Being objective about your childhood heroes... it's difficult! How do you do it?

[TopGun]

My first memories are of the FA Cup in 1976 really and then watching Saints as a kid through the late 70s until I left Southampton in 1987 to start an adult life.

 

The problem I weigh up with myself is were my memories objective or not?

 

Without mentioning the obvious great players like Channon and Keegan, my heroes were Phil Boyer, Steve Williams, Steve Moran and Danny Wallace etc. I sometimes wonder whether I am guilty of disparaging more recent players although some stand out like Marian Pahars at his best (MLT needs no mention).

 

How do others try and reconcile differences in time and personal changing perceptions of life and football as you age?

 

Deep huh!

Edited 30 July, 2009 by TopGun

[Fan The Flames]

F**** me you're old, I only left home in 1989. From the FA cup win it seemed we were on a forever upwards trajectory which came crashing down in the 90's. The late 70's and 80's were great and one could really hold their own amoung all the Man U and Liverpool fans, we were graced with great players but we were always better as the sum of the parts and this is what made us so attractive to me. We got the best out of what we had, it seemed there was something special about us that magnifed the sum worth of the individuals to a greater collective worth.

 

Since those days we have had some great players, players who really did prolong our stay in the top flight, MLT and MP are definately up there. However it seemed in the 70's and 80's that our team was full of top players, maybe it is age and seeing thing through kids eyes is more impressive than the drunked aged eyes. Or is it just a sad inditment of modern football that a club the size of ours wont be able to soar to the heights we achieved when I was a lad without the benefit of a rich backer. Oh hang on... oh when the saints, go marching in.

[cambsaint]

The title of your post gives you the answer Top Gun.

 

Childhood heroes are exactly that and should be left as such, along with other fond memories..

 

When older the cold light of rationality must guide your judgement, but childhood is a time for heroes, playing and growing up..

 

I'm probably a decade or so older than you and of the players you mentioned Steve Williams was a deeply flawed footballing genius-but probably with very little brain, and Moran, Boyer and Wallace were good but hardly outstanding players.

 

So I think on balance it is best to keep your childhood heroes and not expose them to too much judgement.

[TopGun]

Yeah, you get my drift FtF...

 

Am I unfair thinking that Chris Marsden Football God was not a patch on David Armstrong for example? Although I do rate CMFG way higher than other recent left midfielders...

 

I'm sure that older posters than I have their views also which involve Ron Davies and Terry Paine and others also too. A conundrum, I feel, for anyone with a childhood older than the next poster as such! Was Dennis Hollywood better than Mark Dennis better than Wayne Bridge etc!

[TopGun]

The title of your post gives you the answer Top Gun.

 

Childhood heroes are exactly that and should be left as such, along with other fond memories..

 

When older the cold light of rationality must guide your judgement, but childhood is a time for heroes, playing and growing up..

 

I'm probably a decade or so older than you and of the players you mentioned Steve Williams was a deeply flawed footballing genius-but probably with very little brain, and Moran, Boyer and Wallace were good but hardly outstanding players.

 

So I think on balance it is best to keep your childhood heroes and not expose them to too much judgement.

 

Good points. But the difficulty of being rational about players is hard when you are working with childhood views and trying to balance those with adult ones. Which is the issue I raise!

[rick1976.4.38]

i think that as you get older,you look at the inadequcies alot more in the players.when your young as i was in the 60/70,the players we had were just as good as the utds/scousers etc,we just loved the football and everything about the old dell.so as a kid you just go for the enjoyment more,as you get older you realise how sh** some of the players are.whatever though weve been blessed with some fine talent over the years,but now money has taken over and we will never be on the same playing field.when we signed kk it was like signing ronaldo now.cmfg wasnt a patch on armstrong,but different eras,chris at the time gave what we needed.the players through the decades have all given us a different perspective,but however old you are they give a bit of something individual to us all.coyr

[TopGun]

i think that as you get older,you look at the inadequcies alot more in the players.when your young as i was in the 60/70,the players we had were just as good as the utds/scousers etc,we just loved the football and everything about the old dell.so as a kid you just go for the enjoyment more,as you get older you realise how sh** some of the players are.whatever though weve been blessed with some fine talent over the years,but now money has taken over and we will never be on the same playing field.when we signed kk it was like signing ronaldo now.cmfg wasnt a patch on armstrong,but different eras,chris at the time gave what we needed.the players through the decades have all given us a different perspective,but however old you are they give a bit of something individual to us all.coyr

 

Can't argue with that. I hope the new regime gives us some of the old fun back though.

 

I'm fed up with mediocre small-time mercenaries playing for SFC and want some old-time thrills provided by a good manager and committed club players. And I say hats off to KD for turning down West Ham and acting as a mentor in that manner to younger players.

[rick1976.4.38]

i agree with you,kd staying on when a contract at whu would have probably been treble what he gets here was outstanding,it makes a change from the mercenaries that take a team down then jump ship.i think the good times will return under ap,roll on the new season

[EastleighSoulBoy]

The title of your post gives you the answer Top Gun.

 

Childhood heroes are exactly that and should be left as such, along with other fond memories..

 

When older the cold light of rationality must guide your judgement, but childhood is a time for heroes, playing and growing up..

 

I'm probably a decade or so older than you and of the players you mentioned Steve Williams was a deeply flawed footballing genius-but probably with very little brain, and Moran, Boyer and Wallace were good but hardly outstanding players.

 

So I think on balance it is best to keep your childhood heroes and not expose them to too much judgement.

 

Can't argue with that logic but I can't help but make commparisons like:

 

Yeah, you get my drift FtF...

 

Am I unfair thinking that Chris Marsden Football God was not a patch on David Armstrong for example? Although I do rate CMFG way higher than other recent left midfielders...

 

I'm sure that older posters than I have their views also which involve Ron Davies and Terry Paine and others also too. A conundrum, I feel, for anyone with a childhood older than the next poster as such! Was Dennis Hollywood better than Mark Dennis better than Wayne Bridge etc!

 

Comparing players from different eras is difficult because the way the game is played has changed. While I liked CMFG as a hard working player I look at him against Armstrong and it immediately leaps out at me that Armstrong did play for England. Now, some players for whatever reason, MLT, do get overlooked by their National side but I just can't picture CMFG in an England shirt!

 

As kids we were not aware of players flaws, of course they had them! There was no internet, no incessant press coverage of the players then. They still went out on the p155, played away from home and probably got into a scuffle or two. We didn't even know about our club chairman, apart from the fact his name was Mr Reader!

 

So I'd try not to be too objective, or analytical, of our boyhood heroes. Cynicism comes with age and experience, let's not apply it to our childhood heroes.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Can't argue with that. I hope the new regime gives us some of the old fun back though.

 

I'm fed up with mediocre small-time mercenaries playing for SFC and want some old-time thrills provided by a good manager and committed club players. And I say hats off to KD for turning down West Ham and acting as a mentor in that manner to younger players.

 

i agree with you,kd staying on when a contract at whu would have probably been treble what he gets here was outstanding,it makes a change from the mercenaries that take a team down then jump ship.i think the good times will return under ap,roll on the new season

 

Fair play to KD and I reckon when he was interested in WHU it was because he feared that he would not have a job here. Any one of us would have done the same thing.

[John B]

My first memories are of the FA Cup in 1976 really and then watching Saints as a kid through the late 70s until I left Southampton in 1987 to start an adult life.

 

The problem I weigh up with myself is were my memories objective or not?

 

Without mentioning the obvious great players like Channon and Keegan, my heroes were Phil Boyer, Steve Williams, Steve Moran and Danny Wallace etc. I sometimes wonder whether I am guilty of disparaging more recent players although some stand out like Marian Pahars at his best (MLT needs no mention).

 

How do others try and reconcile differences in time and personal changing perceptions of life and football as you age?

 

Deep huh!

 

I think in the 1960s 70s and 80s we had a number of outstanding players but apart from MLT since the introduction of the Premier League it has been impossible to recruit them or keep them for any length of time.

 

 

Football has changed money being so important when SFC were relegated in 1974 players like Channon and Osgood did not leave immediately to get more money

[Ozkeith2]

I think that as time passes, you only remember the good bits (& maybe some really, really horrible bits). For Me, our best ever left midfielder was Nick Holmes 'cos when I think back, I can only remember the chip from halfway vs Watford in the league cup and the league cup final goal (not the same season, we lost a 4-0 first leg lead to Watford).

[lordswoodsaints]

Childhood memories are pure.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Childhood memories are pure.

 

True.

[StInky]

Childhood heroes:- pretty much any of them from 66/67 when I first started supporting Saints. But, as the team changed there were new heroes to acclaim:- Channon, Keegan . . . . to MLT and Niemmi. And then all of a sudden there were no more heroes. Without them the team becomes less emotionally compelling and whilst supporting Saints for over 40 years has bound me to the club and the city, supporting the team over the last few years has been a bit of a chore. I hope the heroes return soon.

[david in sweden]

My first memories are of the FA Cup in 1976 really and then watching Saints as a kid through the late 70s until I left Southampton in 1987 to start an adult life.

 

The problem I weigh up with myself is were my memories objective or not?

 

Without mentioning the obvious great players like Channon and Keegan, my heroes were Phil Boyer, Steve Williams, Steve Moran and Danny Wallace etc. I sometimes wonder whether I am guilty of disparaging more recent players although some stand out like Marian Pahars at his best (MLT needs no mention).

How do others try and reconcile differences in time and personal changing perceptions of life and football as you age? Deep huh!

 

As a fan of over 50 years standing....mostly at The Dell, I think there are many factors to consider. Which division we were in at the time they played, what was the success rate of the team, and what was the division like at the time. The players you mentioned were all first teamers during our (old) Div.1 days. With the exception of Moran, (who was a natural goal poacher but never England standard)....all played at some international level U21 / 23 , full. The pace was different, so too were the pitches and the type of ball they played with. I recall Terry Paine who could have dribbled a ball across a ploughed field if asked, and John Sydenham argueably the fastest winger Saints ever had... till we saw Theo Walcott in a full flight !

 

All players have " good seasons " , thankfully some of them had consistancy, and played well for several years. It helped (as was noted on another thread) to be the right player.. in the right team ..at the right time.

A quick look at the Millenium Video/ DVD shows the SFC Dream Team (selected by David Bull and Duncan Holley) and in all fairness I think they picked well. I was fortunate enough to have seen most of them play.

 

Apart from Paine (59-74), Ron Davies (66-72) and later MLT 86-onwards most of their choices were from the Mc Menemy years, when we won FA Cup and promotion back to Div.1...and played with a star-studded squad for almost 10 years (sadly only names to young fans who never saw them play).

In retrospect , one can say that certain players were excellent even in poor teams, but I would have loved to see players like MLT and Pahars in the same McM. teams with Keegan, Ball and Osgood... or even have seen the injury-stricken Ronnie Eklund around to have replaced TP - when he left in 1974 ...or, even Michael Svensson playing alongside Mark Wright !

 

More recent players are often fitter because the game IS faster nowadays, but sadly many are lacking in basic skills that older players grew up with. Modern training methods suit the game plan, but often leaves out room for genius to show itself. I just feel that I'm fortunate to have seen many good players over the years -even if they didn't always - " win things " .

..

Edited 3 August, 2009 by david in sweden

[tttdcs]

F**** me you're old, I only left home in 1989. From the FA cup win it seemed we were on a forever upwards trajectory which came crashing down in the 90's.

 

I enjoyed that post until your reply !!! (I must be meet your age classification, because it mirrors my life upto 1989) :-(

[Toadhall Saint]

Funny this - I was only thinking about this yesterday!

 

For me the greatest time of supporting Saints ie, they gave me as much as I gave them was circa 75 (I was 9) until probably about 2003 (not far off 30 years). The players that played for us in that time were some of the greatest players that had graced English football - the sides were littered with internationals and those IMHO that would have not been far off - truely halcion days for a Saints supporter.

 

There are the obvious players (in no order of greatness) Channon, Keegan, Ball, Steve Williams, MLT etc but the others that truely played apart - Graham Baker, Mark Wright, Joe Jordan (yeah I know he was a skate but what a Centre Forward), Rod & Danny Wallace, Armstrong, Mark Wright, Ivan Golac, Jimmy Case, well the list goes on and I know I've missed loads!

How to reconcile those with the ones of more recent years - I can't really, the game was different then - tough tackling midfielders, only one sub allowed, offside rule different, player fitness, pitches (they haven't always been like snooker tables) and obviously the money players are paid etc.

 

I'm just glad I had the chance to see and yes adore the above players. I totally beleive that we will rise again and future generations of Saints fans will get to see a better calibre of player playing in the great red & white. The last few years have been hell on earth but you can only appreciate the good if you have felt the bad. All things considered tho' I still feel privileged - just watching one game with MLT in his pomp and never knowing what he was going to do next - priceless.

[sidthesquid]

Two things struck me about this - one, that a lot of the team I first watched - eg Hollywood, McGrath, O'Neil, Fisher, Jenkins - would probably struggle in League One these days. Even Big Ron - he would make Rasiak look like a pacy workaholic. But they were of their time and I guess can only be judged that way.

The other, sadder thing, is it is a lot harder for youngsters to have those heroes like we did. It is all but impossible for a local lad to come up through the ranks and have a long career with the team (any team, in fact - Terry & Gerrard are pretty unique in the Prem) It is no coincidence that many of our heroes have come up through the ranks - Paine, Channon, Holmes, Moran, Williams, MLT, Bridge. And even if they move on they retain a place in our hearts. Nowadays any lad with something special is whipped away at sixteen or seventeen before we have even got to recognise their face. I take a passing interest in Walcott or Bale's career, but never as much as say Bridgey who at least had the chance to become a hero to us. And the high turnover of players, and the likelihood that they'll be off after one good season (and this applies to any team, not just us) means that today's kids don't get to make those bonds like I did towards people like Micky Channon.

My advice would be to wallow in the rose tinted memories of your childhood heroes - you don't know how lucky you are to have them

[lordswoodsaints]

My first game was in 1971 aged 4 so I would say that for most of the 70's and most of the 80's that would be my best times supporting saints.there were some good times in the letissier years but I would have to say that the strachan era was the closest I've seen to those 70's/80's days.

The 70's/80's seemed to be a better quality of football played by a different class of player not too interested in the money side of things.I had no idea who ran the club and I didn't care,there was no tinternet forums and the echo worked with the club and only printed the facts.

Money wasn't the driving factor behind everything and the game was very accessible to the not so well off,it was the game of the lower classes but didn't exclude those lucky enough to have money.

Players were not wrapped in cotton wool and kept away from the unwashed,jimmy Steele worked with my dad on the building sites in the summer to keep himself fit,I used to go out drinking with reuben agboola (still a good friend),mark dennis and any other players that tagged along.players lived in your neighbourhood,not behind electric gates in chilworth or security controlled penthouses in ocean village and shared the same emotions as us as they became part of the community.......still evident by the amount of ex pros who still live amongst us or in the vicinity.

 

I know these things will never return but I think the world of football would be a better place if they did.

[derry]

There aren't that many that were geniuses. MLT for his all round ball skill.

Terry Paine one of the best crossers there has ever been. Ron Davies the best attacking header of a ball I've ever seen.

 

These players stand out but the best thing for me was the latter played in the same team in their prime.

 

I haven't seen their like since.

[Toadhall Saint]

My first game was in 1971 aged 4 so I would say that for most of the 70's and most of the 80's that would be my best times supporting saints.there were some good times in the letissier years but I would have to say that the strachan era was the closest I've seen to those 70's/80's days.

The 70's/80's seemed to be a better quality of football played by a different class of player not too interested in the money side of things.I had no idea who ran the club and I didn't care,there was no tinternet forums and the echo worked with the club and only printed the facts.

Money wasn't the driving factor behind everything and the game was very accessible to the not so well off,it was the game of the lower classes but didn't exclude those lucky enough to have money.

Players were not wrapped in cotton wool and kept away from the unwashed,jimmy Steele worked with my dad on the building sites in the summer to keep himself fit,I used to go out drinking with reuben agboola (still a good friend),mark dennis and any other players that tagged along.players lived in your neighbourhood,not behind electric gates in chilworth or security controlled penthouses in ocean village and shared the same emotions as us as they became part of the community.......still evident by the amount of ex pros who still live amongst us or in the vicinity.

 

I know these things will never return but I think the world of football would be a better place if they did.

 

Well said Lordswood - life was different back then (bloody hell I'm sounding old). Football just seemed more........ honest.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

My childhood hero was MLT...I don't think there is any need to be objective about him! ;-)