Are Saints New Owners Missing a Trick?

[Gurj]

I have been reading a lot of comments on various forums, that we need an experienced head or two in the team in defence and maybe upfront. I also agree with this. However, being the club strategy is to buy young promising players, development them and sell them on, the chances of us getting anyone experienced in their mid to late 20's seems slim. 

But, are the new owners missing a trick here. Imagine for one minute buying a really young defensive prospect and then putting him alongside a very experienced pro. Surely this would increase the chances of developing this player and thus escalating his growth and value increase. Instead of just leaving it to the training team and to some degree, chance.

 

 

[once_bitterne]

Computer says no...

[tunit]

No. Experience doesn't mean they're knowledgable on the pitch. Bella-Kotchap for example is only 20 but has 66 appearances in the Bundesliga. Thats more than someone like Pontus Jansson who is a very experienced defender has in the premier league. The only 'experience' we could afford is experience from a lesser team, e.g Mee from Burnley. Id rather not have the experience of a premier league centre back who has only known relegation battles. 

[Dorchester Saint]

We have experience in JWP, Oriel, Stu Armstrong, Che Adams, and KWP among others. I don’t want us to throw money at some 32 year old journeyman just because they’ve played for Burnley, Palace and Norwich in the premier league. We’ve done very well out of young talent in the past, it took a dive under Reed eventually, but I’m liking this approach where we’re targeting Chelsea & Man City’s young players, I’m looking forward to seeing how it pans out. 
 

Remember the words of Alan Hansen….

Edited 1 July, 2022 by Dorchester Saint

[S-Clarke]

I get the concerns, but I still don't think age alone should be a pointer of experience.

PEH, VVD were signed as young players but you wouldn't have ever said they were 'young' by the way they played. Not all young players will be like that, but I don't think it should be generalised that experience only comes when you're late 20's early 30's.

[tajjuk]

I feel you can't really buy that sort of influence in the dressing room, it seems a bit artificial, its more a gradual development of that sort of dynamic from players who are already here and have been for a long time who develop with the club and their teammates into those leadership/mentoring sort of roles. 

We are not going to be able to buy established world class stars who have won everything, that is never going to be on our radar. 

Basically who is better for our team, a young developing player who wants to improve himself and establish himself as a player, probably grateful for the opportunity the club has given him, who can grow with the team OR a 32 year old journeyman type player looking for his last payday? Because a lot of the names I have seen people mention IMO seem to fit more in that later category.  But also if you bring those sort of players in how does that impact players like JWP, Romeu, Armstrong etc. who are already seen as the experienced leaders in the dressing room, you are potentially causing conflict there. 

Whilst on a completely different level to us, isn't that essentially the issue PSG has, buying a team full of aging stars on huge wagepackets, none of whom really have a connection to the club, conflicting egos, whilst ignoring their youth products who are born close to the area, maybe grew up supporting the club and could grow and develop into players whilst at the club giving their all. It's quite absurd how many good players out there played for PSGs youth team's they have let go, whilst they are struggling to build a team dynamic and identity. 

Also as others have said it's not like we are buying players who are all 18 and have only played youth football, a few like Tino and potentially Lavia are like that, but Bella-Kotchap was playing regular first team football in the Bundesliga last year, Salisu was doing the same in La Liga facing off against Messi, Perraud had played multiple seasons in Ligue 1, even Bazanu has played several full seasons of lower league football and even has international experience against top teams like Serbia and Portugal.  Quite often these guys if they have not played full internationals have still played youth tournaments etc. for their country, been under that pressure to perform, played in front of big crowds etc. despite their age. 

Edited 1 July, 2022 by tajjuk

[woodsaint1]

1 hour ago, Gurj said:

I have been reading a lot of comments on various forums, that we need an experienced head or two in the team in defence and maybe upfront. I also agree with this. However, being the club strategy is to buy young promising players, development them and sell them on, the chances of us getting anyone experienced in their mid to late 20's seems slim. 

But, are the new owners missing a trick here. Imagine for one minute buying a really young defensive prospect and then putting him alongside a very experienced pro. Surely this would increase the chances of developing this player and thus escalating his growth and value increase. Instead of just leaving it to the training team and to some degree, chance.

 

 

You really dont want the owners determining transfers and recruitment strategy. History would tell you that its a bad combination. Clubs have other individuals who perform these roles

[Red]

56 minutes ago, tajjuk said:

I feel you can't really buy that sort of influence in the dressing room, it seems a bit artificial, its more a gradual development of that sort of dynamic from players who are already here and have been for a long time who develop with the club and their teammates into those leadership/mentoring sort of roles. 

We are not going to be able to buy established world class stars who have won everything, that is never going to be on our radar. 

Basically who is better for our team, a young developing player who wants to improve himself and establish himself as a player, probably grateful for the opportunity the club has given him, who can grow with the team OR a 32 year old journeyman type player looking for his last payday? Because a lot of the names I have seen people mention IMO seem to fit more in that later category.  But also if you bring those sort of players in how does that impact players like JWP, Romeu, Armstrong etc. who are already seen as the experienced leaders in the dressing room, you are potentially causing conflict there. 

Whilst on a completely different level to us, isn't that essentially the issue PSG has, buying a team full of aging stars on huge wagepackets, none of whom really have a connection to the club, conflicting egos, whilst ignoring their youth products who are born close to the area, maybe grew up supporting the club and could grow and develop into players whilst at the club giving their all. It's quite absurd how many good players out there played for PSGs youth team's they have let go, whilst they are struggling to build a team dynamic and identity. 

Also as others have said it's not like we are buying players who are all 18 and have only played youth football, a few like Tino and potentially Lavia are like that, but Bella-Kotchap was playing regular first team football in the Bundesliga last year, Salisu was doing the same in La Liga facing off against Messi, Perraud had played multiple seasons in Ligue 1, even Bazanu has played several full seasons of lower league football and even has international experience against top teams like Serbia and Portugal.  Quite often these guys if they have not played full internationals have still played youth tournaments etc. for their country, been under that pressure to perform, played in front of big crowds etc. despite their age. 

We need a modern day Jimmy Case (in addition to the youngsters) - he single handedly transformed us - for those old enough to remember. 

[Miltonaggro]

The last player brought in under these terms that tore it up was probably Jimmy Case.  Case was 31 when he joined Saints, McMenemy's last signing, and went on for five or six seasons making well over 200 appearances for Saints, the most he made for any club.  I watched a lot of those sides under Chris Nicholl and Case was instrumental in grounding, developing and protecting some very talented youngsters.  The epitome of a class act.  By the time he left Liverpool for Brighton at 28 as a makeweight in the Lawrenson deal, JC had won three European Cups, four league titles, and the UEFA and League cups.  Prior to this when Alan Ball joined Saints from Arsenal, he was also 31 and brought on a generation of quality midfield players, including his protégé Steve Williams, who credited Bally as his boyhood hero.  There is precdent, but as much as it's strategically desirable, what price for that type of pedigree and quality now?  Certainly beyond the reach Saints budget at the present time.  It may well be the case that there are still Eriksen type deals to be done, just the type of deals Saints should be all over, but if we are looking to bring in the most talented youngsters their prospective mentors should still be able to do the things that they technically or professionally aspire to.  Perhaps this will be the approach of the new Board.  

[Bakovnetski]

4 minutes ago, Red said:

We need a modern day Jimmy Case (in addition to the youngsters) - he single handedly transformed us - for those old enough to remember. 

Romeu?

[Red]

4 minutes ago, Bakovnetski said:

Romeu?

Maybe. I really like Rom and on his day he is awesome, however Casey lifted the whole team and protected the younger players. He was my  best L McM signing and had a massive influence on us (appreciate the Bally remarks and others such as Nichol as a player etc.). He was the midfield maestro that pulled all the strings.

[Piran]

6 minutes ago, Red said:

Maybe. I really like Rom and on his day he is awesome, however Casey lifted the whole team and protected the younger players. He was my  best L McM signing and had a massive influence on us (appreciate the Bally remarks and others such as Nichol as a player etc.). He was the midfield maestro that pulled all the strings.

Totally agree. I watched the whole McMenemy reign closely, and would perhaps put Bally above Case, even, but won't quibble. And there were so many other great players that Lawrie Mac got a tune out of, despite their advancing years. However, I do think that times have changed, and with the rise in earning power of the players and agents now, it may not be quite so simple to replicate those methods.

On Romeo, I'm a fan, but in my opinion he really dipped in form towards the end of last season, and Saints performances really reflected that fact, showing just what an influence he is on the team.

[Badger]

25 minutes ago, Bakovnetski said:

Romeu?

 

14 minutes ago, Red said:

Maybe. I really like Rom and on his day he is awesome, however Casey lifted the whole team and protected the younger players. He was my  best L McM signing and had a massive influence on us (appreciate the Bally remarks and others such as Nichol as a player etc.). He was the midfield maestro that pulled all the strings.

Don't think anyone comes close to Case or Ball among the current squad as good as Romeu and JWP are on their day. Go back to Miltonaggro's post to see what Case had achieved and won, Ball a league title and a World Cup Winner before joining us. Both commanded respect from the rest of the team and brought their experiences with them.

[berkshiresaint]

1 hour ago, Miltonaggro said:

The last player brought in under these terms that tore it up was probably Jimmy Case.  Case was 31 when he joined Saints, McMenemy's last signing, and went on for five or six seasons making well over 200 appearances for Saints, the most he made for any club.  I watched a lot of those sides under Chris Nicholl and Case was instrumental in grounding, developing and protecting some very talented youngsters.  The epitome of a class act.  By the time he left Liverpool for Brighton at 28 as a makeweight in the Lawrenson deal, JC had won three European Cups, four league titles, and the UEFA and League cups.  Prior to this when Alan Ball joined Saints from Arsenal, he was also 31 and brought on a generation of quality midfield players, including his protégé Steve Williams, who credited Bally as his boyhood hero.  There is precdent, but as much as it's strategically desirable, what price for that type of pedigree and quality now?  Certainly beyond the reach Saints budget at the present time.  It may well be the case that there are still Eriksen type deals to be done, just the type of deals Saints should be all over, but if we are looking to bring in the most talented youngsters their prospective mentors should still be able to do the things that they technically or professionally aspire to.  Perhaps this will be the approach of the new Board.  

Still my favourite ever saints player. He was an absolute beast. I am getting old but i still have a vague memory of him kicking lumps out of people during a testimonial match against Glasgow Rangers.

[Golac's Cunning Stunts]

12 minutes ago, berkshiresaint said:

Still my favourite ever saints player. He was an absolute beast. I am getting old but i still have a vague memory of him kicking lumps out of people during a testimonial match against Glasgow Rangers.

I remember that game!

Case was brilliant, for me Bally was an absolute revelation when he came in the side. He transformed the way we played - all one touch, quick thinking football. Was special.

Lawrie was a master at blending exciting young players with experienced players who had the mentality, skills and experience required to be successful in the top game. The young players we brought through flourished because of it.

Edited 1 July, 2022 by Golac's Cunning Stunts

[Nolan]

Rasmus Andersen has "The secure way is the insecure way" as his Twitter bio.

They purposefully do not take the well trodden path.

[Badger]

 

2 hours ago, Golac's Cunning Stunts said:

I remember that game!

Case was brilliant, for me Bally was an absolute revelation when he came in the side. He transformed the way we played - all one touch, quick thinking football. Was special.

Lawrie was a master at blending exciting young players with experienced players who had the mentality, skills and experience required to be successful in the top game. The young players we brought through flourished because of it.

Agree with you about Alan Ball, I remember an interview with Keegan who said the he could still learn things from Ball in training despite twice being European Footballer of the year.

The part in bold in your last paragraph is the stand out point for me. Buy someone like Salisu for £12m and put him alongside a good CB partner who can help him and organise the defence and you're on the way to reaching the target of turning him into a £40+m player, let him struggle alongside some of the shit we've seen in recent years and he becomes a quivering wreck you can't give away.

[Badger]

6 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

I get the concerns, but I still don't think age alone should be a pointer of experience.

PEH, VVD were signed as young players but you wouldn't have ever said they were 'young' by the way they played. Not all young players will be like that, but I don't think it should be generalised that experience only comes when you're late 20's early 30's.

Generally, 'experience' would be closely related to age, and seasons played.

You make a valid point though that age isn't the sole issue, and that a younger player can show leadership s on the pitch, certainly VVD did whilst with us when Fonte wasn't there to muster the defence.

 Bobby Moore and Will Carling captained their respective England teams in their early 20's, and were widely regarded as good organisers. Ray Wilkins captained Chelsea at 18, but they are clearly the exceptions.