Nineteen Canteen

Saint1977 firstly can I point out that I do not set out to deliberately wind up anybody I just post my views in the hope of inspiring proper debate and usually get told to f off or some other disparaging tone because its easier for people to respond in that manner than debate the points I raise. My views haven't changed because the situation remains grave and some supporters at times are their own worst enemy IMO. If other posters want to dish out the abuse then sometimes what is good for the goose... and all that. I am surprised no one has latched on to Clapham Saint's excellent piece above about the realities of administration and the role of the Administrator. Frankly if the choice is Lowe or Administration which surely it will be as the creditors (Thank you Tame btw, I am aware of the difference but I think I must have had a senior moment) are unlikely to draw comfort from some emergency team being cobbled together to takeover in the boardroom then I would prefer to risk our fortunes on Lowe than risk losing the club altogether under Administration. This is my major issue with the protests as its simply remove Lowe and invoke Administration rather than some Crouch led takeover. Like you I am not a fan of any of the main protaganists a bit like our political leaders and policies but you need to vote and back somebody otherwise I believe you forego your right to an opinion which many are also happy to do of course. I back Lowe today because what other option is there? Crouch and his fan friendly rhetoric and reliance on a football dinosaur like McMenemy who IMO has had more damaging influence over the club and team than Lowe himself. Following their own personal agenda for personal gain is surely a complaint that can be levelled at all 3 but perhaps none more so than McMenemy IMO. Crouch told us he had secured funding with the bank but he also told us a lot of other things that never materialised. I'm sure Lowe are Wilde are working hard to protect their own interests but doesn't that correspond with our own desire to avoid the serious risks of administration and sometimes having large shareholders in charge who risk losing everything if they get it badly wrong can work to your advantage and/or satisfaction. If Lowe can pull the rabbit out of the hat this season and maintain our financial security for another season and CCC survival then in the absence of a new investor it is unlikely the creditors or the middle ground of the fanbase will want him removed. If he fails in these objectives and in the absence of investment be it from a preferable new source or Crouch then its over and we are in the gods and we could be the first club with a big profile to be allowed to go to the wall for the reasons you mention. So do I want a new investor with £50m - £100m to takeover, yes of course. Is that likely over the next 2 years? No it isn't. We talk about Lowe's credibility being zero but he has tried to be innovative and his policy of financial prudence post 2003 looks today like a very sensible course of action and one of which had we followed we would unlikely to be in this mess. In fact your assessment of his credibility doesn't sit well with the canyon of wealth between the PL and CCC and my guess is that his determination to protect the club financially is actually something the stakeholders will welcome if it isn't necessarily deemed a fan friendly policy at this time but look whwre that got us. Bottom line fan friendly policy is the Roman Abramovich policy of spend spend spend and for a club our size that will never work without unconditional investment. If banks can fail in todays world are we likely to become the first government funded club? At the moment its seems to be a straight choice Lowe or Crouch and I believe Lowe has the stronger stomach for what lies ahead and won't worry about the abuse whereas Crouch would just go down the land of false promises until the land ran out.

That said if the debtors are repaid in full then they are not going to be concerned and nor will the administrators if it's Lowe, Crouch or An Other as the role of the Administrator would have been fulfilled. If the debt isn't repaid and in the absence of new investors they will look at possible bidders such as Lowe or Crouch and their respective supporters and neither may fulfill the debtors/administrators mandate and a sale of assets is instructed to raise revenue to repay the debt and wind up the club. I am no expert in these matters just trying to think through the various outcomes logically without trying to pin hopes on some kind of security blanket that is unlikely to exist. IMO fans will have no impact on the working methods of the administrator and the fact we today have such a weak fanbase may already be working against us. Derby County are an excellent example of the importance of support through the bad times as ultimately it makes the club a more attractive proposition. We are already damaging our saleability IMO should the worse happen and even if it doesn't.

Mike, I would actually be interested in your opinions with regard to the potenial scenarios administration could bring to this club without reference to clubs that have gone into administartion in the past unless we you use the early 80's as a time of equal economic downturn as we find today. You could use Aldershot as an example if you wish. I'm afraid Lowe is the best of a bad bunch but one who for the time being appears at least to have Barclays on board and is best positioned to save us. I am convinced if we simply changed boardroom personnel now simply out of blind hate the Bank will not look at all favourably on that change unless the debt is repaid. The fact I still post on this forum is because I care about it passionately and I'm mindful of the potential risks involved that administration could bring. Therefore, I put up with the barrage of abuse and wild accusations to reiterate that the fans who stay away simply because of Lowe or only attend away games are to variable degrees culpable in jeopardising the future of this club as Lowe, Crouch, Wilde, Hone, Uncle Tom Cobbley and all. To be honest you and other posters with similar styles can keep swearing at me, dismissing me, poking fun or ignoring my views but the issues and risks remain and it would be could to talk about them at least. Sticking your fingers in your ears and talking in a loud voice won't make these genuine concerns go away. The fans need to get back to supporting the club if their personal circumstances allow as it obviously and painfully needs the money but calling for ST holders not to renew then you may as well turn of the club's life support machine and start praying because any power the supporters had would be gone as soon as the Adminstrator walks into reception. A few years ago things may have been different but today a football club going to the wall could be just another example of the gravity of the global economy and how risk averse banks have become. Could even use Saints as an example a warning bell to other clubs that their 'lifestyle' cannot be supported and changes need to be made to the way they operate financially. I genuinely hope you can give administration some thought and outline how you see it panning out. You never know you might actually convince me that I am worrying over nothing and believe me that would be appreciated.

Absolutely. I don't go to SMS to watch Lowe chair a business meeting or listen to Wilde discuss his programme notes. Equally, I would go if the false prophet Crouch and the spanish inquisition Corbett oozed back into town. In fact the programme will be more entertaining. Wilde's comments are very dry and boring telling us as it is but Crouch's fables would be a welcome half time read again.

24th Charlton - a 2-0 win over anyone but Plymouth would suggest a turnaroud in form but it's merely a blip. Soon be back losing. Poor manager, bigger debts than us and even more reliant on youth. 23rd Plymouth - Can't buy a win and surprising they stick with Sturrock although difficult call with his illness. Regrettably, managing a football team and suffering from such a wasting disease is not compatabile and I have nothing but admiration for the bloke and the club for sticking by him but I think that honourable loyalties will be their downfall. Pity because they are IMO one the league's good guys. 22nd Norwich - Brian Gunn or Mark Wotte for a manager? Survivors - Barnsley, Southampton and Watford. Saints have played two tough fixtures and played with some desire and purpose and were unlucky not to get at least a point each from our last two games. Whilst our next two home games look tough if we can get 2pts by playing as we have done with the way Wotte is developing their playing method we can look to start getting the 6 wins v. Ipswich (A), Derby (H), Blackpool (A), Charlton (H), Palace (H), Sheff W (A). It's also not inconcievable we can get results draw or win v. QPR (H), Burnley (H), Forest (A). Defeats looked booked for Birmingham (A), Wolves (A). If by the final whistle of the Derby game we haven't won at least one match our fall back options will be decidedly limited but at the moment there is plenty to remain positive about with the changes Wotte's management style appears to be bringing. One caveat I don't understand why McGoldrick stayed on and Saga came off today but he made the right call with dropping Lallana so assume there was something not obvious to the rest of us. It was strange but not quite Burleyesque bizarre.

Exactly my understanding, however, Lowe and his supporters and Crouch and his will have equal opportunity to make a bid for the club as any other investors / bargain hunters. Whilst, the administrator will not share confidentail issues with any of the bidders neither will they pamber to the wishes of the fans. They will act purely in the best interests of the creditors and do their best for the employees. My understanding (if correct) is that if the bids/proposals don't meet the requirements of the creditors or not in their best interests as deemed by the Administrator the club will not be sold as a going concern and broken up to raise as much cash as possible to pay of the debts. It is entirely, possible as well that a buyer(s) will only want to bid for parts of the club i.e. Staplewood/Jacksons Farms/ Stadium (Long term future redevelopement to be bought on the cheap and mothballed). Personally, I remain very very concerned that fans simply view Administration as a get out of jail free card to get rid of Lowe and start again less 10points. The reality is a whole lot more serious and hopefully I am not over dramatising the situtaion to say that it could easily be the end of the line like Woolworths, Lehmans. Bears Stearns, MFI, etc. In fact I suggest the chances are no better than 50/50. If you were a potential buyer even one with deep pockets to buy the club tomorrow from administration would be a very risky proposition and you would need to some how syndicate that risk by dare I say it, shareholders. I'm no expert in these matters and if my understanding of the facts of what could happen are wrong then please correct me but either way I think its important everyone is fully aware of the likely scenarios. Today's trading environment is whole lot different than the more recent examples of clubs going into administration and regardless of Lowe the prospect of hitting the club in pocket through protest coould have far more dire consquences. In fact remove Lowe now and without an investor the fate of this club will be in the hands of the accountants and that won't be pretty especially if HMRC are involved. We may not like it but sometimes dependent on external influences the devil you know is whole lot more nicer than the one you're about to become acquainted with. A lot of you champion Crouch and Corbett as the fans choice people who understand them, a friend no less. On the other hand Lowe and Wilde are seen as untrusted evil collaborators, only interested in themelves, hated and despised like proverbial skates. All I can say never has it been so true to 'Keep your friends close but your enemies closer still'. Lowe will be a pussycat compared to Administrators. United we MUST Stand - Divided we WILL fall and on the toss of a coin maybe for good.

Does make you wonder though how those 50 people feel when they read that Crouch is waving £2m around to invest in a football club instead of investing it closer to home to save their jobs. Many companies are adopting different policies to pull back on production and retain staff until they can ride out this downturn. Having said that Crouch may not have had any choice but this couldn't have been a surprise to him so makes his recent offers of investment a little crass and insensitive to those who have worked for him and now find themselves on jobseekers allowance. Crouch may have many strengths but good PR is not one of them IMO and this again shows a lack of thought on his part. If his offer of £2m was a ruse to shame Lowe and Wilde then I would suggest it has backfired on himself.

Don't know why we are passing judgement just yet as lets face it our full back poistions haven't exactly been our strength in recent seasons. Ian Wright didn't sign for Palace until he was almost 22 and was playing Sunday League football in SE London at the time. Interesting to note two of the managers who have signed Marsh-Brown Martin Jol was manager of the dutch club back in 2004 and Paul Ince signed him for Macclesfield. the number of clubs could indicate he has an attitude problem as oppose to a lack of ability. Bit of grit and aggression maybe what is required.

Robbie, how long have you actually thought about this? Comments above and then below I have mapped out two very realistic plans A and B beyond that all options are exhausted. Plan A 1. Throw all our support behind the team for the next 15 games and with unity and optimism our team may rebuild their lost confidence and acheive those 6 or 7 wins we need for starters. 2. Keep the faith with Lowe, The banks at this stage will not look favourably IMO at a change without significant investment. 3. Assess the situation at the end of the season when the outcomes are known. 4. Survive and remain trading, we retain Lowe. Plan B Relegation and remain trading, Lowe has to resign as the drop in attendances plus the fact the protests to remove him will heighten and the club would undoubtedly fold through further decrease in revenue. So his position would become untenable and it would reflect poorly on him in a professional sense if he stayed IMO. Therefore, recruit and appoint a CEO that is universally accepted by all shareholders to manage the club. Expertise in running a PLC a pre-requisite and a football club a nice to have. Appoint some reputable non-exceutive directors to protect shareholder interest, people like Salz, Dineage (joke!) etc. and Crouch Wilde Lowe Corbett and all the rest remain simply as shareholders. Relegation and administration or survival and adminstration then its up to the administrators and the fans will not have a say in proceedings. The administrators will try and sell the club but that will be dependent on those bidding to buy it and their business cases to manage the club in the future. It may be decided to simply wind it up and sell off its assets, bottom line none of us know and that is why administration must be avoided a bit like Robbies memorable 10 point plan.

Couldn't agree more provided the term 'events' also takes into account all the main protaganists of the past 13 years and any of their closely connected persons. The last thing we want is someone's stooge to be elected to the role of chairman. IMO Mary Corbett would be an unmitigated disaster even in the short term and by her own admission she doesn't want the job long term then someone with that sort of ambition is unlikely to be strong enough to stand up to the pressures of the role even for a week. I would prefer Crouch but only if it was a holding role for a known candidate who has accepted the job but needs say 3 to 6 months to sort out their own affairs/current position before joining us. However, my view remains that we should stick with Lowe, Cowen and Jones as they know the beast and at this juncture with their experience and knowledge of the club represent our best chance of working with our bankers and creditors and avoiding administration. Then after 1 of 3 possible outcomes the time will then be right to decide: 1) Lowe, Cowen and Jones pull the rabbit out of the hat, we stay up and we have cashflows/funding for another season. 2) We go bust and relegation is almost assured. 3) We are relegated The last thing this club needs is a figurehead as a chairman simply installed because of their connections or proud status as a fan. Banks are letting established high street names go to the wall because of their waning support, the recession and the credit crunch. For the shrewd investor the time is now to surely cherry pick some cheap bargains eg Barclays purchase of parts of Lehmans US business and Nomura in the UK. Equally, investors and banks will be well prepared to let well known companies and parts thereof go to the wall and stay there such as Woolies. The parallels between football and the retail sector are quite compelling and in these unprecedented times I think its safe to assume we will see some league clubs disappear from the tables. Lower down the pecking order it seems Chester City could be the first and should we go bust we can only hope we are viewed as a Whittards and not a Woolworths less the unthinkable happens. Therefore, rather than dispute who could be a good chairman why don't we all pack the stadium to the rafters on the 21st feb, forget the protests because now is the time to really get behind the club and show them what a loyal fanbase they have. Please remember the economics of todays trading environment is a million miles from May 2006 and removing your support for Lowe you could be contributing to the clubs downfall and that doesn't make sense as it may have done 3 years ago. Survive, relegation or administration after anyone of these events becomes certain we can debate and protest about who should do what but until then lets just get back to where we were at least at the start of the season. Still all to play for and........ United we should stand and be proud to be a Saint or divided we shall fall. Its time to stop the infighting, petty point scoring and putting up increasingly bizarre what if scenarios. Focus on the club, accept it as it is for the time being and throw your full support behind supporting our bid for Championship survival no more no less. Anything else is a wasted effort and counterproductive and deep down we all know that to be the case as for all the anti-lowe, anti-club stuff there is not one viable plan b to be seen.

Protesters Ponty almost got it right but IMO there is no room for any protest. Take a look at yourselves you will resemble the opening credits to Dads Army if you're not careful. At this rate we will be splitting into 3 factions: 1)The Anti-Lowe Direct Action Group 2)The Anti-Lowe Peace Marchers 3)The Supporters Marching in or marching out and still no plan if your successful. Have any of you considered the consequences of your actions?

Questions that simply can't be answered Yes or No as we need to know the why. Anyway my simplistic responses above. IMO those who simply reply No No No need to consider the situation beyond simple prejudice.

Well done, that is the correct answer and I trust you enjoyed your afternoons research. In business just like SFC its all peaks and troughs. Interesting no one has considered what would happen if they put themselves in Lowe's shoes and genuinely tried to see things from his perspective. If you could understand how you would react to all this moaning and protests without a plan you may get a better answer as to what could happen post admin. As someone has already said there is a lot wrong at SFC beyond Lowe himself so try turning the mirror inward you may find the answer. Any mirror will do Stanley.

Who heads up H Samuel? Ratner is alive and well and doing ok all things considered so please stop your Ostrich act. Actually please carry on your ostrich act its amusing in a repetiitve and reactionary way.

I think you need to think again. Some fans believe Lowe has shafted the club and no doubt Lowe feels he has been subject to some unjust treatment by said fans. Just try and put your self in Lowe's shoes for a minute. Now he knows that football is largely a result driven's business as you slip down the leagues you get an understanding of how many loyal fans you actually have that will support you to the bitter end. A good recent example would be Leicester and Man City. If we got relegated and put into Admin Lowe could build a business case based on the income from that loyal fan base and really put one over his more rabid critics and repay them for the damge they have done to the club and him personally. (Looking at it from his side) If Lowe could buy it post admin with backing from his alledged consortium then surely the dish would be cold enough to deliver some sweet revenge for the ridiculous treatment dished out to him in May 2006 and this season when once again it's proven that the fans only decide they dislike someone when things don''t go their way. (Chelsea fans take note)No massive Lowe out campaign last August and all was quiet around May 2003 so perhaps Lowe felt he deserved some support in the bad times for delivering in the good. I have no idea what his thoughts are but it is wishful thinking in the extreme that he won't seriously consider taking over the club post administration and be capable of putting together the strongest bid to the administrators. If it comes down to 'Lowe's Consortium or Crouch's Wheel Tappers and Shunters Club' who do you think the administrators will go for with business cases based on realistic estimates and not hopeful guesstimates and false dawns. If you were Lowe what would you do? Walk away or turn the screw knowing he can always rely on the diehards and if he delivers as he has in the past the fickle 'only go in the good times' fans will eventually filter back and consign the bitter and twisted to a self imposed exile. I know what I would do If I was Lowe but hopefully there would be a third less 'wilde' way. Whatever happens I'll still be there until the club dies. Bo11ox to Southampton AFC etc. If I'm honest the way some on here have behaved towards the club and those like me with more moderate views about Lowe and the board, it may actually be worth the risk of Lowe getting the club back to himself post administration at least we could get back to talking football and not politics and short of a an investor agreeable to the new consortium there would not be much the anti-Lowe crowd could do except try and force administration No 2 and oblivion but Lowe has proven he can be financially prudent and stick to his guns so that risk would be largely mitigated. Perhaps administration is the way forward hiw about it Up Pahars, Stanley and Mr Holley to name just a few of the obvious suffering from blind hatred and boring us with their diatribe and more aggressive tactics. Won't be much good waving your season ticket in the face of moderate fans then Steve, would it? Blimey I'm talking myself into supporting a Lowe consortium for all the wrong reasons so best we all pipe down.

Exactly but who fell for his promises? Wasn't it Crouch though who thinks he is qualified to be Chairman based on his experience at LFC? That's Lymington and not Liverpool. One thing Lowe should be supported for is the fact he is a one club man. Even Chorley the self styled SISA rep is widely acknowledged as a Man U fan. Couldn't make it up could you, Lowe should have thrown the 30 pieces of silver and not the other way round.

Fans who were in the Northam for the Donny game stated on this forum that there were fans near them who started the anti-Lowe songs at 0-0 half way through the first half. My understanding is they were dealt with by those around them but clearly in the Northam at least the precedent towards the later depressing scenes had already been set. Now if you think I am telling lies the so are those posters who mentioned this issue on here after the game. From where I was you could hear for a short while pockets of 'anti-lowe' songs that never got going until Doncaster scored their first game and, well we all know the rest. It may not have started to the degree it finished at 2 down but that was not my original point. My point was the bad atmosphere was simmering long before it all kicked off and unfortunately there are fans whether we like it or not who actually wants us to lose so they can gain support for their protests or simply to start a bit of trouble. Charlie Wayman was just one poster on here who said he wanted us to lose 5-0 against Swansea so they could prove their point or sentiments to that effect. I'm not trying to rewrite history just confirming to those who wish to act ignorantly towards any eye-witness statements (not just mine) on this forum that despite your's and others protestations there are fans intent undermining the team from the start at the moment. Why? God knows but they are not supporters and never seem happy. Recommend you all do a Chorley and go and support your first love.

Why's that then Steve? Do you enjoy trying to take on an entire block? No doubt a few junior fans are a small price to pay so your nemesis can be removed and your unreasonable expectations to remain unmet by Lord Crouch and Dame Corbett. Can I suggest you reign back on the use of smilies as it make's you look juvenile and actually detracts from the message you are trying to give. I will listen and debate with anyone who holds a view but not with those who mock, abuse or fail to accept that others may hold equally genuine if opposite views. Take Wes Tender, I am poles apart at times with him but there is still some middle ground to be agreed on in our views and is mocking at least is more concealed. It's only the unreasonable and ridiculously over the top 'fringe' that can readily be ignored even if they come furnished with a creative teenage smiley or 6.

Comments above

Even those with a most basic cognitive function would appreciate Nickh is alluding to the current situation and not 6 years ago, otherwise you are even wrong as surely it would have been 83/84.

I agree with Weston on this wholeheartedly and it is totally counterproductive as young professional adults or not it will sow seeds of self doubt and strip them of confidence and make them nervous players and in their eagerness to please to fans will take on to much and make matters worse. Any psychologist will tell you that boys actually don't mentally mature until around the age of 21 and anyone who has bought up a teenage lad will tell you at times it's like bringing up a 5 year old as they seem incapable of learning from their mistakes or capable of thinking of more than one thing at a time. Actually, its worse as a 5 year old will listen and learn where as the older teenager will dismiss most advice in attempt to go through that difficult phase of finding their independence and all the angst that goes with it. Their ability to make poor decisions is well known why do you think insurance premiums are so loaded against them as many at that age can't assess the risks when driving so why should footballers being any different? Their natural talent is just part of becoming a professional and at this age their brains have not fully developed cognitive function. So unless you are prepared to see it form their poistion on the pitch and take into account thier age your rant's are very damaging, fact. I would also say that poor performances are in direct correlation with the mood of the crowd and the increasing anti-lowe hysteria and general hostility towards the board and unhappiness about the club has to have a negative impact on the players. They are going to try harder, take more risks in their honest desire to turn things around and soemtimes as in life that can actually work against you, if the harder you try the greater kicking you get when you you inevitably make more mistakes as you push yourself to/beyond your limits. Fans are deluded if they think all these protests against Lowe even if kept away from the ground are not impacting the players. They are because they will read or hear about it in the media and increasingly as home games they must feel like proverbial 11 christains being thrown to the lions not to mention the other 11 gladiators making sure the lions get a good feed. You older fans will be able to compute you are having a go at Lowe and not the team but the younger players will take it personally and it will psychologically affect their performance regardless of your thoughts to the contrary. If for no other reason its why the demonstration's are so counterproductive and actually contribute more to this club's slide than any decision by the board. Weston Saint, thank for your offer btw to act as a go-between between myself and SG. I didn't respond as I had used my 3 posts and also because a moderator had offered the same service but then did not respond to my email to the site marked for their attention. If the offer still stands I will contact you. Many thanks

Yes, another example of the weather acting arrogantly and making more decisions that don't reflect the unreasonable expectations of a few fans.