S-Clarke Posted 12 May, 2015 Share Posted 12 May, 2015 couple for saints and swansea JWP 1 Davis 0 Wanyama 3 Morgan 5.. I just cannot believe that goal scoring and goal threat are being used as reasons why we should have kept him. Tadic 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 12 May, 2015 Share Posted 12 May, 2015 Morgan 5.. I just cannot believe that goal scoring and goal threat are being used as reasons why we should have kept him. Tadic 7 tadic is not a CM (lallana replacement) morgan is in a different league Cork is a good player, good enough to be a cert for the team about to over take us. We should not have let him go. I believe the dire form of davis and JWP, cork would have been more than able to do a better job than we are seeing there is only 1 team in the recent form table below us....the comical Newcastle...that is how bad we have been Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 12 May, 2015 Share Posted 12 May, 2015 Morgan 5.. I just cannot believe that goal scoring and goal threat are being used as reasons why we should have kept him. Tadic 7 I think we need to be talking PL goals only here, the rest count for nothing much. Tadic has scored 4 league goals I think. Morgan and Victor 7 Tadic,Davis and JWP 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 12 May, 2015 Share Posted 12 May, 2015 Jack Cork is not a number 10. He is a Morgan/Wanyama type midfield player (Reed like as well). He would only have played through injury and suspension, he was not first choice in those positions which is fair enough - as you said, Morgan is in a different league. We will have had as much goal threat as we have at the moment with Jack Cork in the side. He is not the savior of football. He left for first team football, he could have stayed and signed a contract, but he wanted to play every week. No one did anything wrong, but of course a bad patch of form will bring trash like this to the surface. Because that's all it is. Player leaves club and does well elsewhere shocker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 12 May, 2015 Share Posted 12 May, 2015 (edited) Jack Cork is not a number 10. He is a Morgan/Wanyama type midfield player (Reed like as well). He would only have played through injury and suspension, he was not first choice in those positions which is fair enough - as you said, Morgan is in a different league. We will have had as much goal threat as we have at the moment with Jack Cork in the side. He is not the savior of football. He left for first team football, he could have stayed and signed a contract, but he wanted to play every week. No one did anything wrong, but of course a bad patch of form will bring trash like this to the surface. Because that's all it is. Player leaves club and does well elsewhere shocker. why is it trash? I believe (and thought at the time) that the club should have ensured he signed a new deal during the summer. Like we did with Fonte. We have given Clyne numerous deadlines and offered rodriguez multiple new deals. Granted, they are better players. we let a player go a few months ago and now he is playing better than much of our midfield for a side that will probably now over take us whilst we fight it out with newcastle to stay off the bottom of the form table....why isnt that a point to discuss on a message board.? is cork better than Vic and morgan - of course not he is better than davis and JWP who have both filled in/played in the CM role are we now leaking goals and the midfield (with those 2 in it) way off form - yes will that mean we miss out on Europe - seems that way you suggested many times that getting Europe would be MASSIVE for us and huge for our progression. it is fine margins in this league and seems we may have messed up with one too many. cork being one of them IMO Edited 12 May, 2015 by Batman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 12 May, 2015 Share Posted 12 May, 2015 why is it trash? I believe (and thought at the time) that the club should have ensured he signed a new deal during the summer. Like we did with Fonte. We have given Clyne numerous deadlines and offered rodriguez multiple new deals. Granted, they are better players. we let a player go a few months ago and now he is playing better than much of our midfield for a side that will probably now over take us whilst we fight it out with newcastle to stay off the bottom of the form table....why isnt that a point to discuss on a message board.? Personally I've nothing against letting Cork go but not in January where the possibilities of getting good replacement are lessened. To me we sacrificed quality for a measly 3 million £ in the short term. Depends why we need the 3 million I suppose, if it was to pay for Elia and Djuricic (who I think isn't a bad player) then the decision was questionable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simo Posted 12 May, 2015 Share Posted 12 May, 2015 (edited) I liked Cork and thought he did ok for us but let's not make out he'd of been our saviour had he stayed , scoring goals have been our problem since January not defensive midfield Edited 12 May, 2015 by simo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 12 May, 2015 Share Posted 12 May, 2015 why is it trash? I believe (and thought at the time) that the club should have ensured he signed a new deal during the summer. Like we did with Fonte. We have given Clyne numerous deadlines and offered rodriguez multiple new deals. Granted, they are better players. we let a player go a few months ago and now he is playing better than much of our midfield for a side that will probably now over take us whilst we fight it out with newcastle to stay off the bottom of the form table....why isnt that a point to discuss on a message board.? is cork better than Vic and morgan - of course not he is better than davis and JWP who have both filled in/played in the CM role are we now leaking goals and the midfield (with those 2 in it) way off form - yes will that mean we miss out on Europe - seems that way you suggested many times that getting Europe would be MASSIVE for us and huge for our progression. it is fine margins in this league and seems we may have messed up with one too many. cork being one of them IMO It's a minuscule thing to focus on really, I don't agree with what you are saying at all. I'm not saying Cork is a bad player, but he was the same player as plenty of others we had. He wouldn't have changed anything. But he was a good pro and a decent player, so he's not going to look poor for his new side. I believe Cork did get given a few deadlines and the club made the decision to get as much as they could, rather than lose him for nothing, as he was clearly not going to stay beyond this year. I don't see what anyone has done wrong here. He's a totally different player to JWP or Davis, in my opinion. As poor as they've been latley, they're a lot more agile and suttle on the ball and are able to play that number 10 role a little easier than someone like Cork, who wasn't the most technically gifted player in the world - and he'd probably admit that. But if we had a midfield of Morgan, Wanyama and Cork I don't exactly think that would help our goal threat, it would probably hinder it further. And whilst Europe would be massive for our progression, it's not the be all and end all if we don't make this unexpected step this year, which let's face it - it will be an unexpected step based on where we all thought we'd be. I think we'll still do it, got a feeling we'll be 6th next Sunday, but whatever does happen it won't be because of Jack flaming Cork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 12 May, 2015 Share Posted 12 May, 2015 It's a minuscule thing to focus on really, I don't agree with what you are saying at all. I'm not saying Cork is a bad player, but he was the same player as plenty of others we had. He wouldn't have changed anything. But he was a good pro and a decent player, so he's not going to look poor for his new side. I believe Cork did get given a few deadlines and the club made the decision to get as much as they could, rather than lose him for nothing, as he was clearly not going to stay beyond this year. I don't see what anyone has done wrong here. He's a totally different player to JWP or Davis, in my opinion. As poor as they've been latley, they're a lot more agile and suttle on the ball and are able to play that number 10 role a little easier than someone like Cork, who wasn't the most technically gifted player in the world - and he'd probably admit that. But if we had a midfield of Morgan, Wanyama and Cork I don't exactly think that would help our goal threat, it would probably hinder it further. And whilst Europe would be massive for our progression, it's not the be all and end all if we don't make this unexpected step this year, which let's face it - it will be an unexpected step based on where we all thought we'd be. I think we'll still do it, got a feeling we'll be 6th next Sunday, but whatever does happen it won't be because of Jack flaming Cork. Spot on. Whatever we've lacked recently it ain't Jack "goal machine" Cork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 12 May, 2015 Share Posted 12 May, 2015 Spot on. Whatever we've lacked recently it ain't Jack "goal machine" Cork. even though he has scored as many as davis, Wanyama and JWP combined. but yes, he is not the goal machine. he is a very good defensive midfielder and whilst we are shipping 2 goals a game and sit 1 place above newcastle in the form table, I honestly think he would have made a small difference. whether that would be enough for Europe or not (which is the slim margin we are now at) we will never know guess we will agree to disagree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 12 May, 2015 Share Posted 12 May, 2015 even though he has scored as many as davis, Wanyama and JWP combined. but yes, he is not the goal machine. he is a very good defensive midfielder and whilst we are shipping 2 goals a game and sit 1 place above newcastle in the form table, I honestly think he would have made a small difference. whether that would be enough for Europe or not (which is the slim margin we are now at) we will never know guess we will agree to disagree But you need to stop confusing PL goals and Cup goals. Jack Cork has scored 3 goals that count this season (ie in the PL) 2 for us (so we got the benefit) and 1 for Swansea. All of the rest just don't matter, if indeed there are any, Victor has scored 3 goals as well, some of them more important, because one of Jack's well it was a tap in when Sunderland were already a lot down. You don't just need to look at goals scored, you need to look at value of goals, a penalty in the 88th minute when you're already 3 up has nowhere near the value of a goal in a 1-0 cliffhanger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 12 May, 2015 Share Posted 12 May, 2015 (edited) But you need to stop confusing PL goals and Cup goals. Jack Cork has scored 3 goals that count this season (ie in the PL) 2 for us (so we got the benefit) and 1 for Swansea. All of the rest just don't matter, if indeed there are any, Victor has scored 3 goals as well, some of them more important, because one of Jack's well it was a tap in when Sunderland were already a lot down. You don't just need to look at goals scored, you need to look at value of goals, a penalty in the 88th minute when you're already 3 up has nowhere near the value of a goal in a 1-0 cliffhanger. you are right. My point on from that is about him being a very good defensive midfielder and whilst ours are injured or woefully off form and we let in 2 goals a game, we would be better placed with him as a saint than not. whether that would have been enough to secure 7th (and not swansea who he is playing very well for) we will never know Edited 12 May, 2015 by Batman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 12 May, 2015 Share Posted 12 May, 2015 you are right. My point on from that is about him being a very good defensive midfielder and whilst ours are injured or woefully off form and we let in 2 goals a game, we would be better placed with him as a saint than not. whether that would have been enough to secure 7th (and not swansea who he is playing very well for) we will never know Not only the solution to our creativity and goals problem, he's also the answer to our goalkeeping crisis. He's some player, this Jack Cork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svetigpung Posted 15 May, 2015 Share Posted 15 May, 2015 IMO us loosing Cork has played a major factor in our end of season dip. With him available when Morgan and Vic were unavailable (and Big Vic does collect his share of yellows) then we would have köpt our midfield stability and more inportantly we could have continued with Toby and Fonte as the tightest CB pairing available. Instead we moved the stability of the team around too much. I'm sure Ronald could have kept him happy if het old him he was in his plans. But No! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 15 May, 2015 Share Posted 15 May, 2015 Are we still going on about this? Ronald did tell him he was in his plans and he wanted him to stay as part of the squad, he was even offered a contract. He didn't want to just be part of the squad, he wanted to be a key member of the 11 and play every week. He wouldn't have got that here, fair enough he could have waited around for 6 months to see if injuries popped up, or they were sold in the summer.....but he's a bit better than that, and to credit him he chased football rather than being a squad player. As has been alluded to above, we're in an impossible position to have players of Corks' ability as squad players, in my opinion. We're not a big enough club for that, so we will always suffer from the ''lack of quality squad'' depth argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baird of the land Posted 15 May, 2015 Share Posted 15 May, 2015 Are we still going on about this? Ronald did tell him he was in his plans and he wanted him to stay as part of the squad, he was even offered a contract. He didn't want to just be part of the squad, he wanted to be a key member of the 11 and play every week. He wouldn't have got that here, fair enough he could have waited around for 6 months to see if injuries popped up, or they were sold in the summer.....but he's a bit better than that, and to credit him he chased football rather than being a squad player. As has been alluded to above, we're in an impossible position to have players of Corks' ability as squad players, in my opinion. We're not a big enough club for that, so we will always suffer from the ''lack of quality squad'' depth argument. What was the excuse for not offering him a contract in the summer? Would Fonte have been happy if we'd strung him along and told him to prove himself worthy of a new contract over coming 6 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 15 May, 2015 Share Posted 15 May, 2015 Fonte was first choice for first team last season and this, and club capt. Cork was back up/ squad player in an area where we have several good young players coming through. You may not agree with decision but surely understandable for a new manager to compare him with the developing other players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 15 May, 2015 Share Posted 15 May, 2015 Fonte was first choice for first team last season and this, and club capt. Cork was back up/ squad player in an area where we have several good young players coming through. You may not agree with decision but surely understandable for a new manager to compare him with the developing other players? Cork had always played a good number of games and wasn't behind academy players in the pecking order, ever. We can water him down to be a bit part squad player but the reality is that it was never the case and with Schneiderlin and possibly Wanyama being in high demand in the summer, would we be better off in having Cork? Absolutely, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 15 May, 2015 Share Posted 15 May, 2015 Cork had always played a good number of games and wasn't behind academy players in the pecking order, ever. We can water him down to be a bit part squad player but the reality is that it was never the case and with Schneiderlin and possibly Wanyama being in high demand in the summer, would we be better off in having Cork? Absolutely, IMO. Even with one of our two CM players out he didn't always start, an acedemy player JWP has been picked over him. To be honest, Harrison Reed away at Newcastle was probably similar standard to Cork. A decent reliable player, and I'm sure good enough to have some game time but has his faults. You ask if we need him if VW and MS leave...I would hope they would be replaced with players better than Cork. We will never know but wouldn't be surprised if Reed could have done as well as Cork if he had been playing regularly for Swansea. I have a lot of respect for Cork going somewhere where there weren't better players blocking his place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 15 May, 2015 Share Posted 15 May, 2015 Even with one of our two CM players out he didn't always start, an acedemy player JWP has been picked over him. To be honest, Harrison Reed away at Newcastle was probably similar standard to Cork. A decent reliable player, and I'm sure good enough to have some game time but has his faults. You ask if we need him if VW and MS leave...I would hope they would be replaced with players better than Cork. We will never know but wouldn't be surprised if Reed could have done as well as Cork if he had been playing regularly for Swansea. I have a lot of respect for Cork going somewhere where there weren't better players blocking his place. Every manager we have had trusted Cork to do a job. We won a lot of games with him in the side, some big victories as well. I think you're over hyping Reed a little. Koeman has used him sparingly at best, even at times when either Wanyama or Schneiderlin have been unavailable. Cork is a better, proven player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 16 May, 2015 Share Posted 16 May, 2015 Every manager we have had trusted Cork to do a job. We won a lot of games with him in the side, some big victories as well. I think you're over hyping Reed a little. Koeman has used him sparingly at best, even at times when either Wanyama or Schneiderlin have been unavailable. Cork is a better, proven player. ...which informed his decision to try and get more game time elsewhere, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 16 May, 2015 Share Posted 16 May, 2015 ...which informed his decision to try and get more game time elsewhere, right? Not sure what you mean. The argument from NickG that he was a bit part 6th choice CM or whatever is the bit I'm arguing against. Why, when and how Cork decided to leave, I don't know and never claimed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 16 May, 2015 Share Posted 16 May, 2015 You are twisting things. There is no way Cork was seen as 6th choice. He certainly wasn't first 11 when everyone is fit. He is much more proven than Reed, and probably a better player. However when Reed has been used in odd games (Cork often wasn't that good when playing odd games, was his best with a run of games). Such as Newcastle he looked very good. We clearly have different opinions on Cork, I think he is over rated on here. Doesn't mean I don't like him nor does it mean he isn't decent player. I just think he is good prem midfielder bit limited - doesn't excel in any area and plenty better. I would prefer he was still here and part of squad but respect the club for offering contract but with honesty on role he would play. Respect him for seeing less competition at Swansea and moving for first team place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 16 May, 2015 Share Posted 16 May, 2015 Not sure what you mean. The argument from NickG that he was a bit part 6th choice CM or whatever is the bit I'm arguing against. Why, when and how Cork decided to leave, I don't know and never claimed to. He left because we don't have any dreams or ambition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintsteve7 Posted 16 May, 2015 Share Posted 16 May, 2015 I think the thing that sticks with me is the fact we took the £3m instead of keeping him until the end of the season. Did we need £3m that much?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 16 May, 2015 Author Share Posted 16 May, 2015 I think the thing that sticks with me is the fact we took the £3m instead of keeping him until the end of the season. Did we need £3m that much?! yep might have been better to keep him and let him go on a free IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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