Nineteen Canteen

Wes your first paragraph is the most succint and accurate summary of the approach I would support. Given the current economic environment and therefore unlikely approach from interested investors it seems to me the only logical way forward. I do have concerns that regardless of demands the board will not cede to calls for them to step aside or be involved with the recruitment of the independent replacements. Therefore, Crouch should be invited back on the board and if the 3 of them can't prove to the fanbase and eachother that they can work together to the greater good of the club then the rope they're given should be long enough to push for the longer term ideal. The only caveat I would make is that this invitation to help rebuild the club's fortunes goes solely to Crouch and none of his support crew of McMenemy, Corbett and Trant. Reasons for this are that IMO the board needs to be lean in numbers and everyone must have a key and accountable role to play. I don't know what Corbett and Trant did when they were here the first time around and therefore a role this time is even more unlikely. Secondly, I think Crouch will be better for making his own decisions and without the apparent constant referral to McMenemy, if he must he can still seek his counsel in private but personally I think he would be better trusting his own instincts and thought processes. LM has for too long used the media as an axe to grind against Lowe even in the good times and is the sort of lose canon we don't want rattling around the corridors of SMS whilst the other 3 attempt to repair the severe damage that they have all played their part to create. I have never doubted Crouch's credentials as a supporter and I am sure they are no less passionate than my own and for that reason I can accept Crouch could work for the greater good of the club in line with Lowe and Wilde. I honestly, don't get that impression with McMenemy and his past comments have not been made from the same 'passionate fan' angle as Crouch and therefore some of the latter's comments can be forgiven equally as some of the impassioned comments made on this forum. I am concerned about Duncan's comments about the prospect of the big 3 working together but it is the only logical option to healing the rift and taking the club forward. If Duncan proves right then I suspect the 3 of them will be able to work out for themselves the independnet CEO route but it would be nice if the initial soluton could work. If common ground/ general consensus of recent days can be found on this forum then I'm sure they should be able to do so. I also think Duncan suggested that there was no way back for LM (apologies if I have this wrong) which leads me to say (using an oft-quoted phrase from Um pahars) that McMenemy is the busted flush and Corbett and Trant can use their shareholders voting rights at the AGM/EGM. No doubt my comments with regard to McMenemy will inflame a few opinions and I do not belittle or refuse to recognise any of his achievements as manager of Saints. However, that was 25 years ago and for many fans who represent the long term future of this club he is just a name even though he had the opportunity to become a real legend and ambassador as Ted Bates did and for that, McMenemy. sadly only has himself to blame. Any ambassador in any situation effectively has the role of the dipolmat sent overseas to represent his country. Its a role that requires skill in managing relationships, international or otherwise and requires above all else, tact. McMenemy 25 years ago was a great manager but since then he has been am awful ambassador of this club IMO and I don't understand why Crouch uses his counsel quite so much when he should be consulting the likes of Benali and Le Tissier Saints men through and through and with a greater insight into the modern game. Sorry for going off topic but I like to try at least to justify my personal opinions.

I rest my case, goodnight Stanley. Hopefully in the morning the increasing air of goodwill and level headed debate will be back to abuse and petty name calling otherwise, you somedunce you, may need to re-register. Keep going though its interesting watching you unravel admist a desire for us all to support the club and agree a way forward simply beyond Lowe out which hasn't worked Stanley and now all your toys are on the floor. Poor little Stanley and his behavioural issues try and contain your anger. What do you prefer Stanley as you didn't answer my previous questions. Entering a good debate over your views or administering a good kicking when your eloquence (in English) has let you down? Lots of love xxxxx

Stanley above post is an example of an amusing one liner. Try it sometime it will help release the tension. Either that by a puncture repair kit for your doll.

Actually, that's very believable and judging by your comments earlier today about all in or all out then based on this as an example of 'knowing the business' we would be better off with all of them out if there will be destruction anyway within 30 secs. How is a very big question though? Does Leon Crouch do anything independently of LM where the club are concerned?

That made me laugh and he may well have done before he crossed over into his dark malevolent side. Is he for real? If so is one 'person' enough to confirm that the lunatic fringe does exist?

Every Saints fan I talk to thinks you are simply someone with tiny pudenda. Seriously Stanley do you get off on your persistent use of one line insults as you give the impression you are the type of individual who would prefer to use their fists rather than words to fight your corner. Am I right? At the moment all you are doing that there is a tiny minority of you who provide evdience that the lunatic fringe does exist.

Bit strong Stanley isn't it have you tried anger management?

Firstly i think the survival target will be about 49pts. In years when 1 or 2 teams are relegated very early on poor points total, the points to survive the 3rd relegation spot is high as last year. However in years when the battle is closer the points total drops accordingly. Remember there was quite a bit of analysis done on this in the past and unlike last year at least two relegation spots will be undecided going into the last game so again I think another 5 wins and 3 draws should be enough. 5 wins are achievable from: Blackpool (a), Charlton (h), Watford (a), Palace (h), Sheff Wed (a), Forest (a) 3 draws or even the odd unexpected win from: Ipswich (a), Derby (h), QPR (h), Burnley (h). Very difficult games most likely to come away with nothing but draws not impossible: Cardiff (h), Birmingham (a), Wolves (a) The most important thing is that in defeat the team show the same determination as they have recently and the fans show some patience as the biggest chances for those 5 wins come in our last 7 games. The players and manager can't afford to give in and we can't afford to give up. 18 pts from a possible 39 plus Birmingham are wobbling and we could nick a point at St Andrews and we could easily earn victories against Ipswich, Derby or QPR so not inconceiveable we could win 22 - 24pts and finish on 55. Approach every game as a must win and play with that mind set but the best opportunities won't come until after Birmingham. I'm sure that is what Pedant Saint mean't with his everygame is a must win, comment.

Wes, I think we are broadly in a agreement and your outline plan above is very plausible and well written. I have added my comments above. I do have one caveat and it concerns your response to Franks post below. You seem to place great store in the fact you did not support Lowe from the outset and the whole plc debate. The reasons I say you place great store in this as its not the first time I have read similar comments from yourself and to try to seek some misplaced pride or what could be interpretated as classic after timing will not be helpful as I'm sure there have been many things since that we have not agreed with, that have turned out ok and vice versa. In any event I really don't think Frank was alluding to you as there are far more obvious examples with a one track 'hot head' agenda but without an iota of an idea what to do if their agenda paid off and were asked to formulate a change in direction as you have detailed above.

The last paragraph is very pertinent. If I was queuing to get into the stadium and found myself for example behind Lowe, Crouch or Wilde perhaps taking some time to experience match day with the paying punters I would be fairly certain I would recognise them instantly. Can't say that about any of the Saints Trust big guns - how difficult would it be to circulate a few flyers with a picture of your Trust reps and what they can do for you. Even your local councillors take the trouble to do this but having said that they are dependent on the electorate to vote them in and can't simply proclaim themselves representatives unlike the Sainst Trust or I presume the SISA, where there is no I in elected.

Absolutely, but until that is possible I think Lowe should stay. Time to flex that advertising muscle Wes and search for a CEO and magician who may be able to take this club forward with the blessing of the 3 wise men.

Sorry ESB but this action is to create further discord amongst the fanbase and is without an agenda beyond Lowe out and no doubt a few enjoy the publicity and even that has all but disappeared. IF, IF they come up with a Plan B backed by somebody with more clout than a 16 year old boy I may listen but they are doing more damage than Lowe can do at the moment and of that i am almost certain. Why do you think Charlton fans aren't protesting or Norwich fans are semingly happy with Gunn? I'm sorry if you think I'm offensive as actually I am concerned and ultimately embarrassed by these protests and hence i get a bit angry as i was hoping they were going to stop after last Saturday. 3 protests and have they met the arbitraitors yet?

Good post and many things which I can agree with except if Lowe goes they all must go and I still think bringing private conversation that were not intended to be made public by one party is wrong. If the tables were turned Duncan and someone recounted a private conversation they held with you which reflected badly on yourself I'm assuming you would be angry and feel it's a punch below the belt. Nothing wrong with fighting your corner but can I suggest we stick to the rules laid down by the Marquis of Queensbury. Don't alienate the middle ground.

I can't be arsed to kill the club from the outside in, as Frodo Baggins and his merry men seem intent to do. The club has seen a recent turnaround in performances, Wotte is giving us a strong and positive message so what purpose is this going to serve apart from boost a few local florists in a tough market. Can i suggest instaed of wasting money on roses they give all their money to Frodo who can than pay a business consultant aka Gandalf the Grey to give them a plan b as oppose to a dream. I'm sorry but we have some tragic and deluded fans. I wonder if Charlton fans are doing the same or perhaps you would like Brian Gunn for manager? Just turn up on Saturday and encourage others to do the same. Truly, truly ridiculous and 'You don't know what you're doing'.

Simple case of supply and demand. I'm sure you can work out the consequences and btw its nothing to do solely with Lowe's stewardship of the last 9 months. The previous two years did the damage, relegation didn't help before that but its easy to make a case we would not be on the edge as we are today if the intervening two years hadn't occured.

Agree with you on Sturrock and if he gets the boot from Plymouth - Radio Hampshire should employ him as their match summariser and replace Armstrong who's stock answer to any difficult question is 'well I wouldn't know about that'. Dave Jones is a great manager and a decent man who I think deserved better treatment than he got considering the circumstances. I would welcome back Hoddle long before I welcomed back Strachan. He was ok up to the cup final but thereafter he was equally culpable in his own departure and has since become a self styled parody of Ferguson in an annual two horse race. He gives the impression he is a big time football manager but there are far better working in Scotland with cash available less than Strachan's salary I should imagine. Dave Merrington would be entertaining only for calling everyone by their wrong name. Oh and no surprise but Lawrie McMenemy would be as welcome as a dose of dysentry on your once in a lifetime holiday in the Virgin Is. Solely because of his post managerial exploits.

Nick I agree completely with what you say. However, as I said I think the falling out Lowe and Duncan had in private that Duncan then chose to make public has probably damaged any hope of reconciliation IMO.

Does Jones have another job?

It cost the government £200,000 for their away day so can only assume we would have received a portion of that. Probably 90% though was on peak time first class rail travel.

I still don't understand why he takes so long to produce half yearly accounts;)

It's a nice thought Nick but my guess that is someway down the agenda of the regular board meetings. If some fans who are staying away out of pure prejudice continue do so then they may find in years to come the only way to get their Saint fix will be to a council funded museum under the guidance of one local curator. I think both sides need to understand the importance to each other but only one chose to make public the details of a private coversation for their own political capital and I guess that burnt the bridges tbh for good.

In response to JFP be careful those comments might be classed as intimidating. CS don't expect to hear anything from Trant, he never said anything when he was here and who can forget that memorable press call outside SMS when he stood just behind and to the right of Crouch not saying a word probably concentrating on making sure he moved Crouch's lips in sync with the usual soundtrack. If Duncan is suggesting an interim solution of removing Lowe and replacing him with Crouch then I think we should most definitely keep with Lowe as I suggested on the attendance thread and discussed at length with UP and Wes Tensder. The last thing we need is a temporary chairman who will change direction everytime the some fans go for a walk together or a few vociferous voices on this forum start to influence the direction of the club after every false start or undermine recovery of its vital signs. Love him or loathe him Lowe has set out his stall to cut costs with both hands tied behind his back and the last thing we need is someone trying to gamble and deviate from that plan. As for the missing fans, well they won't comeback until the club's fortunes are reversed on the pitch and Crouch's track record in that department isn't exactly consistent with an upward curve until the last game of the season. So if that is Duncan's plan why change, it's not a personality contest and most definitely not a beauty contest and based on Crouch's previous short tenure then we may as well give the job to a professional puppet. Duck Lover Keith Harris or Roger D'Courcey and Nookie Bear with his rolling eyes should please Um Pahars.

Read as many of these posts as I could whilst ignoring the usual inflammatory guff from the usual suspects. Bottom line is Duncan was misguided at best to post the details of a presumably private conversation that when read has quite a serious accusation levelled at Lowe but equally seriously there is a suggestion that Corbett couldn't cut it her role further evidenced by the 'due diligence' fiasco on Wilde. The club needed strong directors exec and non-exec and there will always be times when things can become heated and IMO its a sign of weakness if that makes you feel intimidated - it shouldn't be the case but its a fact of life and like in politics its a sad fact of life women are still in the minority of the decision and policy makers in all walks of life and need to be even tougher than their male counterparts. (I'm not saying that is right but IMO it is remains largely true) Now its out there Duncan should clarify the context of this quote as the accusation or connatation is serious and I doubt he would welcome a private message being posted in the same manner if he was the alledged subject of such talk. I agree with NickH a certain amount of poetic licence by Duncan and/or Corbett was used but either way the comments must be clarified or preferably retracted. Having said that, with the greatest of respect Jonah I don't know what you hoped to achieved by starting this thread and perhaps your purpose would have been better served by private message to Duncan or registering your complaint with the forum owners under the 'Acceptable terms of use Policy'. If you know Duncan's comments to be untrue then I expect you may have been able to deal with the damaging nature of this issue without broadcast in the public domain. 2 wrongs generaly don't make a right. Sad state off affairs by one all to be honest and proves why there needs to be one very big broom through the corridors of power in SMS and other members of staff or closely connected people where it can be proven have tried to seek advantage for their cause or undermine the current board with such dressed up, emotive rubbish. Duncan surely a historian needs to be balanced in his view of history and get the story from both sides?

So very true for some, but without out it?