Nineteen Canteen

Shows that even in the real world they are as aloof, plastic and snooty as they are when they are 'serving' our in flight needs. Depending where they are on the plane they either lick it or kick it in my experience and the most self serving bunch of people you are likely to meet.

Are they? Who took off the gloves first and who is trying to act in the best interests of a company that is clearly on the edge. There is a lot of bleating and woe is me according to Duncan, from the staff at BA but are those staff anymore privleged than other low income earners in the South East? Affordable housing is not BA's issue, it's the governments. In any event the inevitable apologies are meaningless and these strikes as always are done to cause the maximum publicity for the Unions and bad press for the company and there is only ever one winner - the owners and employees of their competitors. Duncan and his cohorts are simply shooting themselves in their foot I'm afraid and if they are genuinely sorry they move the strikes back a month in the interests of public relations and the long term survival of your employer.

Shall we all don our overalls and move to North Korea? BA this, BA that. Do you notice its never about how the staff have worked harder or increased their flexibility to support their company in troubled times. Same as Royal mail as the posties who have done 5 hours work on a 8 hour shift simply up and leave unwilling to help elsewhere. They talk about finances and putting money aside for trouble times and yet they seem happy to accept their non-contributory pensions where the company is doing just that on behalf of every individual setting money aside for the future. Make the pensions contributory and give them all a 5% payrise most of them won't work out the implication reading TV Quick and Bella or OK and Hello if they turn left at the door.

Duncan, I think the tabloid press could have worked it out for themselves as I did a long time ago after my now infamous but amusing ITN misassumptiom. Is it true that BA have taken this to the courts because they believe the ballot only targetted those employees likely to say yes to a strike? If so why would Unite have not included all employees in the interests of democracy and saving BA's dwindling customer loyalty?

Johnny you have a point with regard to the staff and anybody in this day and age who believe they can protect or improve their jobs through strike action is very misguided. Doing it at such a disruptive and important time of year for families the damage to BA could easily be irrevocable. Like the Royal mail strikes there are other socio-economic pressures at work with regard to airlines and Virgin cabin crew are far from happy with their situation but it is better to look after themselves until such time as they can influence change or move on. However, in BA's defence unlike Britsh Leyland they do actually have a good product and a perceived mark of excellence not something you could attribute to names likes Maxi, Allegro, Marina, Princess, Ambassador etc. Now was that a roll of honour worth fighting for?! I have not had the pleasure of hearing the Unite spokesperson yet but if he or she is the same mould as Crow, the verbal oik from Royal Mail, Scargil and the rest, they will come across with one thing in common. They will complain about how hard done by they are and they will offer their apologies to the public and try to convince us they had no choice but at no time will they acknowledge the social and economic changes that may mean a major change in the way the businesses are run and the resultant staff redundancies or salary realignments required. It always seems to me they want to protect their cosy world but not move on or recognise the need to change and prefer to push the company and ironically themselves to the ultimate conclusion they are all trying to avoid. With the employment laws that we now have in this country, Unions are a complete waste of time and in most cases staffed by beligerent left of left wingers who love a bit of air time and a chance to shout with out listening to newsreaders. I like BA as a company but frankly if the staff want to support Unite then they do not deserve our patronage. Striking has never been the answer and never will be and if this is carried through it may be to late for BA's image because of the obvious angst it has already caused their most valuable commodity. I hope a bit of self imposed financial hardship will result in a reduction of salaries long term just to keep BA viable. That would be fair justice and maybe get employees to lift their head's from their weekly celebrity glossies and open their eyes to actually what is going on in the real world.

Daren I stand by everything I said at the time and I never made it personal against your Mum and there were and still are other ways of raising money for charity if you still feel strongly about it. I never took the **** out of you merely responded to your insults and complete refusal to accept that the club may have had a reasonable policy to stem the floodgates. In any event I never showed any prejudice towards cancer or those impacted by the disease and as you well know my wife is in remission for Breast Cancer and had a masectomy 3 years aqo so I know a lot about what you went through and others but neither do I expect anything from anybody. we just got on with it. That's life and now I know how you feel I guess we should simply put each other on ignore. Good luck in any event.

Wes, I don't think I said it was acceptable and also acknowledged it's all forms of cheating but the dive, hand ball etc should all be done in the eyes of the officials and players who attempt these antics can expect to be punished or hope to get away with it. Cheating in the form MLT decided to follow, even as a one off is devious and underhand and if a faked dive is not in the spirit of the game where does deliberately setting out to change the start of a game by deliberately giving away possession for your team and for your own personal gain, register on your scale? I can agree that if someone can cheat in sport then they may have a predilection to cheat again elsewhere. The difference though between the fake dive and deliberate handball the players I suspect rarely cross the line thinking that is what they will do today and in the heat of the moment forget themselves. MLT crossed the white line that day knowing exactly what he was going to do. Perhaps that is the major difference, MLT's action were premeditated whereas Henry's for example were not. Premeditated is perhaps where I draw the line Wes and that is unforgiveable.

...

IMO Mick Channon is the only true sporting legend we have had the pleasure to support and one who has reached far beyond the realms of Southampton. He qualifies on all levels with regards to playing at the highest levels, personality and humility and achieving something in racing that may not be equalled for years to come. Everyone else is purely a local hero.

MOG that was because I questioned his role in Pinnacle and the level of judgement he exhibited. IMO I feel vindicated in my assessemnt at the time and far more venerable posters than I took the same stance. If it was before that then I don't remember but suspect if I did it would have been along the lines of all those connected with the club past and present pulling in the same direction in an attempt to save the club before administration. Again it was just an opinion of which I think you'll agree I am entitled without the resultant personal abuse, a comment not directed at yourself.

Why would you suggest such a thing. Purely, it is down to opinion. I was as big as fan as MLT as the next Saints fan prior to his admission so like his lost business contract why should you need to be mentally ill to withdraw your support. Are the sponsors who withdrew their support from Tiger Woods yesterday mentally ill because they don't agree with his off course conduct? No they just have a set fo values that they prefer their sporting stars to mirror and in that regard I am no different, not mentally ill.

Taking a dive for the team Wes is one thing deliberately trying to alter the start of the game for your own personal gain and those of your fellow collaboraters is another thing entirely and altogether more sinister and under hand. Same applies to Henry or every cynical foul or hand ball that earns a booking it's a all a from of cheating or acting outside the spirit of the rules but all can be punished by the officials on the day. Trying to alter the start of a game for financial game may be as innocent as smoking a bit of weed but whose to say it can't lead to far worse crimes such as Cronje's heroinesque levels of idiocy and in any event it is far worse than any dive simulation, foul or deliberate hand ball as they are there for all to see and punish accordingly. MLT tells us he stopped after this one off but what would have happened if he had made that kick into touch? The worse thing for any gambler IMO is to win your first bet. MLT should have kept his mouth shut if he didn't want a reaction so please stop trying to shoot the messenger or put MLT up on a pedastal he may no longer deserve and I in turn will stop contributing to the debate.

I said arguments and whilst some may be a bit shy on here in the face of some heated responses plenty of people agree with me. Dubal Phil told us MLT had lost a contract over his admission why would that be if they did not dispute he was a legend or the betting scam did not bother them? Your argument is flawed with regard to Ted Bates as the dissenters need a reason to dispute whether a man is a local hero or not and clearly they may struggle to find any ammunition against him. Some people are above debate unfortunately you cannot accept that MLT is not one of them.

Its in the Arts thread - use the search function. If you read Rory's latest post on his top 5 albums then you'll know where I was coming from. There wouldn't be enough room in pseuds corner. Interesting debate on R5L earlier even if it got hijacked by the stereotypical football oiks who tried to defend the likes of Best's and Worthington's off field antics and that Woods is entitled to do what he likes afterall 'have you seen the women is knocking about with' Yawn. At the end of the day the sports star can make their own choices but if it contravenes the image they have built up for themselves they have to accept the pain of their actions like loss of sponsorship or business deals or loss of support etc. It was left to Lord Coe to talk about role models and the importance of the way you conduct your life both on and off the pitch, your longevity in your chosen sport and the level of competition you faced. Therefore, I think we should conclude that true sporting legends compete at the highest level globally and for many that would be the Olympics and for footballers and cricketers many successful international and test caps respectively. Channon is a true Sainst legend and one that transcends football because of his subsequent achievements. MLT cannot hold a candle to the acheivements of Giggs and although he competed in a major league in never was tested at an international or european club level and can only ever be classed as a local hero and perhaps a maverick/flawed genius in the vein of a Best, Worthington or Bowles type character. His book is hardly a testament to being a role model for todays young footballers and humilty rather than arrogance is perhaps another mark of a true legend. The 40 odd pages of fan's 'tributes' in MLT's book was lazy and ill conceived in my opinion and smacked of arrogance unlike any other sporting book I have read before or since. So what makes a sporting legend well a recognisable sport in the truest sense of the word which removes golfers, drivers, snooker and darts players and after that I would defer to Lord Coe. At least we can conclude that unfortunately at this club we have had very few genuine sporting legends (as oppose to local heros) and that is purely down to our size and pulling power more than anything else IMO.

Now you mention the Sir Bobby Charlton incident you may be right as i have some vague recollection about it but then that goes to prove how a distant perception in this instance can overlook minor issues. No doubt had he been a director of Saints we would be well aware of any irregularity and maybe local bias can have a positive and a negative impact. I think legends can make mistakes and be forgiven especially minor off the field incidents but admitting to cheating whilst actually playing no matter how minor in some peoples eyes is simply wrong in mine and is insulting to your fans, your profession and your team mates. Still one man's meat is another man's poison and comes back to the essence of the debate. What makes a sporting legend and can it be actually quantified. Elsewhere it has been alluded on the MLT in Dubai thread that MLT lost a contract because of his admission and today we hear Tiger has lost a sponsor because of his infidelity and we can only assume family values are important to that sponsor and we can only make assumptions as to why MLT lost his contract that he allegedly spoke about that night in Dubai. If I could bottle what makes a sporting legend it would have to be where there are no dissenting arguments against the label and complete agreement. In our local world it would for me be Bates unequivocally, then Channon and I can appreciate why Paine should be on the list although his playing days were very much during my infancy and so difficult for me to relate whereas Bates' influence has permeated through the club through more than 1 generation. Elsewhere it would be the likes of Redgrave, Coe, Bolt, Lance Armstrong, Ali, Giggs, Gower, Willis, Vivian Richards, Pele, Moore, Brooking to name just a few that spring to mind.

One in the eye for Sports Psychology doubting anyone can train mental strength. Internationals can train amd improve their technical ability but I genuinely believe they can all score a penalty with the regularity of MLT but it is the intangibles that make the difference not the technique at this level. I would venture its a nonsense that our alloted penalty takers at international level are flawed technically in taking a penalty but i wouldn't be quiet as pompous in my assertions over a reasoned argument of another poster.

Hence why I am trying to give it a Saints angle as I am suspended from the lounge etc for challenging a poster with regards 'popular music'. A bit sad really.

I don't disagree with Cavendish's sporting and pure physical achievement and also Jessica Ennis' for that matter who had to retrain for the long jump from scratch because of her ankle injury and both would have been worthy winners. The problem is they are in what would be classed minorty or lesser sports in terms of media coverage other than the Olympics and in a public vote were always going to lose out to the Man U fanbase and petrol heads ignorant to actual sporting achievement. That said it is 'Sports Personality' in this instance and the phone in today goes another level to the term legend and the focuses on the unravelling of Tiger Woods because of his infidelity. Does that make his sporting achievements any the less? Closer to home whatabout our own legends. Ted Bates is unchallenged and so is Channon IMO but the rest? It will be good to listen to the debate abd whether it can actually be quantified. Personally, I think you have to be the whole package from being a sporting great in your own field and how you conduct yourself both on and off it during and after your career just like Sir Bobby Charlton and maybe even Ryan Giggs.

Just to say if you have the opportunity you may want to listen to the R5L debate at 9am this morning on what makes a sporting legend. Is it pure ability? Personality? Their actual sport? Is it affected by their past misdemeanours? Is it simple bias? How many Man U fans voted for Giggs last night or is it recognition of a model professional in the mould of Sir Bobby Charlton? Should be interesting given some debates we often get involved with on this forum regarding the use of the word legend.

Oh dear, did you not just ask another poster to debate like an adult? Stop being so pompous my opinion may not be given with such a superior air as you or as eloquent but nonetheless the points are clearly made and IMO reasonable and very few people have so far convinced me I am wrong on all my points. You in paticular have entrenched my views as someone who doesn't believe sports pschology has an important role to play in sport in helping competitors to cope with pressure and increase their mental strength as well as training develops their physical abilities. At international level MLT can do neither IMO but will concede HCDAJFU at club level. May I suggest the following book from The FA learning Official Guides series. Psychology for Football Page 129 talks in detail about the importance of Imagery Training and the ability to image a positive outcome is a crucial principle. Players who visualise missing the target maybe because of their last miss or a previous team mates are more likely to make a mistake in their own execution. Imagery training gets players to focus on their last performance / successful outcome and to shut out other negative images, etc MLT cannot teach the likes of Lampard, Rooney or Gerrard any new physical skills but I'm sure they could learn from the psychology of sport. Although, not perhaps in Rooney's case, he may need someone from the Durrell foundation.

Daren you don't debate you chide and bully and feed off the inevitable reaction. Nice comment again on mental illness if you want to play the 'lets belittle serious illness' game then where shall we start? Your pathetic prejudice doesn't hurt me Daren, not least because it's wildly inaccurate but it may affect many others on this forum. To think you use to get upset when I once used the word cancer. Using double standards again Daren to suit your agenda? If I remember I used 'cancer' to describe IMO the way McMenemy acted in and around the club at the time and you got all shirty about it because you thought I was being harsh on McMenemy and that I had no concept how insulting that word was to him and others who made read my post and were suffering from the illness and you informed me and those who read it, how your Mum was terminally ill with the disease and then we had the whole shirtgate debate where the routes of your hatred of me really lie I guess. As far as I am aware 'manic depressive' does not have an additional meaning as the word 'cancer' and you Daren clearly have no idea how damaging ridiculing mental illness can be, especially when you try to target someone who you think may be suffering from a certain condition? Seems you are an equally hateful individual as you see me being and maybe a tad 'sick' yourself. Anyway enough of that, it's amazing how quickly a dose of Swiss chemotheapy sorted out that particular illness, just ask him to buy a ticket. We can only guess McMenemy's reaction but i wish I had been there but in this case IMO actions spoke louder than words and whose opinion on McMenemy has been vindicated in hindsight? No doubt we both wish all cures were that simple. Back on track nice to see Dave Jones win the battle of the ex-Saints managers earlier on. A decent man who has quietly got on with his job and at times in trying circumstances and without the bizarre wit and comment of Strachan who no doubt will be looking for some married players in the transfer window. Apparently that's an important weapon in a players armoury at least at Boro.

To be fair Delldays that could apply to just about every thread on here since inception. Nowadays though there are far fewer alleged ITKers and that has increased the level of speculation. Apart from the obvious answer does anyone actually know how this is being financed?

And into the Solent you fall Daren. A subjective matter ( which I have never disputed) and you claim to be right, or right about me being wrong and my general stupidity and my position as being brainless. I guess this would predispose me of having less than low intelligence as you boldly seem to believe you are always right. You must live a life under a little misapprehension, a bit like a neutered dog, unaware why you lack penetrating thoughts. I'm not going to stop posting as I enjoy sitting on top of the cliffs of the moral high ground watching you drift further into the channel of bile and detritus caused by the erosion of your arguments through personal insults initated as always by yourself. I am of low intelligence? Compared to many you are absolutely right but not as low as the plankton drifting in the channel that I am currently watching. I can't even accuse you Daren of being a single cell amoeba as they even have the ability to change shape.

Daren 'I am right, on a completely subjective issue' Wheeler. Blimey, if you concede any more moral ground you'll be standing atop the Needles. Keep it up.