Nineteen Canteen

I don't know but it is odd that it's such a round number.

Oh and before it get's mentioned - there goes 19c having a dig at another Lowe basher.

Predictable, 4 years of only having to worry about 1 team beating you and IMO a bit of dummy spitting at Saints plus the increasingly odd press conferences over the years I wouldn't have been clamouring to employ him and Southgate was hardly a disaster this season 1 point off the automatics. IMO Strachan has built himself up in the image of the likes of Clough and Ferguson and is but a mere shadow of these greats but some people believe his rhetoric. Bizarre sacking and more bizarre appointment.

Given their foreign policy perhaps their anthem should be 'Wherever I lay my troops'

It is very evocative and trying not to be to parochial about it , it reminds me so much of the good things of Hampshire and its rolling downlands especially to the north and the villages of the Test Valley and the Candovers. In any event it certainly evokes for me the rolling countryside of Southern England but I have no idea if that is what the composer intended for all I know he was probably a Yorkshireman!

Not sure if this piece of 'how good am I' came from the chapter you mention but as far as blowing your own trumpet it was fairly impressive. 'Why do I know more than other people? Why, in general, am I so clever? I have never pondered over questions that are not really questions. I have never wasted my strength. I have no experience. for instance, of actual religous difficulties.' He then goes on in this extract to talk about the crassness of God as a solution and how he is quite unacquainted with atheism which I found a contradiction but presumably he is suggesting if you are so sure something doesn't exist how can you be labelled as such? Tbh Benjii I am only scratching the surface of some of these philiosphers at the moment but this guy would make Brian Clough look shy!

Correct and that's what Pancake in particular has been discussing over the previous 249 posts. It is the ultimate dilemma with absence of proof whichever side of the fence you sit, unless you're agnostic and are sitting on the the fence waiting to join the winning side. So what makes some take that leap of faith and others unable to do so? Agnostic is no bad thing IMO provided you try to develop yourself within some moral compass. It's a bit like supporting Saints in the JPT. I believe they shoudln't be in it and would be happy if they get knocked out during the week but if they go and win and win through to the final my lack of faith would have been proved wrong and I can join the Wembley party!

I posted the fact he had been nominated a few week ago and I think it was in the businesses under £15m (or similar) turnover award where Begbies was one of two nominations! Not much of a contest tbh considering tne number of companies that must have gone to the wall these past 12 months - not many rescued as you say Duncan and this may have been down more to luck on Begbie's side than judgement IMO also. I agree wholeheartedly about your summary of Pinnacle and it remains disappointing that two leading 'Saints' have remained awfully quiet about their role other than some 'straight bat, forward defensive' replies that we could have written for them, once again all in my less than expert opinion.

I think this song is very emotional and for me is more 'lump in the throat' than hairs stand on end but nonetheless a great choice. Similarly, 'The Lark Ascending' by Vaughan Williams I find moving and the Hymn,'I Vow to Thee My Country'. When I married my wife many moons ago we were lucky to have an internationally renowned organist play at our wedding who liked to use the organ in our local church. He agreed to play us out to Widor's 'Toccata' and played by an expert it is without equal. The occassion sense of pride and that music thumping through your chest was the happiest and proudest moment of my life and the fact, even now, when I think about that time, the hairs begin to tingle it must be testament to the music and perhaps of course the momemt. Mind you the congregation hung around and didn't leave until the piece was finished and then gave him a standing ovation whilst we stood outside on our own with the photographer. It was a fantastic moment and being ignornat had no idea just how good this bloke was, an amazing talent but very ordinary man. BTW - contemporary wise - Great Gig in the Sky - Pink Floyd, Fake Plastic Trees - Radiohead - The Drugs Don't Work - Verve and finally Womans Work - Kate Bush. Not anthems maybe but songs that make your hairs stand on end or move you to your core even in your darkest moments.

Verbal you have been lecturing me on my posting style for months I have commented not lectured, on one of MLG's.

At 3-1 what was their glaring miss like? Merrington on the radio said he couldn't believe the player didn't score but i accept he is occassionally prone to the odd exaggeration although he is an institution and I wouldn't want anyone else.

Massive mistake playing Gobern full stop IMO. All I can say not having seen him play this season he must be showing Pardew a lot more than he showed in teh games i saw him play last season when he generally made Carlton Palmer look co-ordinated. Tonights game can be summed in 3 phases: 1) I don't think our heart is really in it the Cup and it would be a disaster to go on a cup run and key players get injured so we fail to avoid relegation comfortably. I think that showed in the first half listening to Solent and regardless of the obvious fan friendly rhetoric from Pardew. 2) Dodgy start to the 2nd half and a player of real class at this level kills the game and then Antonio (no need to start with Papa again IMO) puts it beyond doubt... 3) Cruise and switch off mode and nearly get caught with our pants down and the nightmares of Leeds and Tranmere loomed large. Oh and can we stop pretending that Lloyd James can deliver crosses and take corners. Merrington sounded less than complimentary about his crosses tonight and apart from the MK Dons game where he put in an assist I should think his ratio is something like 1 in 10. We need an acknowledged RB to match harding on the left as Thomas isn't the solution either IMO. Good to be in the hat for the next round but I dread the likes of Connolly, Antonio, Lambert, Lallana, Jaidi, Schneiderlin, Hammond, Davis and Harding getting bad injuries. 1 we could cope with but 2 or 3 and it starts to look a problem, we have a big squad but not many you would be happy to see come in and replace these players. Lets give Charlton a bye next week!

You could have elaborated on a few examples that you felt were particularly wrong and assured us there were many others and provided links to follow up. How many people do you think read your near page of examples? Unfortunately, your post whilst relevant was lost through the lack of your own input.

Wes, there are times that I genuinely and surprisingly at times believe we could have good night in my local sinking a few pints of Doom Bar in a very agreeable setting. Couldn't agree with you more and a great post if I may so.

No I didn't, is the simple answer to your question Teddy. To be honest I expected the usual comments but that doesn't stop me being honest in my opinions, not controversial IMO. It has been a rewarding and educational read and there are cleary some notable theologian's who really know what they are talking about and others who just speak well from uneducated personal experience/opinion and both compliment each other. That said it's disappointing some feel they can't articulate their views either learned or experienced and resort to the most obvious plagiarism. I think every view has been well received no matter how lofty the knowledge base and given the general self-deprecating nature of the thread it's a pity some don't feel capable of adding their own thoughts to the debate instead of relying on cut and paste.

Correct Draino I didn't but I think I put a lot of effort into trying to explore what my faith is and should be over a 2-3 year period. Hopefully throughout this thread I have mentioned that some things were comforting for want of a better of word but there were also many things I found unsettling and not answered satisfactorily. The couple I mention in another post who befriended us, started after a while to feel like they were trying to indoctrinate us other than just simply be our friends similar to RedandWhite91's story, so for me this act of healing was the end. It was a culmination of a growing sense of uneasiness, the last straw and I simply wanted to get out, so I did. In football parlance it was the end of a long and difficult season with more downs and up and this healing was the 46th game of the season and faith in religion failed to keep us up, so a few fans walked away. I have not written off religion as I admire the strength, courage and most importantly the sense of peace and calm others seem to get from it. However, in my experience there are some who seem intent on suffocating your path to enlightenment with rigid rules and trying to take more than you and your family can give. I also accept that I may have just had a bad experience but I doubt we could have found a better vicar than the chap we had many discussions with. I really liked him but couldn't deal with his answers or most of his entourage. Chistianity has an image problem IMO and as alluded by others you can be labelled a freak or treated with caution for attending church. I know I was by some friends and colleagues at the time and I sensed i was being treated differently because I attended a 10 week Alpha Course to try and improve my knowledge? Why? Probably because they ignorantly label every christain as some wacky American happy clappy Evangelist or every Muslim as some fundamentalist extremist and there doesn't seem to be an acceptable middle ground where we can be 'cool' with religion, if we believe or not. If I am honest the image of being a regular church goer was a problem for me not because of my own issues but because of how others treated me. Old friends retreated with suspicion whereas new ones tried to drag you in for want of a better term but that's how it felt. I wanted to develop my faith and my life to stay pretty much the same but that didn't seem possible. Hope that puts things into a greater context. I did not walk off in some head swinging huff at a one of event. If I was like that I would have walked out in the first 5 minutes of my Alpha Course when I was asked to reach out to a bunch of strangers and sing a happy clappy 'warm up' song - mind you the urge was overpowering!

A 3-2 win hanging on by the skin of our teeth - perhaps the leap is not so wide! A couple of years ago I remember dipping into a book in the local library that seemed to suggest that even at the edge of science a certain amount of acceptance of the unknown is required. A couple of things that struck a chord was that a computer program of only a few lines could be generating the stars the galaxies and our noses or words to that effect. Possible? I have no idea but it struck a thought provoking chord. A well know scientist was also quoted in the book as saying that when you die you will be instantly resurrected into the dying days of the universe in an unknown eternity of existence. At least that is what I thought he was alluding to as to get your head around it required a leap of faith! Sorry it's sketchy but it's probably better to talk about your own interpretations, knowledge and experience as oppose to simple cut and paste.

Pancake, that for me is the whole crux of the matter. I want to believe but I can't take that enormous leap of faith despite making in my opinion a worthy attempt at trying. The question works both ways and it is the ultimate dilemma.

I agree 100% with that last comment Phil and a thought provoking post. The leap of faith from the musings of some worthy scribes to 'God' is a difficult one but some of those writings are actually a pretty decent way to live your life and if we took existentialism to its natural conclusion (in my uneducated opinion) wouldn't we have a from of anarchy? Seek First to Understand - can also be the path of vilification in my experience as the majority don't always appreciate their faith being tested.

Not at all, Rupert thought it was a bit of a mouthful.

Hypo I will always listen to your advice and anybody else who I respect based on their posts. On this occassion I chose not to follow it which in hindsight was maybe wrong in this instance but if I just followed your advice all the time I would have to change my username to Hypochondriac 2 and some of my opinions would never see the light of day! FWIW I think Daren is a touch hypocritical about my suggested lack of sensitivity when he has been playing up on my problems to such an extent that it now far exceeds any wrong doing he feels I have meted out on him.

Or I simply didn't agree with your advice Hypo? Are you always right about everything?

Well I have just spent a very engrossing hour pouring over the posts on this thread. It's almost to everyone's credit that I have either been educated for example on my novice understanding of existentialism or the idea that the bible should be viewed not so much as rule book but I guess a 2000 year old self help book. Susan Jeffers is older than I thought! I have come away probably still agnostic and waiting for the 'bolt of lightening' that will eradicate my inability and complete the leap of faith but as posters have pointed out there are in the meantime some valuable teachings in the bible that make a very good moral code by which to lead your life without thinking about your belief in god. As I learned existentialism has a rainbow of concepts and at the other end of the spectrum from where I started we have Kierkegaard the religious moralist who will be my next port of call once I've made futile attempts at understanding the views of Sartre, Camus and Nietzsche ( who I'm finding to be a bit of big head to be honest!) Apologies, I haven't responded to every post or acknowledged posters by name for their thoughts that I mention above and those I have taken on board but not referred to. I will mention RedandWhite91 just to say I did read your post and was sorry to read of your illness and I can completely understand your reaction but in my experience your level of belief depends on the friends and advisors you have in life. Perhaps you just made a bad choice of friend. FWIW, one of the many reasons I left the church after really immersing myself in it for a few years and trying to rationlise it's teachings we were 'befriended' by a similar couple to us with a young family and without going into to much detail our experience wasn't that dissimilar to yours. However, in our case we accepted an invite to a fortnight's holiday with them. We lasted a week as it felt like an exercise in brain-washing and a chance to cleanse our souls in accommodation that would make a kennel look plush. Why do some devout followers have to adopt the hair shirt approach. Personally, I like my self-catering cottages to have some basic home comforts and soft furnishings! Anyway RedandWhite 91 it was good to hear your story and apologies but I am completely ignorant about Addisons disease but I will look into it shortly and I hope with medication you continue to stay well. Sincerely folks, in the main a very gratifying and enlightening read where you cannot readily dismiss any of the views and beliefs put forward by some very well read individuals. I remain agnostic but with a desire to change towards a more rationalised faith that keeps my options open. Thanks again. If nothing else I have learned something very positive about the regular contributors on this forum but sadly in a few cases it was just an exercise in simple dismissal.

Daren as unusual you take things out of context and I remain supportive of the club's methods of supporting charitable causes and what really rattled you was the fact you were prevented by their acceptable policy of doing your bit although. You didn't like me supporting them over your good intentions but you could have gone somewhere else as a registered collecter and you may well have done. My offer of a donation for your next collection / event still stands and I remain a keen supporter of Breast Cancer charities having attended events all over the UK over the past 3 years to do my bit and like you in recognition of the fact you really apprecaite the work of the cancer charities when you are most affected by it. My questions about your Mum were well intentioned and if you think otherwise then I'm afraid you don't me very well, which you don't of course. The thread was discussing missing posters and as you had not been around for a while I was genuinely concerned and so asked the question. In hindsight perhaps I could have asked the question simply as 'Where is Daren Wheeler, he hasn't posted for a while' but we can't get it right all the time so I apologise if i caused any offence, it was certainly not intended. As regards my less critical views on Lowe it's simple really. People have vilified him whilst IMO ignoring some less then glorious actions by the likes of Crouch, MLT and McMenemy that would largely go ignored or unrecognised by the majority and I think it's important to share a different opinion. Adding to the hate Lowe comments would not serve any purpose in trying to understand the recent history of this club but it does not mean I don't agree with a lot of gets said. Sometimes Daren you need to read what isn't written.