Are We Going Back to "Total Football"?

[Arizona]

Couldn't help thinking that the formation we finished with tonight was a lot like the 4-2-3-1 we used to play at the start of last season under Poortaloo. Have to say I prefer it to the 4-5-1 we started the game with as having the three players in central midfield is just a waste IMO. It also meant Lambert was on his own with Smurf and Bonio having to chose between staying wide and supporting him.

 

Perhaps it's the same as the formation against The Gills, I wasn't there, but I'd be inclined to stick with it. Sub in Lallana for Saga and Schneiderlin for Wotton. That would just about be our strongest 11 IMO (with our first choice CB pairing)

[SaintBobby]

I thought we finished with a pretty standard 4-4-2.

 

It certainly wans't "total football". Torquay were passing the ball, we were lumping it forward.

[Master Bates]

I also thought we finished 4-4-2, along with the commentators on Solent.

[SaintRichmond]

I thought we finished with a pretty standard 4-4-2.

 

It certainly wans't "total football". Torquay were passing the ball, we were lumping it forward.

 

Just about sums it up. I thought we were Krap to be honest. The instructions seemed to be, " don't pass, just Hoof" .... and " see how far you can head the ball, preferably to an opponent" .... Perhaps Pardew should employ some Football Coaches to TEACH players how to PASS, and CROSS .... Give Terry Paine a ring

 

It's a WASTE OF TIME sending such "moans and groans " to the Club FAO Mr Pardew, as they either don't get through, or he doesn't want to know anyway, but IMHO, the Standard of Saints Football last night was Very Very Poor, in fact, the ONLY Football came from Torquay

 

Oh yes, just a note for the Goalkeeping Coach .... You've nearly got it right ....

 

When the ball is in the opponents half, Kelvin comes off his line, ( halfway to the centre circle in fact) THAT NEARLY COST US A GOAL

 

But, When the ball comes into Kelvin's own six yard box, a lot of the time he STAYS on his line ...... ask any Top Line keeper, ie Jennings, Banks, Shilton, Clemence etc etc, and they will tell you that "anything in the six yard box is the Keepers ":cool:

[bungle]

We played the whole second half using 4-4-2. Never mind, Arizona. Never mind.

[Matthew Le God]

Arizona clearly watches a different game to the rest of us.

[SaintDonkey]

I wouldn't be so quick to chastise Arizona's reading of our formation. It may have been a 4-4-2 on paper but Mills spent much of the second half forwards of Lambert (unfortunately drifting around ineffectively rather than running into space) as was Papa (to greater effect!). Saga didn't seem to know where he was supposed to be - or more likely didn't care.

 

I don't know if it was a 4-2-3-1 but it certainly wasn't a conventional 4-4-2

[Fowllyd]

It's a WASTE OF TIME sending such "moans and groans " to the Club FAO Mr Pardew, as they either don't get through, or he doesn't want to know anyway, but IMHO, the Standard of Saints Football last night was Very Very Poor, in fact, the ONLY Football came from Torquay

 

If Alan Pardew (or any other football manager, come to that) listened to the various moans and groans of supporters, then he'd have to play at least twenty different styles at once, and have pretty much the entire first-team squad on the pitch. Hardly feasible really. Do you think he should spend all his time sifting through a heap of suggestions and comments, or would he be better off actually managing the team? Or are you angling for a job as his special advisor, with particular emphasis on capital letters, multiple full stops and smilies?

[Nineteen Canteen]

Seriously who cares? We should be treating this competition with the disdain the big 4 reserve for the Carling Cup. We should have fielded our academy team or at best our reserve team and given them the chance to take us as far forward in the competiton as possible.

 

My guess is if we had been a little more advanced in our pre-season preparations Pardew wouldn't need to use these games to continue to develop his opinion on his best side/formation. There is surely no sense in risking injury to established first teamers in games like this unless we still need to build opinion on how they play with other members of the squad.

 

Pardew tells us that he would like to deliver a Wembley final for the club but IMO the reality is somewhat different and these games are being treated as 'serious friendlies' and a chance to further develop opinion on his resources in an unimportant match situation alongside more regular players. Afterall, he cannot afford to experiment in a grand scale in the league.

 

It's a pity we have to take the risk and that we can't play our academy/reserve team but that is no fault of anyone at the club from the new regime who saved this club as opposed to 'tried'.

[Clifford Nelson]

I wouldn't be so quick to chastise Arizona's reading of our formation. It may have been a 4-4-2 on paper but Mills spent much of the second half forwards of Lambert (unfortunately drifting around ineffectively rather than running into space) as was Papa (to greater effect!). Saga didn't seem to know where he was supposed to be - or more likely didn't care.

 

I don't know if it was a 4-2-3-1 but it certainly wasn't a conventional 4-4-2

 

Spot on. I'm quite sure it wasn't AP changing the formation, but some players started who didn't understand it and others finished who didn't understand it either. Too many years playing 4-4-2 for some, maybe, for them to be flexible. As I've written elsewhere, round pegs in round holes are probably more important than formation, but since we haven't got any traditional wingers in the club, can we please forget 4-4-2?

 

It gets as tedious as listening to Merrington on Solent, the man with one simple solution to all ills, as if he is selling snake oil: "You must put on another striker", meaning: You must play 4-4-2.

 

With 7 goals scored from open play in three games and us being able to defend set pieces AP has cured two achilles heels. And we started out with many of them.

[Clifford Nelson]

Seriously who cares? We should be treating this competition with the disdain the big 4 reserve for the Carling Cup. We should have fielded our academy team or at best our reserve team and given them the chance to take us as far forward in the competiton as possible.

 

My guess is if we had been a little more advanced in our pre-season preparations Pardew wouldn't need to use these games to continue to develop his opinion on his best side/formation. There is surely no sense in risking injury to established first teamers in games like this unless we still need to build opinion on how they play with other members of the squad.

 

Pardew tells us that he would like to deliver a Wembley final for the club but IMO the reality is somewhat different and these games are being treated as 'serious friendlies' and a chance to further develop opinion on his resources in an unimportant match situation alongside more regular players. Afterall, he cannot afford to experiment in a grand scale in the league.

 

It's a pity we have to take the risk and that we can't play our academy/reserve team but that is no fault of anyone at the club from the new regime who saved this club as opposed to 'tried'.

 

Maybe you noticed that we only won last night by the skin of our teeth,whilst playing most of our first choice players? So why on earth you would think that our academy team would have produced anything but a huge loss defeats me. Losing is bad for any team or club, and it is our unwillingness to take that simple truth on board which created the complete lack of a winning spirit, which AP spotted immediately when he arrived. And now I read a supporter suggesting the virtue of going out to lose a few games. Even the Corinthians are playing to win these days.

[Nineteen Canteen]

Maybe you noticed that we only won last night by the skin of our teeth,whilst playing most of our first choice players? So why on earth you would think that our academy team would have produced anything but a huge loss defeats me. Losing is bad for any team or club, and it is our unwillingness to take that simple truth on board which created the complete lack of a winning spirit, which AP spotted immediately when he arrived. And now I read a supporter suggesting the virtue of going out to lose a few games. Even the Corinthians are playing to win these days.

 

I would argue we only played 6 of our first 11 and that losing the JPT tie would have been a blessing indisguise unless AP intends to use it as a serious friendly going forward to have a look at others players and formations without risking important league points.

 

The academy, reserve or a combination of the two teams may have lost the game but you have no evidence to suggest it would have been a huge defeat in fact they may have been more fired up with a point to prove in a professional game and may have been less apathetic than the first team players and the fans about whole exercise.

 

If we are going to win a trophy whilst in this league let's make it the play off trophy or championship itself as oppose to some kind of supplementary cup for the flotsam and jetsam of the Football league. A competition that would have more meaning if it included the 3 conference leagues.

 

Let's hope we get knocked out at the next stage if Pardew feels it is necessary to use these games to experiment with players from the first team with those on the periphery as the risks to our overall performance in the league could be great unless you assume we can spend in Januray.

 

Did that game last night help or hinder the confidence and future performances of Davis, Thomas, Harding, James, Hammond and Lambert?

[westofshannonsaint]

Seriously who cares? We should be treating this competition with the disdain the big 4 reserve for the Carling Cup.

 

strange that in the last 10 years, Man utd have been in 3 league cup finals, Liverpool have also been in 3 as have Chelsea, even Arsenal who field a youth team have made 1 final, they might not take it as seriously as the champions league and the prem, but they all like to win it.

 

We are in this competition, we should try to win it. as said elsewhere the trophy cabinet is a bit empty at the mo, and it would be good for both Fan's and Players to experience the new Wembley, it may be an advantage if we get there in the playoffs (this year or next).

 

If we do get to the final, could you get me a ticket using your season ticket/membership, because obviously you wont want to go, & I am lucky if I get to one game a season & would love it to go to Wembley.

Edited 7 October, 2009 by westofshannonsaint

[St Marco]

Yeah was just a bog standard 4-4-2 with Saga and Lambert up front.

 

While talking about Total Football though thought it would be funny to see how JP has been getting on at Fc Eindhoven. Not so good by the looks of it. 2nd to bottom and got mauled 0-8 at home to some team i never heard of. Bet their fans are loving it just as much as we did!

[Nineteen Canteen]

strange that in the last 10 years, Man utd have been in 3 league cup finals, Liverpool have also been in 3 as have Chelsea, even Arsenal who field a youth team have made 1 final, they might not take it as seriously as the champions league and the prem, but they all like to win it.

 

We are in this competition, we should try to win it. as said elsewhere the trophy cabinet is a bit empty at the mo, and it would be good for both Fan's and Players to experience the new Wembley, it may be an advantage if we get there in the playoffs (this year or next).

 

If we do get to the final, could you get me a ticket using your season ticket/membership, because obviously you wont want to go, & I am lucky if I get to one game a season & would love it to go to Wembley.

 

Does that not show the dominance the big 4 have on the game in this country and that they can treat the competition with disdain by fielding their youth and overpaid reserves. Why shouldn't we do the same and give our players the the chance to prove themselves in a professional game.

 

It may be an advantage to play at Wembeley should we need to qualify through the play offs but equally you would be a bit miffed if key players got injured playing JPT ties if we mised out on a playoff place by a few points this season.

 

Just like the other missing 10,000 if we make the Wembley final then I will be using my STs to purchase final tickets (one of the advantages) but seriously hope we are concentrating on league survival and the 5 year plan long before a place in the final may become a reality.

[Arizona]

Maybe I was just looking at it from a funny angle, but it seemed as though Papa and Mills were playing easily as far forward as Saganowski most of the time. Certainly further forward than Wotton and Hammond. Kind of like this:

 

- - - Wotton - - - Hammond - - -

 

Waigo - - - Saganowski - - - Mills

 

- - - - - - - Lambert - - - - - - -

 

Maybe some of you would call that a 4-4-2 with the two wide men pushing forwards a lot and one striker sitting deeper. Whatever you call it, I prefer it to 4-5-1-.

[derry]

I actually think our formations last night were a shapeless mess. A flat back four plus a non tackling, poor passing tactical genius as a holding midfielder. The back four was so square we looked vulnerable every time the ball was played up by Torquay.

 

Apart from the first 15 minutes we had no width on the right until Waigo switched, then no width on the left, Mills might make a fullback but a fullback he is, he doesn't have the subtlety, touch or positional sense to be a wide midfield. The only reason he is there, is because he is naturally left sided.

 

After going two down why we continued to half time with a holding midfielder is beyond belief.

 

Waigo has given us another dimension, awkward but effective at the moment. Lallana needs to play off the left side of Lambert as he is doing but dispense with the holding midfielder who would need a near 100% pass rate to be effective there, and play a natural wide left (only Holmes at the moment) midfielder to give us balance, either Schneiderlin/Mellis and Hammond can alternate defensively.

 

Wotton purely from a numeric standpoint gives us the appearance of strength in midfield but he actually apart from the odd occasion gives us very little. We need touchline to touchline width and that isn't happening.

Edited 7 October, 2009 by derry

[SaintRichmond]

If Alan Pardew (or any other football manager, come to that) listened to the various moans and groans of supporters, then he'd have to play at least twenty different styles at once, and have pretty much the entire first-team squad on the pitch. Hardly feasible really. Do you think he should spend all his time sifting through a heap of suggestions and comments, or would he be better off actually managing the team? Or are you angling for a job as his special advisor, with particular emphasis on capital letters, multiple full stops and smilies?

 

That sentance sums it up really

 

I am sure I am not alone in many of the comments I made. As one of the crowd last night, I called it as I saw it, IMHO, we played abysmally .... a complete "opposite" from last Saturday

 

I do not particularly want AP's job, but it is a Fool who does not at least listen to comments being made as to how HIS Team are, or are not, performing

 

Sounds like you did not go last night, If you did. I am very surprised as how dismissive of my comments you are, and how happy at Saints performance you must be

 

We came close to being dumped out last night, and if Torquay had taken a great chance in the last few minutes .... we would have been :cool:

[Lets B Avenue]

I would argue we only played 6 of our first 11 and that losing the JPT tie would have been a blessing indisguise unless AP intends to use it as a serious friendly going forward to have a look at others players and formations without risking important league points.

 

The academy, reserve or a combination of the two teams may have lost the game but you have no evidence to suggest it would have been a huge defeat in fact they may have been more fired up with a point to prove in a professional game and may have been less apathetic than the first team players and the fans about whole exercise.

 

If we are going to win a trophy whilst in this league let's make it the play off trophy or championship itself as oppose to some kind of supplementary cup for the flotsam and jetsam of the Football league. A competition that would have more meaning if it included the 3 conference leagues.

 

Let's hope we get knocked out at the next stage if Pardew feels it is necessary to use these games to experiment with players from the first team with those on the periphery as the risks to our overall performance in the league could be great unless you assume we can spend in Januray.

 

Did that game last night help or hinder the confidence and future performances of Davis, Thomas, Harding, James, Hammond and Lambert?

 

One of the competitions rules is that all sides field at least 6 1st team regulars in the starting XI and therefore not turn out reserve/academy teams in their place.

 

Mind you, I read that in last nights Echo, so its probably complete bol locks.

[Teddy Nutkins]

That sentance sums it up really

 

I am sure I am not alone in many of the comments I made. As one of the crowd last night, I called it as I saw it, IMHO, we played abysmally .... a complete "opposite" from last Saturday

 

I do not particularly want AP's job, but it is a Fool who does not at least listen to comments being made as to how HIS Team are, or are not, performing

 

Sounds like you did not go last night, If you did. I am very surprised as how dismissive of my comments you are, and how happy at Saints performance you must be

 

We came close to being dumped out last night, and if Torquay had taken a great chance in the last few minutes .... we would have been :cool:

 

FWIW, i agree with you.I could not work out what system we were trying to play, first half or second.At times i think we are moving forward as a team one game, then move backwards the next game, who'd be a manager hey.Highlight of the night for me was when the Torquay player nearly lobbed our keeper, from near the half way line, great vision.

 

Oh and thank the lord we did not have to sit through an extra time half-hour.

[Fowllyd]

That sentance sums it up really

 

I am sure I am not alone in many of the comments I made. As one of the crowd last night, I called it as I saw it, IMHO, we played abysmally .... a complete "opposite" from last Saturday

 

I do not particularly want AP's job, but it is a Fool who does not at least listen to comments being made as to how HIS Team are, or are not, performing

 

Sounds like you did not go last night, If you did. I am very surprised as how dismissive of my comments you are, and how happy at Saints performance you must be

 

We came close to being dumped out last night, and if Torquay had taken a great chance in the last few minutes .... we would have been :cool:

 

My comment had nothing to do with the game last night (and no, I wasn't there). In fact, I didn't even mention the game, or Saints' performance. I was simply commenting on your assertion that it's a 'waste of time' (in capitals in your original post) sending 'moans and groans' into the club.

[dubai_phil]

Maybe you noticed that we only won last night by the skin of our teeth,whilst playing most of our first choice players? So why on earth you would think that our academy team would have produced anything but a huge loss defeats me. Losing is bad for any team or club, and it is our unwillingness to take that simple truth on board which created the complete lack of a winning spirit, which AP spotted immediately when he arrived. And now I read a supporter suggesting the virtue of going out to lose a few games. Even the Corinthians are playing to win these days.

 

 

I actually agree with some of the overall point made by 19C (crikey)

 

We played a "strong" team last night as IMHO I think the side still needs games together to get used to the system we play and also so that AP could look at the "fringe players/squad cover.

 

I also believe that with a settled side and the proper pre-season we shouldn't have HAD to do this and the idea of blooding some of our youngsters versus not progressing (like Arsenal do) might have had some value.

In fact Solent said Bournemouth made about 8 changes from their league team (and lost) but how much more benefit will they get from the fact that some of their kids now have proper game time.

 

The tight result showed that our reserves aren't good enough, which was probably more valuable than the result!

 

Could our academy team/reserve team have played last night - hahahaha - lol no way, but that's because they were pushed into the 1st team last year before they were ready. Maybe NEXT year it will work

[SaintRichmond]

My comment had nothing to do with the game last night (and no, I wasn't there). In fact, I didn't even mention the game, or Saints' performance. I was simply commenting on your assertion that it's a 'waste of time' (in capitals in your original post) sending 'moans and groans' into the club.

 

OK

 

It is just my opinion of course, but, IMHO, I think it a waste of time in sending negative thoughts to St Mary's, whether it be Upper OR Lower case:)

[RinNY]

Maybe you noticed that we only won last night by the skin of our teeth,whilst playing most of our first choice players? So why on earth you would think that our academy team would have produced anything but a huge loss defeats me. Losing is bad for any team or club, and it is our unwillingness to take that simple truth on board which created the complete lack of a winning spirit, which AP spotted immediately when he arrived. And now I read a supporter suggesting the virtue of going out to lose a few games. Even the Corinthians are playing to win these days.

 

 

Did we play "most of our first choice players"? I didn't think so. AP very rightly rested Jaidi and Trotman and gave Thomas and Perry a run at CB: it may have contributed to a certain defensive frailty, but it's important to keep those guys match fit and ready. Wotton is hardly first choice, nor is Saga, nor I'd suggest is Mills ... not securely anyway. None of those three have actually played much in recent games, or in Wotton's case only because Schneiderlin was injured. It was clearly a case of heeping a few key players as the core (Davis, Harding, Hammond, Lambert, arguably James), and putting some marginal players around them to keep them fit and see how they do; or in the case of Waigo helping him continue to adjust to English football.

 

After being very sceptical of AP through the Bristol match, I'm beginning to see some hope he may be getting it right. The first Torquay goal was a fluke, after all, without which we'd have won 2-1. We weren't at our best, but still ground out a result. And the players were really well prepared for the penalty shoot out and executed efficiently and well. All promising signs, on top of the Gillingham game. Let's just hope the team continue to build on these performances/results, rather than dropping back into old bad habits.