Subs: Bart, Gilett, Wotton, BWP, DMG You would have to be particularly unlucky (or careless) to get relegated with that lot, or have a particularly interfering chairman or incompetent manager wouldn't you? What might be holding us back is that four of that starting X1 are injured? Or that we can't afford to play several of them? Or that three or four of them could go in the Jan window (please not KD!)? In the big scheme of things I'm not sure that last night's (welcome) point really counts for much?

Chelsea at home on a boxing day at the Dell; Chelsea fielded the first-ever all-foreign starting X1 in an 'English' game. Must have been around 2000? 2001? Score? We lost I'm pretty sure. 2-1 possibly?