Verbal

Strange. I had you down as more of an ar$e man - our very own Sacha Baron Canteen, landing upside down on the forum.

I'm not here.

Sounds like you've just experienced a Damascene conversion - because by the same token, the quality of the OLD chairman also set the tone for the long term future of the club. Hence we're where we are. Presumably then you'll now happily accept that Lowe had 'double relegation and ruin' stamped through him like Brighton rock. Welcome to the dark side (and sorry to bring up what now seems ancient history).

I suppose this shouldn't bother me, but it does. You're saying that you and a few others know what 'really' happened; that those being critical of MJ can't possibly have known what happened; we should all shut up, including yourself (but not on this occasion); and you're not going to tell the many critics of MJ why they're wrong. It makes me nervous. I remember all too well the tickings off initially issued by you and others to posters who criticised tommac. And look how that ended up. I also recall a certain trio on here who were told in advance by Wilde last year that he was going to get into bed with Lowe - but who thought it better to keep that to themselves. A little (often partial) knowledge really is a dangerous thing. Personally I prefer the leaks and misdirection of ITKs to the tut-tutting of ITKBINGTTYs.

KJ's last game, I think, and one of Hammill's first. That wasn't a pretty match.

Phil, I think you and your critics – or MJ’s to be more precise – are slightly talking past one another. The small matter of trust is at the heart of this. It’s a rare and precious commodity, especially where Saints is concerned. I know you’ve been on nodding terms with MJ for a while now, shared drinks in all the best dives in Dubai, and have got to know someone who perhaps doesn’t conform to the cartoon figure that MJ became through his previous dabblings around the boardrooms of Southampton and Bournemouth. In both those previous instances, MJ’s involvement was at best distracting – and at worst, made us look like a football club with all the panache and ambition of Southern League (Maidstone Division) triers. I don’t doubt for a second that MJ had the best of intentions, and together with Green and others, worked his socks off to try and rescue the club. As you and a few others have rightly pointed out, we internet warriors hardly have the high moral ground on this, sitting comfortably behind our keyboards and hoping for some unnamed, loaded saviour to hove in over the horizon. But that’s not really the issue. Suppose MJ/Green et al had a bid that was higher than Pinnacle/MLT’s. Leaving aside Fry for the moment, whom do you think the majority on here and among Saints fans generally would prefer? Even with the fantastic track records and commitment to Saints of Terry Paine and Mick Channon, no one since Ted Bates himself has earned the degree of trust that MLT has – in fact, I’d challenge you to find any player anywhere who’d surpass MLT’s combination of breathtaking talent and one-club loyalty. It’s not just that no one can compete with that – it’s that people have been genuinely fearful that MJ would somehow trip up the MLT-supported bid. And frankly it’s a fear with a good grounding in past failures and bloopers. MJ may be an all-round good egg. He may even be a reformed character, having learned his lesson from staring at his blazing fingers. But you can’t just walk away from your past mistakes as if they never happened. MJ could never have the degree of trust enjoyed by MLT. As far as trust is concerned they don’t even exist on the same planet. And this is not just about the recent past. Imagine a ‘sliding doors’ world in which you could skip between a universe in which MJ’/Green’s bid won, and the real one. What would happen when things get sticky – a few bad performances, a struggling manager, etc? Who will get the more time to put things right? Who, in other words, would be the best bet for building the club in the way that Ted Bates did all those years ago? FWIW, I appreciate all the work that MJ and others put into this, but I’m glad he didn’t win. By the way, I'm curious to hear your take on the Fry problem at some point...

Nick, as usual, the problem in any argument with you is that you just make stuff up. I said ‘I don’t think the radio station is any good’, did I? Where, exactly? Then you wave your airy-fairy wand. The signal reach is supposed to make the station profitable? The station makes the club ‘modern’? Sheesh! Radio has been around since the ark. Forget it – the business model of a virtually stand-alone, fully-fledged radio station is history. The real question is: What should the club do with its live radio/internet rights to the games? After all, that’s the main reason people who can’t get to the game want to tune in. The new regime has two basic choices. It can sell those rights to their local broadcast stations. Coventry have a deal for their matches with their local BBC station, as do Crystal Palace. Wolves and West Brom sell their games to their local commercial radio stations and their associated internet sites. And so on. Or the club can set up a stand-alone internet site and, say, add a small upcharge on the membership card as a subscription for access during games. The collapse of Radio Hampshire is no reason to deny fans who can’t get to the games the ability to listen in. In the grand scale of things, given all the challenges the new regime faces in rebuilding the club from the ruins left behind by Lowe, this is small beer. But I’ve no doubt it’ll be addressed by Pinnacle, assuming and hoping all goes to plan in the next twenty days.

Exactly. For some reason, nickh and Frank Cousins decided to engage in playground economics yesterday by declaring that the radio station could have been a good investment – if only we hadn’t been relegated. While we were in the Prem, it was a loss-making service. When we were relegated, it was just another millstone round our necks. Lowe may have fancied himself as some kind of media mogul but if his intention was to make the radio station a long-term ‘profit centre’ for the club, it was naïve in the extreme. The economics of commercial radio requires that you club together. You need to share advertising sales staff, backroom staff and as much overhead as you possibly can with as many other radio stations as you can to turn a profit. Many if not most commercial radio stations also share programmes. Even with all this, it can be a struggle to stay in the black. Radio Hampshire was owned by Town and Country Radio, a very, very small (mostly Welsh) radio group. As it turns out, it was too small to make it work. To run a radio station as a ‘stand-alone’ or as part of a small alliance is tempting commercial suicide – and the ONLY justification for it, when the club is wealthy and successful, is as a service to the fans. Yet even with the takeover it’s not clear at the moment that the club will even be able to save parts of the club like the Academy – it may well be cut back to focus all attention on building the first team. In any list of priorities, the radio station is WAY down there – and in my view shouldn’t even be considered. Let someone else take it over if they want to, and let them deal with the constant and distracting (for a football club) struggle of making it pay. And if you want a radio station, pray that one of the big players takes an interest.

It's like coming out of a long, dark tunnel. Not just the weeks of near-collapse, but the interminable years supporting a club repeatedly hijacked and assaulted by spivs, charlatons, chancers, monomaniacs and liars.

Well that's progress at least. I'm a bit puzzled as to how the Echo can report that they handed over £500,000, and yet Fry is quoting the figure as 'undisclosed'. But hey... I presume this also means that MJ has yet again got as far as shelling money out to begin due diligence (but 'non-exclusively') and lost out. Surprising that someone could be gazumped in this economic climate.

In other words, in any other world except the real one, this was a good investment. Brilliant! If ever I give the impression that I need investment advice from you, nickh, please assume that I have lost my mind. Thanking you in advance.

DD is not tommac. I hope. With the club clinging onto life by its fingernails, tommac's return would just about kill us off, such was the incredible damage his foolishness caused last time. But I think I'd know that noodle head's writing style (for want of a better phrase) anywhere and this isn't it, unless he's gone back to school. I did find the 'paedo' attack a bit deranged, though. Definitely a personal grudge. And the way he gets his ITK posing pouch out is a bit distressing. But tommac couldn't spell 'pyrrhic', even with a dictionary. He'd have thought it was just a posh way of saying pr1ck.

I'd suggest that this is grounds for some optimism at least. If the game were really up, the staff would be streaming out of the building by now.

So Leon isn't cashflowing staff wages?

Amazing what a bit of (potentially) good news will do. The entire Saints Web Spelling Bee (First Five) has turned up on one thread.

You're right. I wasn't thinking - which also explains how I could have started a post with the not too sensible 'Would could...' I think I must have been distracted by the post that was eventually deleted by some headless chicken. Still, if Wotton and a few others could at least try imitating Cana once in a while, we might get more points than yellow cards next season. Amazingly Cana doesn't get many - about one every four games in a pussycat league. Off to Arsenal soon, so the rumours go. Cana, that is - not Wotton. (In case you were wondering.)

Would could do with some of this next season. And before you wiseacres get going, no, I'm not saying we should/can/ever dream of buying him. It's just great to watch. Something for Wotton to play before running on to the pitch next season...

Many thanks, Phil – it’ll take a while to digest all that and think through the implications, but I really appreciate the detailed response. I’d have responded sooner but MOG hasn’t paid my fiver yet and this 3-posts rule is a bit of a nuisance while things are this ‘interesting’. Now on to our friend on the other side of the fence… Morph, I know you model yourself on Deep Throat – only confirming or denying statements made on here. But how about breaking the Delphic habit and answering a few questions, without using the phrase ‘follow the money’ (or lack of it…). It seems beyond doubt that you’re close enough to the Salz camp to know not only what they’re up to, but also to have at least some inside information about the strengths and especially the weaknesses of the MJ/Green camp. How do you know – or come to believe – that the immediate consortium around MJ do not have the money? If what you say is true, the MJ bid is bound to fail – so it’s pretty critical information. Why is Crouch – who is clearly part of the Salz consortium – willing to underwrite the immediate running costs of SFC Ltd, if there is even half a chance the MJ bid will succeed? Is there an agreement between the two sides that if MJ wins then Crouch will be reimbursed? Or are you all so certain of their failure that Crouch’s underwriting funds are safe? (Of course, contrary to nickh, Crouch’s underwriting does in effect make the Salz group – of which Couch is a member – the only ones so far who’ve put their money where their mouth is…but it doesn’t make total sense without answers to these questions.) Have you factored in the problem of the club getting stuffed with a 25-point deduction if the MJ bid fails and effectively ‘times out’ your counter-bid? Is the Salz bid so low that it is only possible with the complete collapse of the club – so that Aviva and Barclays have no choice but to accept a reduced asking price? Are the Salz group prepared to talk to the MJ bid about a possible pooling – or are they seen as beyond the pale? All IYHO. Regards, V

Phil, The following is written in the style of trousers – so if any of it is inaccurate, don’t blame me. I’ve taken your admonition to read what you say very carefully, and concluded that: 1. Although you’re a long-term friend of MJ, this time, you’ve now gone one step further (in the purely Platonic sense, of course), and are actually involved in the MJ/Green bid. If it succeeds, you’ll be somewhere between a sleeping partner and director of finance. 2. Somewhere in ‘The Art of War’ it says you should show your enemy your Achilles heel – and perhaps a more significant one than MJ. Having not actually read Sun Tzu, I can only conclude that it’s in there somewhere, because you seem to have conceded that the consortium is made up of ‘professionals with specific skill sets.’ Salz’s militia appear certain that this means that the moneybags are not in the actual consortium itself – hence Morph’s caustic response, that you ‘seem to be implying that the people behind Jackson are the people with money.’ So presumably MJ/Green/Phil are going to be looking to the money markets, to the extent that they still exist in Dubai, or to a single, loaded investor somewhere out there in the shifting sands. 3. You’ve confirmed that Aviva in particular – the single largest creditor by far – are playing hardball, to the extent that they won’t accept anything less than the total of what they’re owed, although it might be in the form of pennies in the pound now plus some sort of buy now/pay later deal. This means that their finger truly is on the nuclear button – and so I understand completely your anxiety that the club itself will go into Administration with a -25 points penalty, and may well sink straight into League Two and possible further oblivion. 4. This one is maybe way out there. The consortium has used its influence at the club to encourage Mark Wotte to act as if it’s ‘business as usual’, in preparation for an appeal against the ten-point deduction. Hence the contract offers to Davis, Euell and BWP, etc. (By the way, who IS Wotte’s boss right now, if the club itself is not in admin – surely not Fry.) Four responses are permissible to each of the above: a flat-out denial (‘Wrong’), a non-denial denial (‘the order of your facts is wrong’), sheepish chortling (not sure how you do that in a post, but I’m sure you’ll find a way), and abuse (you choose.) Having failed to get a response from Morph yesterday, I’m going to ‘trouser’ him shortly too, in like-for-like forensic analysis (or complete garbage – delete to taste).

I think, strictly speaking, the only person to put his money where his mouth is so far is Leon Crouch, who is part of the Salz consortium, if Morph is to be believed. One of the few facts of which we're certain is that MJ's party baulked at the upfront payment of £500,000. Whether they did this for tactical reasons, or simply couldn't afford it, it hardly amounts to putting their money where their mouth is, does it? The only costs they're currently incurring would be accountants' fees for due diligence, which may or may not lead to their confirming their bid. Like you and everyone else, I hope there's a club still standing at the end of this. (Last post of the day - damn this 3 posts limit!)

If Salz and his allies appear to be suggesting that they're in but only at a bargain-basement price, this doesn't mean they're poor necessarily. And given Salz's connections (including the very locally connected Rothschild family), the very idea seems a bit odd. But I'd be surprised to see them make any kind of move until the MJ bid - and any other bid that might be out there - falls apart. Salz's people clearly want to avoid a bidding war - which is likely in the long run to be bad for the club - but seem very secure in their certainty that the MJ bid is rubbish. All of which we're all going to have to wait longer than we can probably stand before we know whether we still have a football team to support.

Morph, I’m sure you don’t need a lecture about what’s at stake here. But I just want to be sure… Both sides in the argument about MJ are essentially right: we're at the last chance saloon and anything is better than annihilation; and MJ's track record leads many to think he may actually hasten that annihilation. The problem is that MJ's modus operandum, it seems to me, is not to build consortia on the basis of trust, but to act as a kind of middle-man who in effect says: let me talk to these guys and I'll get you the best price - you then decide whether you want to pay it. He's been here before, of course. At Bournemouth, he got all the way to due diligence, but found he had to pay for it himself. He lost a small fortune (probably a big one for him). His backers were, in the end, nowhere to be seen, and it sent AFCB into a tailspin. With Aviva's AND the Football League's hands hovering over the nuclear button, there is absolutely no margin for error. If MJ misjudges either his backers or Aviva, I dread to think of the consequences. Equally, Morph, if you’re now officially (on here, at least) throwing Salz’s hat into the ring, I would hope and expect that you wouldn’t have done that recklessly – and that we can be confident that Salz will ride in and save the club, if we suddenly find MJ flaming out in a blaze of embarrassing TV interviews. That’s right, Morph? Isn’t it?

"Man Stabbed in Face"? Sheesh, these negotiations are getting ugly. If you ask me, we need more pooh-poohing. Pooh-poohing is what we do best. (Tiggers too)

You do know that 'Mr Allen' is actually tommac, don't you? (The short-sleeved wonder who is to football what Pantsman is to advertising.)