buctootim

Kin ell its really not difficult. Norway, Switzerland and Iceland have to accept free movement of labour as part of their agreements with the EU. Britain would have to do the same, thereby removing the main argument for leaving. You can pretend that Britain wouldnt be treated like these other European countries but instead would be treated as if we were on a different continent, but that just makes you look silly. http://openeurope.org.uk/blog/swiss-told-to-vote-again-on-free-movement-except-this-time-the-stakes-are-higher/

In the part about Norway and Switzerland I referred to the fact they have no control over EU migration. They dont. They have to abide by the EU agreements and legislation without having a vote. You then went on to pretend I'd said UK trade negotiations with the US would also have to include immigration, which is clearly nonsense and I didnt say it.

Wes I imagine you as the person who goes around offering £200,000 for £400,000 houses convinced that one of your offers will be accepted, its just a question of perserverance. We will have no whip hand with the EU because they arent going to **** off 27 members to please one non member. If the EU felt inclined to make concessions to Britain they would do that at the stage of in / out negotiations in an attempt to stop a major member leaving and all the implications that would have. The idea that they would instead decide to make special concessions after the UK has left is risible.

...

My post is based on real existing arrangements with real existing countries who wanted the same deal you are talking about and didn't get it. Your post is based on hope. The EU isnt going to offer non members a better deal than members get. Offering a pick and mix 'take what you want leave what you dont' deal would trigger a rush for the exit by exisiitng members and bring down the EU. Why would you be a member of the EU if you can get all the benefits and none of the disadvantages? Aint going to happen. Talking about the trade deals China and Australia have with the EU is a red herring, they arent in Europe. China is subject to large tariffs for many goods. I didnt make any comment about tying immigration to trade outside EU, I think you misunderstood. The US is different. Sure we can have a bilateral trade deal with them. It will be a totally unequal negotiation though, they'd have us by the short and curlies. 1. We export more to them than we import, so we need a deal more than they do 2. What we import from them is mostly essential goods we couldnt buy elsewhere - specialist aircraft parts, drugs, arms. 3. What we sell to them, mostly cars, competes directly with their own industry 4. The US want us in the EU, they have said that many times. They arent going to help us leave with a sweetheart deal.

Just watched a few minutes of it. Very moving, thanks for posting this up. I'll watch the rest later.

excellent

Along with Wanyama

We'd end up with the same deal as Norway and Switzerland. ie having to comply with EU legislation, still have open doors to EU citizens so no control over immigration but without a vote or influence. We would also be outside the EU / US Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership which will govern trade with America - vulnerable to tariffs as we sell more to them than they sell to us. Oh and before you post up the "ahh but the EU export more to us than they import from UK so they need us and we'll get a better deal" hoary old argument, the same is true of Switzerland, except more so. They got zilch.

Comes 7th every race

Who knows. The Taliban certainly asked for proof of his death. Either way in general I think its better to bring the Pol Pots, Milosovics, Ceausescus, Bin Ladens of this world to trial. Their subordinates, not so much. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/skeptics-wonder-wheres-proof-bin-ladens-dead/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-33152315 http://edition.cnn.com/2015/05/11/opinions/bergen-bin-laden-story-a-lie/

Dunce

You seem under par, tetchy, lacking rigour. Pity, you're capable of better. So you agree it would have been better to bring him to court rather than enabling conspiracists to claim Bin Laden won and is still alive. You agree its preferable to have public due process instead of shadowy assassinations. What you're upset about is the adjective Corbyn used to describe that missed opportunity. I'm glad we're focussed on the big issues.

Cameron, his ministers and the MEPs.

Did the lynching of Gadaffi advance the case for intervention and justice in Libya or would a trial seen to be fair and hearing the evidence of his crimes been better? Should Saddam Hussein have been shot in his foxhole or did the parading of the slightly pathetic figure in court increase the authority of the Iraqi government? How about Nuremburg? good thing or bad? Pity Hitler got the easy way out, or not?

tbf I enjoyed Lg1 and the Championship more than the PL, when we were winning and going up the leagues that is. The first year of Pardew, losing away in lg1 sat in the rain with my feet in a deep puddle, not so much.

Then we'd better get out of the United Nations, World Trade Organisation, UEFA, OECD, World Bank, IMF, International Olympic Commission, NATO etc - they're all run on the same club principles.

How is it undemocratic?

I'll vote to stay in, the benefits are huge. I accept overall levels of immigration are too high but nearly two thirds of people arriving are from outside the EU or expats returning home so to demonise the EU makes no sense. The people who claim the EU is not democratic usually have no clue how it works. Legislation is only proposed by the commission. Decisions are taken by the European Parliament which consists of MEPs who are voted for. Those decisions then have to be ratified by the Council of Ministers which is attended either by the PM or one of his ministers (for lesser issues). On the most important issues the PM has a veto. The EU has 47,000 employees spread across 28 countries, an average of 1,670 per country. The UK Government employs 5.4 million , Southampton City Council employs just under 5,000. Southampton University hospitals employs 9,000. Do 10,000 staff earn more than David Cameron? err no, not unless you contort the figures to make it look like he does. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10847979/10000-European-Union-officials-better-paid-than-David-Cameron.html By contrast 9,000 UK public sector employees really do earm more than him. Does the EU cost a fortune? Not unless you think 0.5% of GDP is a fortune.

The author Jay Syrmopoulos is a contributor to infowars one of crackiest of crackpot sites. The piece is a mishmash of inaccuracies and quotes from sites with an obvious line to peddle eg the part about how the Russians are being unfairly targeted comes from Russia Today.

That comment is exactly why he should have put on trial and dealt with instead of killed. To a lot of people he is hero who escaped capture by the Americans and is hiding out somewhere.

Hopefully. The other viewpoint is that we become like Chelsea. Lots of development players on the books who never play fro the first team

Corbyn meant, as he has said, it was a tragedy for the world to not see him put on trial. I understand that argument. Its more powerful and sends a stronger message to imitators to bring to justice the killer of thousands of people than to kill him in secret and bury his body unseen. You may disagree, but that doesn't make you right.

Cull

When we've had the that will be the sum of his argument on any issue.