Sour Mash Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/01/isil-plotting-to-use-drones-for-nuclear-attack-on-west/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirleysfc Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 What you need to remember is that there are posters on here that think terrorism, anti-Semitism, gender segregation, the encouragement of jihad are all a price worth paying for the Islamic takeover of our towns and cities. Nope, you've made that all up. You really are odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 What you need to remember is that there are posters on here that think terrorism, anti-Semitism, gender segregation, the encouragement of jihad are all a price worth paying for the Islamic takeover of our towns and cities. Your credibility was already very low with this stupendously stupid statement you now have none whatsoever. There is not a single poster on here who's views from their posts could be accused of any of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/01/isil-plotting-to-use-drones-for-nuclear-attack-on-west/ Standard scare story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 Standard scare story. Maybe, but dicussed and debated by President of United States and British PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 Standard scare story. Agree, nothing new here, terrorist group to use technology to further its evil aims, well who would have expected that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 Nope, you've made that all up. You really are odd. Right, so you don't want an increase in the culture that brings us all those things? You should have said so earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirleysfc Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 Right, so you don't want an increase in the culture that brings us all those things? Ok, so what do you mean by this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 Right, so you don't want an increase in the culture that brings us all those things? You should have said so earlier. Stop being a total d***head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 Right, so you don't want an increase in the culture that brings us all those things? You should have said so earlier. What you do is the other side of the coin to what soggy does. You're both a bit mental and you both invent things to support your opposing arguments. It's really odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirleysfc Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 What you do is the other side of the coin to what soggy does. You're both a bit mental and you both invent things to support your opposing arguments. It's really odd. He must be on a wind-up, surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 Ok, so what do you mean by this? He is attempting (badly) to equate what he imagines Islamic culture to be, with what might be defined as a 'terrorist culture' - as if they were one and the same thing. Some might say that is a rather simplistic interiptation of the situation! It may well also be that the sight and sound of people with different skins colours and accents walking the same streets as he does alarms him. But few would dispute that our old nation is indeed rapidly changing and this is unsettling for many - this type of fear is called "Metathesiophobia" by the way and there is no known cure alas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 Agree, nothing new here, terrorist group to use technology to further its evil aims, well who would have expected that. The President of the United States and the British Prime Minister meet to discuss plans to deal with a nuclear attack by Islamic terrorists and you think it 'nothing new', not newsworthy, just an every day thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 What you do is the other side of the coin to what soggy does. You're both a bit mental and you both invent things to support your opposing arguments. It's really odd. What have I invented or made up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 Ok, so what do you mean by this? Islamic immigration brings us all those things I've listed. Do you want a continued spread of this immigration and the culture it brings with it or do you want it stopped? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 Stop being a total d***head. No answer, so you resort to abuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 No answer, so you resort to abuse. People have given you loads of answers but you've ignored them, denied the answers existed and then invented things that you imagine people have said. He's right you are being a d*ckhead and that's from someone who has had some sympathy with some of the points you were making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirleysfc Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 Islamic immigration brings us all those things I've listed. Do you want a continued spread of this immigration and the culture it brings with it or do you want it stopped? That simple is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 People have given you loads of answers but you've ignored them, denied the answers existed and then invented things that you imagine people have said. He's right you are being a d*ckhead and that's from someone who has had some sympathy with some of the points you were making. I get it, because I showed you up when you couldn't find any examples of a moderate backlash to terrorism you now don't agree with my posts and are upset. Fair enough. Still no example of what I've made up either, but that's no surprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 That simple is it? Yes. Any answer to my question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 (edited) I get it, because I showed you up when you couldn't find any examples of a moderate backlash to terrorism you now don't agree with my posts and are upset. Fair enough. Still no example of what I've made up either, but that's no surprise. This is what I'm talking about. You ignore the definition that you didn't like and then claim that there was no backlash because you didn't like the type of the backlash and thus say that one did not exist- not a single other poster on this thread has expressed any agreement with your absurd position. You quite clearly made up the guff posted earlier about jihad support being a price worth paying for the Islamic takeover of Britain. Edited 2 April, 2016 by hypochondriac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirleysfc Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 Yes. Any answer to my question? Are you saying all Muslims should be stopped from entering the UK/Europe? What about homegrown terrorists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 I get it, because I showed you up when you couldn't find any examples of a moderate backlash to terrorism you now don't agree with my posts and are upset. Fair enough. Still no example of what I've made up either, but that's no surprise. It would be difficult to provide an example of what does not exist. Show us a single post wher any poster has said they support terrorism, the islamification of Britain, or any of the other imagined things you state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 This is what I'm talking about. You ignore the definition that you didn't like and then claim that there was no backlash- not a single other poster on this thread has expressed any agreement with your absurd position. You quite clearly made up the guff posted earlier about jihad support being a price worth paying for the Islamic takeover of Britain. I didn't ignore it though - I debated it for three + pages, you ignored the definition I put up though. Both Welk and Batman have agreed with my position on it, so its clearly not that absurd, whilst you find yourself in with Sad Old Git, says a lot really. But people do see support of Jihad as a price worth paying for Islamic immigration, you don't get one without the other. Unfortunately, neither you nor I get to pick and choose the bits we want/don't want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 Are you saying all Muslims should be stopped from entering the UK/Europe? What about homegrown terrorists? So no answer to my question, fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 2 April, 2016 Author Share Posted 2 April, 2016 If memory serves I'm not so sure that you ever have made much of a point about oppossing homophobia. Nevertheless, I do symaptise with your sense of confusion about the sheer complexity of life in the modern multi-culteral Britain. It seems to me that immigrants arriving here must show respect for, and adapt to, this society's core (often liberal) values. It goes without saying that they, like everyone else, must also abide with UK law - or face the consequences. We on the other hand should respect their right to worship the religion of their choice and try to comprehend the different culture they come from. Where the these objectives clash then existing British law and the democratically expressed will of the majority must prevail. As ever a sense of moderaton and mutual respect is key. It would be so much simplier if we could somehow go back to a point in the past where everyone in the UK followed the same religion, exhibited the same skin colour and shared a similar set of values and beliefs. We can never go back to that monoculture past for a number of reasons alas - not the least of which being that this Britain of the imaginaton never really existed in the first place! Putting my amateur historian's hat on, I predict that what will happen here over time is that Britain will again successfuly absorb this latest wave of immigration just as it has done so many times in the past. Whether they be: Saxon, Viking, Jewish, Norman, Huguenot, Caribbean or Islamic - our history suggests that eventually these islands have a way of consuming newcomers and turning them into Britains. That is what I hope happens anyway because I don't see a better alternative on offer from the likes of you or Sour. A future Britain that kind of resembles that famous old Coca Cola advert - if you are old enough to remember it. Top post!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 It would be difficult to provide an example of what does not exist. Show us a single post wher any poster has said they support terrorism, the islamification of Britain, or any of the other imagined things you state. They support the spread of a culture that brings all those things to our shores. You don't get to pick and choose the bits you want/don't want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 2 April, 2016 Author Share Posted 2 April, 2016 I didn't ignore it though - I debated it for three + pages, you ignored the definition I put up though. Both Welk and Batman have agreed with my position on it, so its clearly not that absurd, whilst you find yourself in with Sad Old Git, says a lot really. But people do see support of Jihad as a price worth paying for Islamic immigration, you don't get one without the other. Unfortunately, neither you nor I get to pick and choose the bits we want/don't want. Hmmmm interesting comparison. I think you will find that a lot more people agree with me than you would like to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 Are you saying all Muslims should be stopped from entering the UK/Europe? What about homegrown terrorists? We should wage war on Islam wherever we see it and then transport millions of British Muslims to the east on special trains - let's call them "Transports" shell we? Image of one dangerous proto terrorist Europe is now quite safe from: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirleysfc Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 So no answer to my question, fair enough. Ah, your standard response to a question you don't want to answer. I don't think it's as simple as you're suggesting. Are you going to answer my questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirleysfc Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 We should wage war on Islam wherever we see it and then transport millions of British Muslims to the east on special trains - let's call them "Transports" shell we? Image of one dangerous proto terrorist Europe is now quite safe from: You do realise that's not what I'm suggesting... I'm asking questions of SM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 wage war on islam...yes, that is exactly what is being suggested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 You do realise that's not what I'm suggesting... I'm asking questions of SM! Yes I know - adjust your irony filter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 Ah, your standard response to a question you don't want to answer. I don't think it's as simple as you're suggesting. Are you going to answer my questions? I stop the spread of the culture that brings us these things. You wouldn't though. Fair enough, each to their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirleysfc Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 Yes I know - adjust your irony filter! Cool - that's what I was hoping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirleysfc Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 I stop the spread of the culture that brings us these things. You wouldn't though. Fair enough, each to their own. So you would ban all Muslims entering the UK and deport those that are already here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackFrost Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 The President of the United States and the British Prime Minister meet to discuss plans to deal with a nuclear attack by Islamic terrorists and you think it 'nothing new', not newsworthy, just an every day thing. Good effort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 I didn't ignore it though - I debated it for three + pages, you ignored the definition I put up though. Both Welk and Batman have agreed with my position on it, so its clearly not that absurd, whilst you find yourself in with Sad Old Git, says a lot really. But people do see support of Jihad as a price worth paying for Islamic immigration, you don't get one without the other. Unfortunately, neither you nor I get to pick and choose the bits we want/don't want. The fact I agree with soggy on this despite thinking he's a buffoon on 99% of issues regarding this matter should tell you a lot. I haven't seen either whelk or batman saying there has been no sort of backlash from any Muslims against terrorism. Do you have the post numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 2 April, 2016 Author Share Posted 2 April, 2016 The fact I agree with soggy on this despite thinking he's a buffoon on 99% of issues regarding this matter should tell you a lot. I haven't seen either whelk or batman saying there has been no sort of backlash from any Muslims against terrorism. Do you have the post numbers? Yes it should tell you that you are 99% wrong on the other issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 Yes it should tell you that you are 99% wrong on the other issues. See. If even I agree with someone as deluded as soggy then there must be something in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 The fact I agree with soggy on this despite thinking he's a buffoon on 99% of issues regarding this matter should tell you a lot. I haven't seen either whelk or batman saying there has been no sort of backlash from any Muslims against terrorism. Do you have the post numbers? I did say I didn't think there has been a backlash. I know there have been posts about definition. But Molenbeek hideaway and culture suggests not all are appalled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
van Hanegem Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 Well I don't remember claiming that modern British society has yet achieved that vision of idealised harmony we saw back in the old Cola advert. Neither do I recall saying that the process of assimilating new generations of immigration into British society is bound to be some quick and relativly painless expierence. Far from it. What I do say is that it is indeed possible for people from (very) different backgrounds and religious beliefs to live and work together peacefully - I base that claim not only on the study of the long history of these islands, but also from what I see happening in my very own family today. I have not alas read the specific book you mention. There are exceptions of course, but I have to inform you that most British Muslims I have encountered in my life neither seek, nor methinks would wish, to live in what you describe as a "parallel society". The majority respect the values and traditions of this nation, are generaly law-abiding, hard working and want little more than to be left alone to get on with their lives - so just like the rest of us then. But if you have some thought-out proposal for the creation of a better and more socially cohesive future for Britain and Europe - one that doesn't result in segregation, seeing yet more children drowning in the Medditerrean, and the construction of a Sparkhill Ghetto perhaps, then I shall of course be happy to consider the matter. You don't have to defend yourself Charlie, I'm just interested in your opinion on these matters. As a Dutchman I'm used to live in a multi cultural society and I still like it as I believe it's a good thing when a society opens up for other influences in order to enrich itself. I might be wrong but I guess you look upon this the same way as I do. However, it doesn't mean that I close my eyes for the problems we have with migrants from islamic countries (mainly from Morocco and Turkey). We have them for more than 40 years now with the 4th generation coming and still you can't say that the majority has integrated. The racist views on blacks, jews, gays etc. are shocking, their overrepresentation in jail sentences and unemployment figures despite the nurturing and positive discrimination from the government, it is all too clear they're failing to adept. Mind you, off course there are also examples of them who do adept because they're able to leave their background. Especially the girls who grab the chances offered to get an education are offering a glimpse of hope. But mingling with non-muslims is a long way off for most of them and in my opinion that's the only way to break up the walls their islamic background has built carefully around them. I know some so-called moderate moslims, nice blokes who drink a glass of beer and don't think every Dutch girl in a short skirt is a whore. They can even stand a joke about their belief but ask them what they will do to their sisters when they would leave their religion... Well, they wouldn't stone them anymore to put it in a positive way. It looks like we have to wait another 40 years before they wake up... I dislike any form of religion (like Matt Johnson from The The wrote a long time ago: "it's why human beings are still walking on all fours, it's why they have to worship or to damn the things they do not understand") but I don't have any problem with someones beliefs as long as there's no harm done to others or to norms and values of a society. There's a difference between following religion and someones faith. To me it seems that migrants from islamic countries are holding on far to much to the rules of their religion which doesn't fit in the tolerant (I don't like this word but I can't come up with a better one) and open European societies. We had the Enlightenment a long time ago and we got rid of most of the bullsh*t of the catholic and protestant church and we shouldn't allow the islam to go on warpspeed to put us back in time... Saudi Arabia refuses to give refugees shelter but they're willing to give millions to built mosques in Germany and Holland, why is that? I don't have an instant solution to alter the current situation off course but it's clear that we have to learn from all the past decades when things went wrong. We don't want to end up like the Swedes whose society is completely wrecked and who are now willing to sent away tens of thousands of refugees. In the refugee shelters in Holland we see the same sh*t: rape of women travelling alone, christians and gays being molested and racist views upon different coloured people. So we have to find a way to detoxify those infected with too much poison from their religion and culture before they take a step in our societies. I know this sounds a bit weird but hey, the Norwegians are already doing it by showing the "testosteronebombs" pictures of women with exciting dresses while telling them these ladies are not offering their bodies... It shouldn't be that difficult to make a complete program out of this and off course there should be this sanction: when you're not able to comply with the rules you'll go back to the godforsaken place you came from. Or am I being too harsh now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 2 April, 2016 Share Posted 2 April, 2016 http://www.aljazeera.com/blogs/asia/2016/03/glaring-hate-pakistan-religious-160329092837385.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 (edited) You're right, this discussion is off topic, my bad... Maybe I can make things up to the others by giving this link: http://www.npo.nl/het-groot-brittann.../VPWON_1223403 It's a contribution from Sathnam Sanghera to a Dutch televisionseries on Great Britain from 2015 in which you can see and hear members of Ukip talk about a Brexit (if you don't want to see it all, skip to the 29th minute). After seeing this I could imagine you would like to vote "no" just to tease the idiot with his white and red tie. But then your vote will be based on an emotion and that's never a good thing when it comes to politics. I remembered this episode Charlie because of your comment on British muslims. Sanghera interviews one Simon Heffer from the Daily Mail (I know, I know, right wing and so on) who wrote a biography on his friend Enoch Powell. In this interview they talk about the integration of different migrant groups, saying Powell was wrong about sikhs and afro-caribbean who clearly integrated well. If I understand it right, Heffer is saying this is not the case with muslims who came with too many to integrate. Do you think he's wrong when you look beyond your own working and family relationships? Just as well there might be no problems with muslims in England at all because like you said: they are predominently from Pakistan or Bangladesh. I've travelled through Indonesia several times and was always impressed with the kindness of it's inhabitants who are mostly muslim. Only of late things are changing in some parts of Indonesia due to Saudi's funding a more fundamentalist approach of their belief. I understand you don't want to trivialize the issue of antisemitism and I know you mean well. Maybe I've met too many Dutchmen looking away from the problem... I'll give you another example: there are schools in our big cities where classrooms are dominated by kids with an islamic background and because of that it happens more and more that history teachers can't teach about the holocaust because the kids start yelling that Hitler was the good guy or because the parents of these kids complain about these lessons. You can hear Dutchmen react like: "well, look at the Feyenoord fans who shout "Hamas, Hamas, all the Jews need gas" when they play against Ajax (their fans call themselves Jews as a nickname). This is a totally different problem and it buggers me that it's used as some sort of excuse for the problems at these schools. I'm acquainted with a teacher who works with these kids and he laughed at me when I asked him how he managed to deal with them. He said: "you really think that I teach them? We just do some nice things, they're to stupid or unwillingly to learn anything after all..." I'm not saying all muslims are engaged in an attempt to obtain world domination. May God spare us from that... I've shown you the resolution of Strasbourg of '75 which stands for oil in exchange for more muslim immigration in Europe, I've told you Saudi Arabia funds Isis and refuses to give shelter to refugees (well, they had 561 refugees according to the UNHCR last time I looked...), you can look for yourself on the internet what they are doing in Indonesia (for example http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/05/in...ia/05INDO.html) and how they are funding mosques in Europe. If you want to speak of a central power at work you don't have to look any further than the Saudi's and you can easily drop the word "sinister". If that's not enough for you to be convinced than I guess you also believe there are still weapons of mass destruction in Iraq... (just joking Charlie ) I intend to reply to the above post (from the 'EU Referendum' thread) here because this seems a more appropriate place to do so. The story you relate of the Jewish 'holocaust' becoming a near impossible subject to teach in Dutch classrooms today is a utterly deplorable one. I would consider this to be totaly unacceptable here. In the UK the history of the holocaust is a mandatory subject that must be taught in all state schools as part of our national ciriculm - indeed all the (teenage) children I know have certainly been taught this aspect of 20th Century history as part of their 'Key Stage 3' education. I would surgest that expierence with the British press indicates that stories of this ilk are not always to be relied upon as fully accurate portrayals of the true situation as the press (everywhere one suspects) do tend towards sensationalism don't they? Perhaps these incidents are more the exception rather than the rule in Dutch classrooms - I certainly do hope so. As for UK antisemitism in general, the interminable IsrealI-Palestinian conflict has in a sense 'allowed' some on the left of our politics to express a passionate criticism of Jewish people and the state of Isreal (or the Israeli Government anyway) that few would dare to have expressed in the immediate post war era wth its horrific images of Belson sheered into our collective memory. I'm not one for simply 'taking sides' here as I regard the issue as a complex one and more of a tradgedy for all concerned rather than only one side. However, the asymmetrical nature of this conflict between mighty Isreal and the relatively enfeebled Palestinians does tend to promote a certain sympathy towards the (Arab) "little guy" - rigthly or wrongly the British always do love a underdog. Re the role Suadi Arabia plays in promoting international terrorism, I have read the links provided but must nevertheless admit that I still don't really feel especially qualified in all honesty to add much to the debate as the subject is clearly resistent to any simplistic analysis -- indeed a wise teacher once advised me that when you have nothing to say then it is best to say nothing. I will venture however that the great Sunni/Shia divide that lays in the heart of Islam is obviously key to understanding the matter. Not being the religious type myself I do struggle somewhat to immerse myself very deeply in the rather arcane and intensely dogmatic disagreements that true believers so often tend to exhibit. Yes, I probably should make more of a effort here. As for Simon Heffer and the ever contraversial Enouh Powell, Heffer is one of those journalists who always write with their own (Conservative) agenda firmly in mind and Powell was a failed politician best remembered now perhaps for his notorious "rivers of blood" speach. Opinions differ of course, but I have not observed myself that the streets of modern Britain do actualy flow with the blood of racially spilt violence - although I understand of course that Powell was speaking figuratively and the UK is far from a perfect and fully "at ease with itself" society. Do you know any that are? So in conclusion, I consider it reasonable to state that some British Muslims have become successfully integrated into our modern secular society while others - often radical young converts to this faith - obviously have not. My personal experience of life in modern Britain leads me to believe that the former group far outnumber the latter. Other opinions are available! . Edited 3 April, 2016 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 One thing to bear in mind, is that the extreme versions of Islam pre-date the creation of the state of Israel, pre-date the lust for oil and pre-date the wests intervention in the middle east. There is no doubt these events haven't helped and have made things worse, but lets not pretend these are the root causes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 3 April, 2016 Author Share Posted 3 April, 2016 As you say, they have made things worse, a lot worse. They may not be the root causes of the problem but they are certainly helping the recruitment drive for radicals. The root causes as you say existed a very long time ago when the world was a very, very different place. Things move on. Many religions have mellowed since then. When people feel that they are under threat they will inevitably become defensive (ie the Israelis) and attitudes polarise. Clearly the vast majority of Muslims want to live in peace and harmony with the rest of the world but we play into the hands of the factions who see The West as an evil to be irradicated. Before I get jumped on by the usual suspects this is not about apportioning blame, it is about being smarter about how we handle the situation going forward. And no, I am not talking about sitting down and having a cup of tea, I am talking about finding a way of co-existing on the planet that doesn't entail constant warring and destruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 The fact I agree with soggy on this despite thinking he's a buffoon on 99% of issues regarding this matter should tell you a lot. I haven't seen either whelk or batman saying there has been no sort of backlash from any Muslims against terrorism. Do you have the post numbers? Posts 2746 and 2762. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 Posts 2746 and 2762. Can't see batman saying that from that post. Whelk I'll give you- though I disagree with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
van Hanegem Posted 3 April, 2016 Share Posted 3 April, 2016 I intend to reply to the above post (from the 'EU Referendum' thread) here because this seems a more appropriate place to do so. The story you relate of the Jewish 'holocaust' becoming a near impossible subject to teach in Dutch classrooms today is a utterly deplorable one. I would consider this to be totaly unacceptable here. In the UK the history of the holocaust is a mandatory subject that must be taught in all state schools as part of our national ciriculm - indeed all the (teenage) children I know have certainly been taught this aspect of 20th Century history as part of their 'Key Stage 3' education. I would surgest that expierence with the British press indicates that stories of this ilk are not always to be relied upon as fully accurate portrayals of the true situation as the press (everywhere one suspects) do tend towards sensationalism don't they? Perhaps these incidents are more the exception rather than the rule in Dutch classrooms - I certainly do hope so. As for UK antisemitism in general, the interminable IsrealI-Palestinian conflict has in a sense 'allowed' some on the left of our politics to express a passionate criticism of Jewish people and the state of Isreal (or the Israeli Government anyway) that few would dare to have expressed in the immediate post war era wth its horrific images of Belson sheered into our collective memory. I'm not one for simply 'taking sides' here as I regard the issue as a complex one and more of a tradgedy for all concerned rather than only one side. However, the asymmetrical nature of this conflict between mighty Isreal and the relatively enfeebled Palestinians does tend to promote a certain sympathy towards the (Arab) "little guy" - rigthly or wrongly the British always do love a underdog. Re the role Suadi Arabia plays in promoting international terrorism, I have read the links provided but must nevertheless admit that I still don't really feel especially qualified in all honesty to add much to the debate as the subject is clearly resistent to any simplistic analysis -- indeed a wise teacher once advised me that when you have nothing to say then it is best to say nothing. I will venture however that the great Sunni/Shia divide that lays in the heart of Islam is obviously key to understanding the matter. Not being the religious type myself I do struggle somewhat to immerse myself very deeply in the rather arcane and intensely dogmatic disagreements that true believers so often tend to exhibit. Yes, I probably should make more of a effort here. As for Simon Heffer and the ever contraversial Enouh Powell, Heffer is one of those journalists who always write with their own (Conservative) agenda firmly in mind and Powell was a failed politician best remembered now perhaps for his notorious "rivers of blood" speach. Opinions differ of course, but I have not observed myself that the streets of modern Britain do actualy flow with the blood of racially spilt violence - although I understand of course that Powell was speaking figuratively and the UK is far from a perfect and fully "at ease with itself" society. Do you know any that are? So in conclusion, I consider it reasonable to state that some British Muslims have become successfully integrated into our modern secular society while others - often radical young converts to this faith - obviously have not. My personal experience of life in modern Britain leads me to believe that the former group far outnumber the latter. Other opinions are available! . Thanks for your reply Charlie. I was thinking about leaving for Riyadh in Saudi Arabia to capture a religious leader, inject him wiith sodium pentothal and film his confession in order to make things clear to you. But hey, we have youtube these days so I can spare myself the trip: Ok, ok, this clip is manipulative like hell but at least you can hear them dreaming of world domination. At this moment it's still the Vatican which has the most power in the religious world (they even have a chair in the UN!) and I'm not happy with that either. But if I had to choose I'd rather be dominated by the pope then by some caliph, though it would be uncomfortable to wear a chastity belt all the time... Off course these antisemitic incidents are more the exception rather than the rule in Dutch classrooms, like I said: it just happens in some classrooms in the big cities and only if kids with an islamic background are the majority. We don't have tabloids like The Sun in Holland which are just looking for sensation. There's one newspaper (the Telegraaf) of which you could say they're looking for sensation but it never gets that ugly like you're used to in England. No, even the serious press reports about the problems with these kids, just like they did after Brussels (and Paris, Madrid, London, New York) when these kids went cheering "Allahu Akhbar..." Knowing that the Dutch press is downplaying on these reports (less than the German press which censors itself in a ridiculous way but still...) it's not that hard to understand there's more happening than we know. Like it's not that hard to assume that there are potential "homegrown terrorists" among them as these kids get the idea that they are rejected and discriminated. Their parents don't look after them (when I lived in Amsterdam there were always kids on the street late at night, even 5 and 6 year olds) and with all the satellite dishes on these flats you know they're only watching foreign tv channels where they also can see the imbeciles from the clip above. You could say they're brainwashed in a bad way and too often they're lost in petty crime and even hard crime (drugs). We're confronted this last decade with the "Mocro Wars", Moroccan gangs who are slaughtering each other over drugs, not even relucting to chop off a head which was placed at the pavement facing a meeting place from the "enemy". But the ones lost in petty crime are easy picks for recruiters for the "holy war" as they are feeble minded, not educated, not integrated and certainly not successfull in their lives. When someone tells them they're acting the wrong way, gives them an overload of information on how the west is guilty of their failure and of killing their kind of people in the Middle East and ultimately gives them a perspective of being someone important for the faith, you can understand the reason why there are so many of them from Belgium and Holland willing to offer their life. I believe it's just a matter of time: there will be a massacre in Holland too and we're not able to prevent this as this islamic culture is a world of it's own and not open to Dutch society. Do you think these lot will be different? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPx8iFovXvk I don't. The more they come, the bigger the problem will get. Imagine them or their kids in a classroom listening to a teacher who wants to tell about the holocaust. Do you believe they will feel sorry for the Jews? So far on the islam and antisemitism. What's your opinion on islam and the freedom of speech? I believe England had the dubious honour to be the first country which was confronted with the retarded conception of islam towards this fundamental right in Europe when Salman Rushdie wrote "the Satanic verses". In this clip (from the 14th minute) you can see the man from Bradford (nice place by the way ) who wrote a letter to ayatollah Khomeini in Iran and the reaction of the CEO from Penguin books in that era. With whom do you sympathise? http://www.npo.nl/speeches/03-01-2016/VPWON_1201081 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 4 April, 2016 Share Posted 4 April, 2016 I must be used to Twitter 140 characters. Break it down chaps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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