hypochondriac

It's frickin cold here

It's up for debate but I would say definitely not IMO.

I really dislike the implication that people who vote against this do not know anything about it. Labour should tell people the benefits and we should then be able to weigh it up against the negatives to make up our own minds. It's the same with the BNP debate, unite against facism didn't want the BNP appearing because they thought it would cause mass rioting. Bonnie Greer gave the British public more credit than that and I would like to think that we could give credit to the majority here should they bother to vote. Besides, democracy is about letting everyone have a voice, however idiotic you are and you can't just refuse to let people vote because you won't like the results.

That's my exact point. The real reason they won't have one is because er they would lose and I would imagine by a substantial margin. Far better to do it on the quiet and sneak in through the back door. Even if the treaty was wonderful and for our benefit, labour promised to let us have our say and they have just blatently lied. It's scandalous.

So when I put legitimate reasons as to why this is a bad idea, is that me being a sheep?

If you are asking for proof then you misunderstand the concept of religion.

Nothing against tattoos but personally I wouldn't class them as fashion or art.

Hmmm. Up for debate I would think.

But of course they won't outline it all in detail because they know they would lose. It stinks. I don't know if anyone else saw this last week but it made my blood boil. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8329425.stm Just one of many.

Nice thread 19C. I wish you would do more of this and less of the other stuff.

Of course not but judging by your apology, clearly I was right in this case. Maybe you should listen to my advice more often?

That's a ludicrous reason to not have a referendum. Maybe explain what it is in detail beforehand so that people are more informed? The average person is an ass who will only moan once it is too late. I want England to retain the independence it has fought for, not give it away to some European superstate to spend our money as it sees fit and to overturn our laws on a whim. I know you're young so may not appreciate the seriousness of it (and that isn't meant to be patronising btw, I didn't give 2 ****s at your age.) but believe me it's a massive consideration.

It's not everything like this though. It's one of the most important democratic decisions with regards to Europe that there has been since Thatcher and labour has shamelessly lied to get it through. It's a travesty.

Read the manifesto.

If someone does not believe that this is labour just trying to push through the reforms they wanted with the constitution through the backdoor without a democratic process then they are deluded. It stinks and if you read up on the hideous corruption involved with the EU then you would think twice before strengthening Britain's ties with it. The negatives most definitely outweigh the positives as far as England is concerned. It's one of the biggest threats to this nation than there has been for a long time. In some ways. I can see why people are voting BNP when labour just lie and ignore the British public.

It is virtually the same thing with little changed but the wording. It will end up the same anyway and it will all be done without anyone actually voting on it. It's a heinous abuse of power.

Go back and read the labour election manifesto and then say that it's no big deal. It's a huge deal because it makes a mockery of democracy.

I'm officially leaving this thread. Phew I hear some of you say.

Of course I cannot prove that God existed. If I could then this thread would not exist. That is what faith is, the belief in something which cannot be proven.

The measurements thing was irritating, because people were getting on fine as they were and now it's more confusing because there is now a mixture of the 2. One thing that riles me is that you can get convicted in Britain and then get it overturned by appealing to the european court of human rights. What's that about?

See above. As I have said it is a question of faith and what you believe. Can I also just point out now that this is my interpretation of the bible, I haven't actually stated what I personally believe.

Look, if your just going to go through a list of beliefs and ridicule them then there really is no point in this thread. The very nature of faith means that there are many things which cannot be proven and never will be. Many people do believe in things such as the power of prayer and whilst I personally cannot say that this works, I am not an omnipresent being who can be everywhere at once so I can never definitively say that there is nothing in it. It's like when I say "there's no such thing as ghosts." I can't prove it, it's just what I believe.

Is clearly varied depending upon who you speak to. There is not one group called "christians" just as there is not one group called "atheists". To group them all together and say "this is what christians believe" is absurd.

Not sure it happens quite like that but I take your point. There's a good series of fiction books actually called left behind. An atheist friend borrowed them and actually found them quite an interesting read.