hypochondriac

Presumably your solution would involve pushing for elected government or spokespeople to act on behalf of the Palestinian people? If we are accepting that Hamas do not speak for them.

I think that convoluted non-answer speaks for itself.

I was referring to the polling which shows that a majority in Palestine support Hamas and their aims who are a terrorist group. It's not a childish jibe but interesting that you consider it so. It's naive in the extreme and in my view historically illiterate to suggest that the onus is on Israel to be conciliatory towards someone like Hamas with the belief that somehow they will renounce their murderous ways and not try to remove the Jewish state from existence as they have done many times over the last century. I don't know for certain because no one does but I expect what Israel wants to do is to largely wipe out the threat of Hamas for a generation and once they are confident of that goal there will no doubt be a conclusion to this war and they may be more amenable to talk about solutions. Hopefully at that point both sides can work towards a solution but I would imagine that Israel would want to feel some degree of confidence that there will be no repeat of October the 7th in the near future which will almost certainly mean they would want negotiations from a group that don't involve Hamas or anyone connected to them.

I was talking hypothetically. If you were able to travel to that period of history and have influence over the outcome would you do so? Do you support the formation of Israel when it was formed even if in your mind that meant that some Palestinians had to be displaced? With regards to your second point like you say it's a nice idea but it's pretty much impossible to get both sides to agree so it's fanciful.

For the 100th time where is your evidence that a majority of the Palestinian people oppose Hamas? I've shown you recent data that suggests the opposite. Is your suggestion that a majority disagrees with the views stated by Hamas? If you have evidence to that effect then provide it and we can talk about Hamas and the Palestinian people as a separate entity.

No. The difference is I don't make a moral equivalence between the two. It is clear that you do as you've stated many times. I can absolutely see why a Palestinian civilian might be upset by the fallout from a war but I find it curious that a majority still support the terrorists who committed the acts and who continue to hold hundreds of hostages. If what you are saying is that you can't take polling from Palestinian polling companies and statements from Hamas as incredibly strong indications of what the answer from Palestinian civilians would be (incidentally support for PA has nosedived) and you don't accept that public statements from Hamas are not shared by a majority of the Palestinian people that they claim to represent, then by that logic we've never had any idea of what the Palestinian people think on anything. Your last sentence is just wrong.

So if we take what you've posted at face value and accept it - do you agree that some degree of displacement should have taken place in order to allow Israel to exist? Or not?

Hamas and their supporters have never shown any inclination that they would ever accept that in their entire history.

Pot calling the kettle black! Whenever I point out the anti Israel stances of Hamas and others your only response is to talk about the Israelis. You know there can never be peace because Hamas and those who support them will never allow it. Feel free to respond by talking about Israel again...

That stance is completely unrealistic. If there was any evidence at all that Hamas wanted peace and wanted to coexist with Israel then it's almost possible to have a point that Israel could dial down some of the rhetoric and look for a negotiated settlement. These people want to wipe Jews off the map. No one has provided any evidence to the contrary. It's been repeated on here many times but it's impossible to compromise with a group that views the continued existence of Israel as an affront.

Yes an opinion poll. Here's one from the end of last year saying a big majority supporting the October 7th attack: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/ Here's another from last month https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-popular-among-palestinians/ According to this poll 59% believe Hamas should be in charge in Gaza and 70% support Gaza's role in the conflict. They also don't believe Hamas have committed any war crimes. So there we have some evidence that a significant number of the Palestinian people support Hamas - an organisation whose members vehemently oppose the existence of Israel as evidenced by the quotes above (with many more available if required.) Given this support, it's obviously a fantasy to suggest that these people are down for a 2 state solution. Hamas have dismissed the idea recently, in the past and will continue to do so in the future. I have seen no evidence from anyone connected to them that they want a 2 state solution. If your claim is that this is what the people of Palestine want then you should provide evidence because the only evidence I have seen suggests the exact opposite.

Hamas official, Hamad Al-Regeb in an April 2023 sermon: He prayed for “annihilation” and “paralysis” of the Jews whom he described as filthy animals: “[Allah] transformed them into filthy, ugly animals like apes and pigs because of the injustice and evil they had brought about.” Al-Regeb also prayed for the ability to “get to the necks of the Jews.” Hamas member, Ghazi Hamad on October 24, 2023: “Israel is a country that has no place on our land […] because it constitutes a security, military, and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation.” (October 24, 2023, LBC TV (Lebanon)). He also vowed to repeat the October 7 attacks “time and again until Israel is annihilated,” and expressing a desire to “sacrifice martyrs” (referring to Gazan civilians) for Hamas’ ideological aim of destroying Israel. Hamas senior leader Khaled Mashal stated on October 19, 2023 that he views the current loss of civilian life in Gaza – brought about by Hamas' strategy of using human shields – as essential: “No nation is liberated without sacrifices... In all wars, there are some civilian victims. We are not responsible for them.” Hamas senior leader Ismail Haniyeh, commenting on the loss of civilian life in Gaza on October 26, 2023: “The blood of the women, children and elderly […] we are the ones who need this blood, so it awakens within us the revolutionary spirit.” Hamas have been clear about what they believe. I'd genuinely be interested to see evidence that a majority of Palestinians oppose this group given what they believe. The only information I've seen is that a majority support them and that support has grown.

Sorry I thought my question was quite clear. I have seen no evidence that the Palestinian people oppose Hamas and some evidence that the opposite is true (happy to look at anything I might have missed that suggests they do oppose them.) It's relevant because Hamas are very clear about what they think about 2 states or at least there are many quotes from members making it plain what they think. It would be quite odd if the Palestinian people didn't oppose Hamas but supported the existence of an Israeli state. I have yet to see any evidence that that is the case

Do you have any evidence that a majority of the Palestinian people oppose Hamas?

If you're looking into quotes from the Israeli government, do you want to look at some quotes from Hamas members in the last couple of years even prior to October 7th? Particularly if you're looking to criticise a state for the words of their government.

It's a bit of a silly discussion but if it were a competition about which governments were most liberal, I don't think it's much of a contest between Israel and the likes of Iran or Saudi.

"the current Palestinian view on that is not known" fucking hell...

You haven't exactly demonstrated an ability to look at this issue with balance either (plus you won't answer the questions I was asking, you simply want to discuss Israel.) The answer of course is that Palestine do not support two states and even if Israel left the West Bank, the vast majority of Palestinians and all of Hamas would not recognise their right to exist. I don't think you can seriously contest that.

Expect they'd want them paying the jizya too.

So your contention is that in those circumastances, a majority of Palestinians would recognise Israel's right to exist? Obviously there are many examples of Hamas members saying the exact opposite. Do you think Hamas are unpopular in Palestine?

There's a few accounts that many living in Kibbutz Be’eri were quite up for living next to Palestinians. Then a load of them got raped, burnt alive etc. Seems like a pretty naive attitude to have tbh.

I'd be happy with a Palestinian state alongside Israel. Would the Palestinians be happy with that?

Yes so the fact they have been relegated doesn't make him a bad keeper.

Yes it's the one with a bunch of league one players ahead of him. Football is a team game.

He would be league one. I bet they wouldn't turn down 3.