Lowe's Biggest Mistake

[Mole]

Whatever. All I know is that day in Cardiff was a delicious day and easily the best day of my football supporting life. Laughed and sung in the pubs all day, cried for abide with me, and stayed in the Millenium until they virtually had to drag us out, drinking it all in.

 

I don't need a no mark like you telling me it was some fluke or an abberration. I don't need you telling me it was all luck of the draw.

 

So are you going to answer - if our current idiot chairman had "nothing to do" with a cup final and a season from a manager he employed then surely he had "nothing to do" with our subsequent relegation from the other managers he employed. Personally I think he takes nearly all the blame for relegation.

 

You obviously think he doesn't. Right?

 

Because sorry my homophobic little friend, the only stupid agenda on display is yours.

 

I absolutely loved that cup run, only a fool with an agenda would disown our second greatest day for the sake of slagging off a posh chairman. That's an agenda.

 

Seriously, grow up.

 

The cup run was all down to us getting easy draws with an average squad playing above it's abilities because it was fit.

 

Lowe then failed to invest when the sun was shining.

 

Then we had 3 managers in one season and went down.

[saintwarwick]

 

1. The cup run was all down to us getting easy draws with an average squad playing above it's abilities because it was fit.

 

2. Lowe then failed to invest when the sun was shining.

 

3. Then we had 3 managers in one season and went down.

 

1. No such thing as an easy draw in the cup as the underdogs have nothing to lose.

 

2. We did invest but we did not fork out huge sums of money we did not have.

 

3. Agree with this as it was fact.

[Mole]

1. No such thing as an easy draw in the cup as the underdogs have nothing to lose.

 

2. We did invest but we did not fork out huge sums of money we did not have.

 

3. Agree with this as it was fact.

 

1. Can't be arsed to argue with you on this point.

 

2. We invested, but only in sqaud players. Lowes rigid wage structure ensured we'd never progress. We needed a couple of good players and got half a dozen mediocre players. It was a false economy and one that contributed greatly to our relegation.

[John Smith]

Whatever. All I know is that day in Cardiff was a delicious day and easily the best day of my football supporting life. Laughed and sung in the pubs all day, cried for abide with me, and stayed in the Millenium until they virtually had to drag us out, drinking it all in.

 

I don't need a no mark like you telling me it was some fluke or an abberration. I don't need you telling me it was all luck of the draw.

 

So are you going to answer - if our current idiot chairman had "nothing to do" with a cup final and a season from a manager he employed then surely he had "nothing to do" with our subsequent relegation from the other managers he employed. Personally I think he takes nearly all the blame for relegation.

 

You obviously think he doesn't. Right?

 

Because sorry my homophobic little friend, the only stupid agenda on display is yours.

 

I absolutely loved that cup run, only a fool with an agenda would disown our second greatest day for the sake of slagging off a posh chairman. That's an agenda.

 

Seriously, grow up.

 

Don't know why I'm bothering to feed the troll, but please read my post again, maybe even twice, because you are having a real whoosh moment, getting on your divine soapbox and trolling for all your worth.

 

Let's look at your post on McMenemy:

 

"McMenemy was reasonably successful at one club, once."

 

Reasonably successful?

 

So he took a rag tag, almost relegated to division 3 side to the FA Cup Final, which we won. (Out of interest, I'm not sure if you're giving credit to McMenemy, or are you praising the Chairman for this? Do you even know who the Chairman was in 1976? Now there's a little bit of trivia for the troll)

 

Texaco Cup finalists 1975

FA Cup winners 1976

Anglo-Italian League Cup Finalists 1976

League Cup Finalists 1979

League Two Runners Up 1978

DIV 1 RUNNERS UP 1984

3rd Round Cup Winners Cup 1977 (whilst in Div 2)

Qualified for Europe in 1984

Qualified for Europe 1985 (5th) Due to Heisel, we were unable to compete.

 

So, this manager that brought us all these great days out, was 'reasonable'? I'm sure Lawrie is chuffed that you think of all these achievements so highly. Surely, no bigger compliment have you paid to anyone that surpassed 'reasonable'.

 

Or are you saying that all this success was down to the Chairman (remember who it was yet?)

 

Your comments are truly worthless CB. If you've finished re-reading my original post, you'll have noticed that I wasn't rubbishing the 'achievement' but the idea that we should 'thank' Lowe for it. I pointed out the reasons for this stupid reasoning and gave praise where praise was due - The manager, his techniques, his fitness regime, arguably the two best Centre backs in the league and arguably the best keeper.

 

And from that, I have gone on to give my opinion that we should have gone on from there, if Lowe was the great visionary chairman that people are claiming he was for this FA Cup Final. And did we? No, two seasons later - RELEGATED! Divine Chairmanship?

 

Now, Let's compare that with the success in 1976. Did we sit on our success and invest in journeymen? Or did we push on and compete? Did we not succeed in competing?

 

Comparison - 2003, FA Cup Finalist 2 years later, relegated.

1976, FA Cup Winners, 2 years later, PROMOTED!

 

Can you spot the difference?

 

Now, I know I'm talking to a troll and obviously my logic is too infantile for you to follow, but I will re-iterate by adding the 1976 comparison.

 

In 1976, after winning the FA Cup, did our expecatations rise to extra ordinary proportions and expect to beat everyone and anyone, win the league, then win the 1st Division, win the Cup Winners Cup and then the European Cup the next year? NO!

 

And just like when we were runners up in 2003, we didn't expect to become World beaters, and as fans, our expectations were fairly moderate. Clinching a European spot in 6th was about as heady as some of us got. But surely, not even a troll like you expected RELEGATION 2 seasons later?

 

And yes, due to Lowes failure to invest in a couple (even one) good player after the Cup final drove Strachan out, inability to stabilise the next manager (Sturrock) and sacking him after just a couple of games later, the Hoddle fiasco, the Wigley fiasco, the scraping the barrell with Judas Harry ended in our relegation, WITH, 248 first team average players.

 

Like I said, maybe this reasoned argument is a little too infantile for you to find a trolling response. So, talk to you again nect time you come out from under your stone because you're bored.

 

Jog on.

 

(I don't bother doing rolly eye thingy's, I find them too infantile)

[John Smith]

The cup run was all down to us getting easy draws with an average squad playing above it's abilities because it was fit.

 

Lowe then failed to invest when the sun was shining.

 

Then we had 3 managers in one season and went down.

 

1. No such thing as an easy draw in the cup as the underdogs have nothing to lose.

 

2. We did invest but we did not fork out huge sums of money we did not have.

 

3. Agree with this as it was fact.

 

I am glad I raised this 'issue' now, because these two posts are spot on.

 

I do agree with you on number 1 saintwarwick, but would also add, that very few teams 'win' the FA Cup without some sort of luck along the way. I think we were 'lucky' with the draws we got. But as you rightly point out, we still had to win them, but also, I did point out that we scraped through the early rounds - Millwall anyone.

 

But thanks guys for not giving absolutely moronic responses. And it was nice to view some comparisons on the 'we have to thank Lowe for the FA Cup Final' debate.

 

1976 Chairman anyone?

[alpine_saint]

 

1976 Chairman anyone?

 

A.A. Woodford ?

[alpine_saint]

 

1976 Chairman anyone?

 

A.A. Woodford ?

[Frank's cousin]

I dont think anyone can argue against the fact that its always a mistake to 'stand still' in football, and not getting in 2-3 players better than what we had after the cup final was a mistake that probably ost us our Premiership place....ultimately, BUT is it a mistake that we did not as a club risk the expenditure we did not have? We would have had to have borrowed this money (approx 12 mil) before we even looked at the impact on wage demands - UP mentioned we spent approx 20 mil on players bewteen 2002-2004, but probably only 6 mil of that was NEW money eg the rest was from sales - we did not fund the club by debt, but by living within its means - I dont think that is a mistake - in fact woukld it not bettter all round if it was a requistie of the premier league and the FA/UEFA and FIFA that all clubs must live within their revenue streams and can not build up debts which are subsequently written off by sugar daddies? - a level playing field and all that...

 

We blame Lowe for not taking this 'risk' - but had we done so and it had not worked - eg Leeds - and we would be even more up the creek tahn we are now... which is not good. Its very easy to justify risk when its someone elses money and someone elses livelyhood, - especially as fans who yeran for teh glory that this risk might deliver even short term (there are still Leeds fans out there that say it was worth it!!!), but I am not one of them.

[Frank's cousin]

I dont think anyone can argue against the fact that its always a mistake to 'stand still' in football, and not getting in 2-3 players better than what we had after the cup final was a mistake that probably ost us our Premiership place....ultimately, BUT is it a mistake that we did not as a club risk the expenditure we did not have? We would have had to have borrowed this money (approx 12 mil) before we even looked at the impact on wage demands - UP mentioned we spent approx 20 mil on players bewteen 2002-2004, but probably only 6 mil of that was NEW money eg the rest was from sales - we did not fund the club by debt, but by living within its means - I dont think that is a mistake - in fact woukld it not bettter all round if it was a requistie of the premier league and the FA/UEFA and FIFA that all clubs must live within their revenue streams and can not build up debts which are subsequently written off by sugar daddies? - a level playing field and all that...

 

We blame Lowe for not taking this 'risk' - but had we done so and it had not worked - eg Leeds - and we would be even more up the creek tahn we are now... which is not good. Its very easy to justify risk when its someone elses money and someone elses livelyhood, - especially as fans who yeran for teh glory that this risk might deliver even short term (there are still Leeds fans out there that say it was worth it!!!), but I am not one of them.

[um pahars]

We would have had to have borrowed this money (approx 12 mil) before we even looked at the impact on wage demands - UP mentioned we spent approx 20 mil on players bewteen 2002-2004' date=' but probably only 6 mil of that was NEW money eg the rest was from sales - we did not fund the club by debt, but by living within its means - [/quote']

 

It is irrelevant where the circa £20m came from, be it a transfer kitty built up from operational profits over the years or the proceeds of player sales.

 

It was still available to be spent and it was how it was spent (and by whom) that was the problem, not how it was financed.

 

My argument was that rather than spend it on a quantity of mediocre players by a number of managers, who were close to being shipped out, (WGS in Jan 04 window and Sturrock in the Summer 04 window) it would have been better spent on fewer "star" players who would have improved the quality of the squad.

 

So we wouldn't have had to borrow this £12m, instead we should have spent the £20 that we had much more wisely.

 

As with this close season we had alternatives, and in a similar vein rather than splash out on 9/10 players (and associated fees, wages et al) we could have focussed it on fewer higher calibre players.

 

Neither way has a divine right to succeed, but let's not pretend we didn't have choices back then and that we didn't have choices this time around.

[um pahars]

We would have had to have borrowed this money (approx 12 mil) before we even looked at the impact on wage demands - UP mentioned we spent approx 20 mil on players bewteen 2002-2004' date=' but probably only 6 mil of that was NEW money eg the rest was from sales - we did not fund the club by debt, but by living within its means - [/quote']

 

It is irrelevant where the circa £20m came from, be it a transfer kitty built up from operational profits over the years or the proceeds of player sales.

 

It was still available to be spent and it was how it was spent (and by whom) that was the problem, not how it was financed.

 

My argument was that rather than spend it on a quantity of mediocre players by a number of managers, who were close to being shipped out, (WGS in Jan 04 window and Sturrock in the Summer 04 window) it would have been better spent on fewer "star" players who would have improved the quality of the squad.

 

So we wouldn't have had to borrow this £12m, instead we should have spent the £20 that we had much more wisely.

 

As with this close season we had alternatives, and in a similar vein rather than splash out on 9/10 players (and associated fees, wages et al) we could have focussed it on fewer higher calibre players.

 

Neither way has a divine right to succeed, but let's not pretend we didn't have choices back then and that we didn't have choices this time around.

[krissyboy31]

A.A. Woodford ?

 

I think it could have still been George Reader? Alan Woodford took over from him but I think it was late 70's, early 80's.

[krissyboy31]

A.A. Woodford ?

 

I think it could have still been George Reader? Alan Woodford took over from him but I think it was late 70's, early 80's.

[Lunatic Fridge]

Agree totally with J Smith and Um P - spot on and factually correct. The problem with some who post on this board (Gawd knows why?) is that they are in the main are jonnie come latelys and have no recall of the "real" position and image of the club in late 70's and early 80's by far the most successful in the club's history.

 

The short answer to this thread is Lowe's inability to run a football club, to take the proper decision to "invest" in the right sort of players for long term as many other club's/chairman have done. Examples being: Wigan, Blackburn, Hull, WBA. But there again their chairman were "football" people - not a failed or so-called businessman who has never run a major business in his life.

[Lunatic Fridge]

Agree totally with J Smith and Um P - spot on and factually correct. The problem with some who post on this board (Gawd knows why?) is that they are in the main are jonnie come latelys and have no recall of the "real" position and image of the club in late 70's and early 80's by far the most successful in the club's history.

 

The short answer to this thread is Lowe's inability to run a football club, to take the proper decision to "invest" in the right sort of players for long term as many other club's/chairman have done. Examples being: Wigan, Blackburn, Hull, WBA. But there again their chairman were "football" people - not a failed or so-called businessman who has never run a major business in his life.

[Wes Tender]

I came across this by Simon Jordan writing in the Guardian a couple of years back, at the time that Lowe was due to be deposed the first time around after relegation. It's still very pertinent now.

 

That's the bottom line. If your business agenda is not aligned with the football agenda, the club can't accelerate and fans will get at you. And if you can't use fan opinion as a useful reference point to every decision - not to court popularity or go bananas Goldberg/Ridsdale style - but as a genuine, useful business guide, you'll go backwards.

 

Lowe says, 'Criticism is part of the package of being a chairman' - a phrase that casts fans as hysterical know-nothings. I've made mistakes in my five years here, but the reason I'm not swinging from the Croydon flyover is because I've understood criticism, tried to learn from it, and can always point to my record to show my motivation is one-track. I came into the game at 32: if I hadn't made use of the natural exuberance and enthusiasm being a fan gives you, if I'd slotted into the background, kept quiet and become a boardroom nonentity, would my club have gone from administration into the Premiership within four years?

 

What it comes down to is this. If Rupert Lowe got football, got the proles who pay him to watch it, got the reasons why he's unpopular, he wouldn't be in the hole he's in now. And that's a positive sign for the club game, a sign of its strength and ability to self-regulate. So what does Rupert do next? He could avoid quick PR fixes and try, really try, to grasp that sticking to an ego, money-driven agenda will feed the negativity. Or he could agree a sale price and go back to a life of ruddy-faced luxury. Faced with those choices, even Rupert must know his time's up.

[Dalek2003]

The biggest mistake Lowe made was taking a risk on a totally unproven manager at premiership level, aka Sturrock. To then stick with Wigley was bishaer negligence.

[Delmary]

The biggest mistake Lowe made was taking a risk on a totally unproven manager at premiership level, aka Sturrock. To then stick with Wigley was bishaer negligence.

Thanks Glenda.

[Mole]

The biggest mistake Lowe made was taking a risk on a totally unproven manager at premiership level, aka Sturrock. To then stick with Wigley was bishaer negligence.

 

But what other alternative was there?:smt102

[Dalek2003]

But what other alternative was there?:smt102

 

There were alterantives to Sturrock. Obviously Glenn Hoddle was one, but not the only one.

[Mole]

There were alterantives to Sturrock. Obviously Glenn Hoddle was one, but not the only one.

 

Just for you Dalek. Happy bidding.

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SOUTHAMPTON-SIGNED-GLENN-HODDLE-10-x-8-PHOTO_W0QQitemZ310010347584QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item310010347584&_trkparms=72%3A1301%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

[Dark Munster]

The biggest mistake Lowe made was taking a risk on a totally unproven manager at premiership level, aka Sturrock. To then stick with Wigley was bishaer negligence.

 

Sturrock's record at Saints: P13 W5 D2 L6 (1.3 points per game = 50 for a season in prem). In some of those matches he had virtually the whole first team out injured.

 

Agree with the comment about Wigley though.

[Frank's cousin]

It is irrelevant where the circa £20m came from, be it a transfer kitty built up from operational profits over the years or the proceeds of player sales.

 

It was still available to be spent and it was how it was spent (and by whom) that was the problem, not how it was financed.

 

My argument was that rather than spend it on a quantity of mediocre players by a number of managers, who were close to being shipped out, (WGS in Jan 04 window and Sturrock in the Summer 04 window) it would have been better spent on fewer "star" players who would have improved the quality of the squad.

 

So we wouldn't have had to borrow this £12m, instead we should have spent the £20 that we had much more wisely.

 

As with this close season we had alternatives, and in a similar vein rather than splash out on 9/10 players (and associated fees, wages et al) we could have focussed it on fewer higher calibre players.

 

Neither way has a divine right to succeed, but let's not pretend we didn't have choices back then and that we didn't have choices this time around.

 

I think is in an over simplistic view though UP.... like it or not we had a wage structure in place which meant as a club we were able to break even most seasons or have 3-4 mil availbale for players etc - sometimes more if we sold, and as you yourself I believe some time ago worked out we did reinvest money from all sales.... yes I agree the various managers could all have bought more wisely WGS, especially had his share of duds, but the point is could we have gotten saha and Malbranque to come here on a basic of about 20K a week rising to about 30k with performanace and appearence bonuses? I dont think so and if they had been offered more then so would Neimi, Beatie and several others on teh books at teh time, breaking teh wage structure and opening the door for either 5-6 mil a year losses or £10 increasde per ticket...

 

NO one is naive right now - the only reason we have signed 11 young players now instead of 2 or 3 experienced platyesr is a) because its cheaper, and b0 in the hope that one or two of them will be good enough to replace lallana and Surman when they bugger off in January for much needed greenback.

 

I have just resigned myself to thefact that as a club we going through a bad period, financially crooked, and possibly heading for a further relegation, who knows... and yes I could look at that, get all worked up, shout and scream at the board, protest, staw away etc... all perfectly valid, but unlikely to ensure I get enjoyment from supporting the side.... or I can accept out fait at the moment because like it or hate, I understand the **** we are in and enjoy at the very least the kids passing that ball and at least trying to play the game it should be played - it probably wont bring success - we will probably lose the best of them, we will probably get beat more often than not by brute force, but What is the point of being a fan if you cant take the rough with smooth, if you cant support simply because its YOUR club and not have to worry about having egos massaged by aligning yourself with success only...like so many JCLs of the 'big four'?

 

This is my club since I was 6 , thats some 33 years of change, turmoil, little bits of success, more misery, Than i can remember, but above one thing has never changed, that feeling when the lads in red and white run out. Especially when I see kids trying to play in such a positive way.

 

(UP this rant not aimed at you by the way - just my feelings really - no longer got the energy for negativity)

[broncoboy]

Lowes biggest mistake being a ****

[um pahars]

I think is in an over simplistic view though UP.... like it or not we had a wage structure in place which meant as a club we were able to break even most seasons or have 3-4 mil availbale for players etc - sometimes more if we sold' date=' and as you yourself I believe some time ago worked out we did reinvest money from all sales.... yes I agree the various managers could all have bought more wisely WGS, especially had his share of duds, but the point is could we have gotten saha and Malbranque to come here on a basic of about 20K a week rising to about 30k with performanace and appearence bonuses? I dont think so and if they had been offered more then so would Neimi, Beatie and several others on teh books at teh time, breaking teh wage structure and opening the door for either 5-6 mil a year losses or £10 increasde per ticket... [/quote']

 

It is fairly simplistic, but it is also fairly realistic.

 

Obviously we're not privy to all the fine points of contracts and finances, but my main thrust is that rather than spend £20m on 10+ and then pay them £4k a week (or more each), we would have been better off spending that money on a smaller number of higher quality players.

 

This would have meant that both the transfer fees and wages could have been concentrated, giving us the ability to spend "big" on one or two quality signings.

 

There would not have been a guarantee of success if we went that way, (the star player could break his leg in his first match), but it was a possible alternative to the spread it wide and thin approach we adopted.

 

What also didn't help was the succession of managers towards the end of our stay in the top flight, all of whom having their favoured style of play and their favoured players.

 

Go back to when Redknapp/Wigley were here and remember what the squad looked like. It was full of medicority, all drawing a wage, yet not all able to play.

 

We weren't at all focussed or stable and our resources were spread too thinly by a succession of managers, all to the detrimen of the football on the pitch.

Edited 31 October, 2008 by um pahars

[Topcat]

Lowelife has made so many fundamental mistakes that it is impossible to pick one that is the worst. Just look at recent years...

 

1. The strategy of quantity instead of quality (um pahars posts)

2.Failing to keep WGS

3. Selecting Sturrock when he did not fit the "Lowe style"

4. Sacking Sturrock.

5. Appointing Wigley.

6. Hiring Redknapp then blocking his wheeling dealing to build a defence by making a profit in that Jan relegation period rather than providing a £1m or 2m more to Redknapp.

7. Only providing £120k for a striker in the 1st year down in the CCC which is the best year to have a chance of promotion.

8. Hiring Woodward & the ball juggler to undermine Redknapp and wasting £1m on that rather than investing in the 1st team.

9. Hiring Burley with his poor recent record in the CCC.

10. Reneging on his promise to Higginbotham of a new deal.

11. Sacking NP.

12. Hiring JP.

[SaintRichmond]

... Lowe's Biggest Mistake ???? ...

 

 

... Breathing in when the midwife slapped his Arse ............

[Tamesaint]

Lowe's biggest mistake?

 

Getting a PR agency to post pro lowe views on the old S4E website. Plants out !!!

[SaintRichmond]

Agree totally with J Smith and Um P - spot on and factually correct. The problem with some who post on this board (Gawd knows why?) is that they are in the main are jonnie come latelys and have no recall of the "real" position and image of the club in late 70's and early 80's by far the most successful in the club's history.

 

The short answer to this thread is Lowe's inability to run a football club, to take the proper decision to "invest" in the right sort of players for long term as many other club's/chairman have done. Examples being: Wigan, Blackburn, Hull, WBA. But there again their chairman were "football" people - not a failed or so-called businessman who has never run a major business in his life.

 

 

Agreed, and that is down to the basic fact that Lowe is a BUSINESSMAN, not a FOOTBALL MAN

 

I fully realise that is has to be run as a Business, but NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF THE PLAYERS ON THE PARK

 

At the start of this season, it WOULD have been possible to strike a happy medium of a mixture of YOUTH and EXPERIENCE, but Lowe put all his eggs in one basket, and insisted on a so called "Firesale", by getting rid of a lot of experienced players, Players that WOULD have got us more points, moved us up the table somewhat, and attracted circa 22000 to watch. He then insisted that the Academy Youth was the way forward, DESPITE many knowledgable Football people telling him otherwise. As per usual, in Lowe's opinion, he is never wrong.

 

Lowe's "methods" have ensured that a very good young, but inexperienced Team has struggled, and, of late, older Experienced players ( but not high Quality) have started to be drafted back in

 

So, Lowe has HAD to adapt his philosophy somewhat, albeit far too late IMHO