Nineteen Canteen

I think what is important is we simply support Wotte and the team however they line up. We are moving in the right direction but we cannot expect to be winning every game between now and the end of the season especially against a team who have only lost 4 times during this campaign and could easily make the automatics the way they are playing and with Chopra looking good. What concerns me is if we perhaps not unsurprisingly can't beat a far better team on Saturday then the more negative elements start their woe is me act. After Birmingham away in 3 games time if we carry on playing as we have even without any success in the next 3 there are some very winnable games to come to get those all important 5 wins and a few draws along the way. Its important Wotte continues to manage the team as he has to date and maintain that strong poistive message end of story. Equally, its important the fans maintain some perspective and not expect miracles. If we were in the Premiership as a middle ranking side you could not expect to take 4 wins from 4 when 3 of those teams are in the top 5 and Cardiff at home looks a tougher ask than Preston and even Birmingham away. Its surprising that after a great game on Saturday that may kick start our surivival the air of negativity seeping through some these threads is disappointing if not surprising and some posters do seem to want to revel in our demise and are not sure how to react to Saturday. Even Armstrong was rabbitting on about one swallow doesn't make a summer without acknowledging that Saturdays result was not that unpredictable given the way the team's perfomance and battling qualities had been changed for the better and evidenced in the previous 4 performances. The most important decision for Wotte is to continue as he has and make the changes he feels are necessary based on injury and perfomance and to expect the full backing of the fans.

Um we were very unlucky in both the Sheff U and Bristol C games not to get a point and todays victory was not that much of a surprise considering the way Wotte has changed things. Its a good start not that far off from Pearson's start from memory and no 5 goal defeats. Cardiff and Birmingham are going to be different propositions so may need to take something at Ipswich but after that we have some very winnable games if we can keep playing and battling as we do today. Btw - who do you support?

How about a Lord Kitchener style campaign - 'Your Club Needs You'. Lets encourage attendance and not boycott and avoid the illogical protest that could bring down the entire club and may still not guarantee the removal of Lowe. Anyway, things seem to be making a turn for the better under Wotte so what are protesting about? Is it the same thing we all marched for after JP was appointed?

Must adimt driving down the Avenue at 2pm I thought I had overslept by 24 hours. I think these marches may turn into some new form of 'walk pooling'.

Apologies Nick i didn't see your post before I just posted my comments below. I agree with you 100%. Keep the protests to Lowe out, knocking the manager after 4 games who has a decent pedigree makes us look ridiculous and although results haven't quite gone our way in the previous two games at least you can sense a change for the better and a much stronger style of play.

I was wondering that. Did Connor carry his flag 'Wotte Lowd of Rubbish' in the same way on the way home? Wotte seems to be showing Pearson like characteristics and he can't be all bad if Martin Jol wanted him as part of his management team. I just hope people are realistic about the game next week. Cardiff have only lost 4 games all season and we have far easier games coming up to get 5 wins. I'll take a point and a decent performance at the very least. Having a go at Lowe is one thing but having ago at Wotte it's smacks a little of almost wanting your club to lose to prove your theories. Wotte has toughend us up judging by some of those challenges to day so Connor's protest flag was not very well considered and IMO if that march wants credibility they need a better spokesperson and I'm not clear what Corbett is hoping to achieve. Surely she can arrange a meeting with the board to discus her concerns given her connections without sitting on a public highway.

Wes on balance I would say you have summarised that pretty closely to where I am coming from but I never said that for the fans to comeback whilst Lowe is still in charge wouldn't require a leap of faith. However, that shouldn't be a problem for us as football we are often told is a religion and I've never come across one of those that doesn't need an unbelievable leap of faith. The only point I take major issue with is the fact you believe I would blame the customers for the failure of the plc. I know you have a major issue with the plc and I can understand that but I don't have a problem with the plc other than the way things have been managed over the past 5 years and the pettiness of the 'big' 3. The PLC structure wasn't the problem the attitude of the shareholders and directors past and present most certainly was iMO. Now I do not blame the fans for the those past 5 years that would be ridiculous and we both know that. However, if we were to go into administration before the end of the season fans who have stayed away simply because of a Lowe prejudice or results on the pitch then I would blame then for being at least in part culpable for putting the club into administration. Its in the name but supporters do sometimes have to help 'prop' the club when things get bad which they will, as its part of the game. Look at Norwich they got another 24,000 today and perhaps if we had that strength of support there could be some economies of scale that we could all benefit from. I just feel the marches are negative with no plan beyond get Lowe out which he won't do on the strength of a somewhat futile march and boycott and hitting the club's revenue when they need it is simply economic madness unless you not only hate Lowe you are ambivalent about the future of club. In the meantime I hope you changed your mind and got to the game today. Apparently, the light at the end of the tunnel has not gone out it just needed a new bulb - amazing these new bulbs all that light from just the 1 Wotte.

Your very wrong Um pahars and you continue to ignore the fact I am suggesting change but the focus has to shift in the short term from trying to remove Lowe and focus on the increasing the revenue for the club. You talk about someone must be out their who can take over the job of CEO then yes of course there is but it takes a lot longer and will be a lot harder to convince the board to a) change, b) recruit c) appoint d) wait for the candidate to serve their notice. In the meantime the club could have folded through lack of support. At this this stage supporting Lowe is irrelevant as I am only interested in supporting the club. At least the marchers are trying to do something but it has no teeth and supporting a boycott has ridiculous ramifications that a genuine supporter could not contemplate. Meanwhile Rome continues to burn and if the compromise appears to all be on our side then so be it but afterall it is our club. Once made and with a message that fans are coming backing solely to support the club and not the board then maybe Lowe's position will be come more unteneable and they will recognise that a CEO should be appointed as a compromise to match that shown by the fans. Bottom line for me and why I have supported Lowe is simply because I saw him as the lesser evil of Crouch, Wilde and the mystical Fulthorpe Consortium. I still do but that isn't the ringing endorsement you would like to label me as having and my view point has never changed. Crouch insulted our intelligence and is all talk and after timing so I had little choice but to support Lowe or be ambivalent but the latter goes against the grain of supporting a club. It seems I need to give up on you but hopefully through those public debate it may have given some boycotting or apathetic fans food for thought. Enjoy the game and hopefully the team put in a decent performance and even defeat today or next week against cardiff will not be a disaster as we have plenty of easier games to come to get those 6 wins. So if we are playing well and go down a goal or two please behave yourself.

Search the posts of Clapham Saint and you will find one he posted earlier this week. It will outline all you need to know from someone who works as an Administrator.

Um you continue to focus n the parts of my posts that you feel most negative about but ignore some of the other equally relevant arguments. It woudl be good to get your view on each point raised instead of those you can selectively use to dig the trench a bit deeper. To move forward we need compromise from both sides and I can't think of many treaty's that have been signed off that has not required a significant shift in entrenched positions. Comments above in your post but I fear I may be wasting my time trying to get some sort of buy-in or acceptance from you that if the marches and boycotts don't work then we need to try soemthing else that we can influence.

In the scheme of things Lowe is a small nut compared to our football club surviving well into the future. I guess as the thread has lost its legs we are reassuringly accepting that apart from Alpine, Administration is the one path none of us want to take.

Actually, I needed to make a call to my broker and cut some losses.

Um I have to say when I first read your post I was disappointed you didn't even acknowledge that my idea had some mileage in it instead of writing it off as fanciful. I deleted my first response where perhaps I pressed the keys a little harder than I should!. Lowe isn't going to be forced out but he could be coerced out if the protest was depersonalised and we had a protest or a call to arms for those fans who have stopped supporting us for whatever reason. If we could get half of what we lost surely it would help our situation. Connor Bowers protest is 'Lowe out' and then what? I doubt he has even spoke to Crouch about his 'proposa'l for him. At least a march to highlight the club's plight and need for support to avoid administration is positive and with a potentially stronger and more supportive message for the media to take up. Is it anymore fanciful than suggesting Lowe can be removed using the current techniques and Crouch will ride in to save the day. If there was a proposal on the table that we could support that would wipe the slate clean and install a new board with no connections to the main shareholders and current and ex directors the the march may have some bite. Otherwise they may as well march for promotion to the Premier League. We agree we need change we just disagree on how to go about it. As Weston Saint says its surprising when fans chose to boycott a game/season simply because they don't like an individual. Its more surprising when fans with intelligent insight such as Wes Tender adopt this position as you would hope these are the very fans you would look to who could recognise the opportunity to seize the moral high ground and I suspect there are occassions in all our lives when we've let our principles get in the way to the detriment of others if not ourselves and other times when we've relaxed them to move on. I agree the message from the club's representatives as been at best robust and worse beligerant but that does not mean we have to mirror those attitudes. In fact if we do we will go nowhere and your conclusion will bear its fruit. My view that a march to raise awareness of the club's plight and get fans back initially without change but purely to save the club financially just seems a whole lot less depressing than merely campaigning for something that can only lead to more uncertainty. If we could do without the march and a double page advert in the local press then all the better. I supported the implementation of the new coaching set up simply because I thought desperate times needed radical measures and I guess if it had paid off we would not be having this exchange now. One thing for sure is we can't waste energy debating over the past and I personally need something less depressing and a campaign with a more positive measureable impact otherwise your slow lingering death scenario could become a call for the crash trolley. Softly, softly, catchee monkey. I sincerely believe its time for a positive and perhaps unconvential change in tact and only fanciful if you don't believe that financial security of the club is at the moment far more pressing an agenda than the removal of Lowe. Help the club achieve a more secure footing with a message that we need to cover 5 years of mismanagement no director past or present during that period will come away without egg on their faces or be able to claim they turned the club around . It would be down to the supporters and how will that look post recession when the time for change will come and investors want to flex their financial muscles once again? Not sure how this fits in with the attendance for Saturday and I can't help thinking we may have lost a potentialy interested audience burying our debate with Wes and Weston in this thread. Just to make it relevant I think 15k for tomorrow.

Um interesting reply and food for thought. I agree I have no evidence to support my claim that Barclays will only work with Lowe and another change will invoke administration. Like wise you have no facts to support they will work with Crouch again. We live in unprecedented times and when Crouch took the reigns in Dec 2007 no one had heard of the credit crunch least of all the banks and 120% LTVs were still widely available, etc. So to compare the past with today is like comparing apples with oranges. My hunch, opinion gut feel was that when Lowe took control in May in an altogether bleaker world for the banks and the general economy it felt to me that we had entered last chance saloon. Screw it up this time with regard to the finances and there is no way back. I don't share your optimism but i don't think your suggestion is ludicrous either and I'm surprised you find my analysis without any foundation. Most of our fans deserted the club last season dropping off significantly from the first 25k. The decline under Lowe has continued but at a slower pace I think simply because we are finding the number of true hard core fans of around 12 - 14k. Everyone involved with the club at a senior level is equally culpable but removing them now will actually solve nothing and will risk the future existence of the club IMO. I don't have the answers but a march to encourage supporters to come back to the club in its hour of need will be more productive than a march for Lowe out but could be equally embarrassing for him as we our saying come back fans they've screwed us big time and we are going down without you. Much more positive action, saves the club, embarrasses Lowe by highlighting his failures and gives a positive message to future investors. The bitter pill means that Lowe isn't removed immediately but the tide may have turned and with patience and an upturn in the economy we may look a lot more attractive than we do today as an investment vehicle or just a good club for a wealthy person to want to get involved with. With the fanbase coming to SMS even relegation wouldn't mean administration. Something has to give Lowe and Wilde are unlikely to, so here is a chnace for the fans to take some moral high ground and turning a negative protest into a positive one will make Lowe a little more uncomfortable. Its a bit like the story we were told as kids about the weather elements trying to force the old man's coat off his back. It couldn't be done as he just pulled it tighter against the cold, wind and rain and general meteorological abuse but in the he chose to remove it of his own accord once the sun came out. We need those 10,000 missing sons (sic) back in the stadium. I'm sorry I haven't done your post justice but I'm on my way out for the evening and already late. Be interested in what you think.

If we go into administration the points deduction will be the least of our worries and frankly irrelevant if the club is broken up and sold off piece meal to meet the creditors demands and lack of an acceptable rescue package or investment to pay off the creditors. Some of you seem to think it's clever to be calling for administration but its a bloody big hammer to remove a very small nut and the risks are enormous. With the greatest of respect any fan calling for or condoning administration simply has no grasp of the gravity of the situation or they are armchair fans who are somewhat ambivalent towards the club's survival.

You may only buy two tickets Wes but if you don't buy them thats two tickets less and if others follow the decline in revenue snowballs to a degree that yes those who have remained loyal thoughout could have their lives changed by the collapse of their club. I don't think that is dramatic how often do we read on this forum that ' I go because what else am i going to a on a Saturday' or words to that effect. On their own two tickets won't amount to much but you remain part of a bigger problem who IMO believe that the best way to make your point is to restrict the club's revenue which contradicts the term supporter. I know you wont agree with that but I can't help but try to convince you otherwise and it's why put the principles quote up. With the greatest of respect but sod your principles which club do you support? I am not scaremongering, I have no Lowe orientated agenda, I just firmly believe the mechanics of administration in the current economic environment would be very very risky as to not worth contemplating and frankly I'm surprised you find it an acceptable risk and would genuinely like you to explain why you think administration won't see the club fold completely. or the risk is far smaller than I would lead you to believe. Finally, on the attendance issue you will find that from our start point of just under 19k for our first home game numbers have actually held up ok with an average just under 17k. Last season we started with 25k for the first home game against Palace and by the time Crouch appointed D&G numbers had declined to around the 15k mark. The real damage was done last season IMO and this season whilst we have eroded out attendance figures further the numbers aren't as bad as the previous season or those with passionate anti-Lowe stance would have us believe. I say lets keep the status quo and our enemies within until we have ridden out the recession and threat of administration but that is totally dependent on fans buying tickets on match days. If that can be acheived then when the time is right hopefully 2010 investors may view us as an attractive proposition with strong and loyal fan base upon which a business case can be backed for a takeover. I don't think that could be achieved at the moment and its why Connor Bower's march is so utterly futile and damaging only to the club and not its intended targets.

Colin my understanding is that a buyer will have to repay all the creditors or put together a rescue plan that satisifies the creditors of the club's ability to repay in the future. Its is solely about the needs of the creditors. No one we know of in the public domain are going to be able to afford route 1. (As the stadium is mortgaged provided the mortgage provider is happy to extend the borrowing to the new owners they will not need to repay the stadium debt other than maintain repayments). The unsecured debt I guess must still be about £6m and that is not an insiginificant sum and you woudl still get hit with -10pts. Going the other route of producing a business plan to stay in business without repating creditors is going to take a lot of work especially with banks wanting to reduce their exposure to risky lending. This will also mean a higher points deduction which if left until after March would come out of next season's total, making relegation likely in 2010. This would obviously hinder any rescuse plan put togther by Lowe or a n other and administration could visit us again if we slip into League 2 and the it really would be over. No significant investment post administration and its finished IMO.

Wes you and others who are clearly following your approach are playing a very foolish and risky game. You liken it to Russian Roulette and Lowe has the gun. Trouble is what is the greatest prize, seeing L & W lose their investments and the club going bust or you as a lifelong Saints fan witnessing your club going into Administration and run the significant risk of losing your club altogether. Seems to me you advocate long term misery over a brief moment of satisfaction and when you hold the gun its the only time it has a bullet in it. That suggests a 1 in 6 chance of the club being dismantled and closing down when you probably need 3 bullets in that chamber to reflect the true odds. Its not logical, if you want something to survive you don't contribute to/or support dwindling attendances especially as people get use to doing something else and as we have seen in the past don't come back. I'm not sure how you call paying to watch a game a selfish enjoyment that your principles won't allow when you are selfishly contributing to the removal of a lot of pleasure and a way of life to 12,000 - 15,000 loyal fans. 'The most useful thing about a principle is that it can always be sacrificed to expediency' I hope you think on Wes because you don't strike me as someone who will stand by and watch their club go too the wall in some misguided belief you are taking the moral high ground from Lowe and Wilde. The only way we are going to win this is by support through the turnstiles and keeping our enemies close until the green shots of recovery and potential investment bear fruit in 2010. Sometime as you will appreciate the best plan is to watch (&pay) and wait.

I'm nodding you blind bat.

It won't be the same though. We will lose our league status probably starting off in the Southern S&W division and unable to call ourselves Southampton FC. If that name dies it will die with 90% of the fanbase. You know the seriousness that administration will bring if judging by your previous posts and knowledge of the club's financial history. I don't disagree with your sentiments but they gloss over the reality and warning us 'it won't be painful' hardly delivers the most likely story given the current economy and amount of unsecured debt. Even if we can go forward with a plan that doesn't repay all the creditors but keeps us trading the points deduction will far exceed -10pts that will mean we drop through League 1 in a season and then as the post admin plans fails we will have administration again and we'll make Luton look like a minor shunt in terms of crashes. It won't wipe away our past but I personally won't be able to support a new derivative in the lower reaches of the non-league and I don't understand how fans so passionate can advocate administration or protest when by doing so they are effectively supporting corporate euthanasia either directly or indirectly, In fact some (not you Um pahars) seem to be queuing up to turn off the life support machine. 'Fan's such as Alpine who say they don't believe Administration could mean the end of the club are igorant and haven't bothered to assess the risks or else they simply enjoy watching 'Rome burn'.

Wes if many follow your example the Club will not last much longer and IMO you really are cutting off your nose to spite your face. I know you won't agree with me but if Lowe goes it will be through shareholder action as last time or the creditors get twitchy and demand payment and then we are in administration. IMO I feel Lowe has managed to get buyin from Barclays but it is tenuous and clearly Lowe is beholden to them. If Lowe was removed via a 3rd way such as fan action then there is no guarantee Barclays will have the stomach to work with another chairman without significant investment. I think we can only conclude regardless of personal opinions but Lowe going will result in administration unless its as a result of new investment. Again IMO administration for a football club today could be the end simply because its very concerning to know where an investor will come from with enough funds to pay off the creditors or put together a rescue package that would satisfy the bank in particular. Lets face it the banks appetite for risk has evaporated and I'm not certain but would we be the first club to go into administration in the post credit crunch world. If banks and major retailers can go to the wall why not football clubs. The Housing market is going through a massive revaluation and surely at some stage football will have to as well or implode as its not supportable unless you have TV money or a very strong fan base and manageable debt. I could see Barclays making an example of us and 15,000 loyal fans won't have any say in the matter. I was thinking today why we haven't received our ST renewals? May be innocent in that they haven't finalised pricing or simple administrative tasks to be done or it may be that perhaps they don't want to take fans money and the risk they become just another unfortunate bunch of creditors. I am guessing here and have no inside track to anyone at the club but it does raise a bleak question if nothing else. You may have read them already but do a search on the recent posts of Weston Saint and Clapham Saint and their fears of administration. The latter is an Administrator and wrote an exellent piece on what will happen when an administrator is appointed. Its a valuable contribution that went largely ignored but we would all do well to heed its message. In the meantime, can I genuinely and respectfully suggest that as you are a few rungs above those organising the march and somewhat more savvy of the pitfalls you get to the ground for 2pm, buy your tickets and watch the marchers arrive or whatever and then get inside and support your team. This is no longer about Lowe out/Crouch in/All out and all that ****** as far as I am concerned its about supporting your club in their greatest hour of need and you may live to regret not being there. Protest now is futile because there is no alternative to support so fans can either choose to ignore their prejudices against the current board and go to the game and support the club. Or those wth a protest agenda and refusing to go to the game can carry on but understanding at this stage of the game they are simply accelarating our path to administration and that is a highly risky strategy and I refer everybody to Clapham Saints post (search on his username to find it).

Mike I know what you are trying to say but by the same token our last game last season winning did not necessarily mean safety. We had 3 points to win and no more games and fortunately those above us slipped up so we stayed up. This Saturday we are 5 points off safety with 3 points to play for and still another 13 games and 39 points after that. Even if it goes really t1ts up on Saturday we will be 8 points from safety and still those 39 points. We are still in control of our own destiny and even if we don't get anything at home to Preston or Cardiff (only lost 4 all season) then its still not desperate with massive but winnable games against Watford, Charlton, Forest, Sheff W, Palace, Derby, Blackpool, QPR all looking a lot easier than our next two and points to be picked up at Ipswich and maybe Burnley at home and writing off the games at Wolves and Birmingham. What do you think will be the safety cut off this season? I think it will be a little lower than last year as the teams fighting it out are doing better than those down there last year so less points in theory to go around with no obvious banker games. I reckon between 46 and 48 points so stick with the 6 wins and as many draws as we can get. Surely better than relying on just one win and hoping others do you a favour? Not much btter granted but still in our hands - just!

They said the same about Stuart Pearce and Paul Ince. Pearson is simply managing a club with resources head and shoulders above anything in that league. The true test will come next season for Big Nige. Nigel got lucky, the man who really saved was Richard Wright quite literally. Lets give thanks that Davis, Bialkowski and Poke or whoever it was all got injured at the same time as i doubt we would have dug deep for Wright otherwise. Lets not forget 1 year ago today we were in apparent safety of 18th and with Crouch perhaps no longer believing the play offs were possible unlike 4 weeks earlier. 12 games later we found ourselves where we are today. I would say that's all to play for. COYRs! He only has the potential IMO to be the most over-rated manager we have ever had.

After long and careful consideration I have come to the logical conclusion that in the absence of any investment coming from any quarter we have to stick by Lowe and Wotte at least until the end of the season. Any further protest that may or may not have a negative impact on the players or has a negative impact on the club financially and damaging effect on its profile in the media must cease. We as supporters all need to go back to what we are good at, namely throwing all our support behind the team and revoking on our petty promises to stay away / attend away games only, until Lowe is removed from office as these actions will just as likely bring the club down as anything Lowe can or won't do. If and when there is a credible alternative to Lowe in the public domain then we can throw our support behind that but in the meantime our sole ficus should be supporting the club unconditionally and keeping it out of administration at all costs. - Stanley and those of equally unbalanced views or abusive responses to any post other than kick Lowe out.