Gordon Mockles

The 2007/08 football season was a major disappointment with the Club finishing 20th in the Coca Cola Championship, only surviving relegation on the final day of the season. “Having been so close to promotion in the 2006/07 season, and losing in a penalty shoot out in the play off semi-final, the Board backed its football manager George Burley, to strengthen the squad with transfer fees and increased player wages to make a further challenge for promotion to the lucrative Premier League” What utter spin! So funny. Lowe's board - They're characters eh?! They've more front than Harrods! So, in one breath, Jones is praising an element of the board (which we must assume is Wilde and co), in essence, as we got “so close to promotion in the 2006/07 season, and losing in a penalty shoot out in the play off semi-final, the Board backed its football manager George Burley…” but failing to acknowledge that the method of that very “backing” was the massive over-spend (in money we didn’t have) by Mike Wilde himself. Then Jones goes on to state that “The cost of this player expenditure, together with the loss of the parachute payment from the Premier League, has had a materially adverse impact on the financial results, which show a 36% reduction in revenue from £23.3m to £14.9m and an increase in the loss before taxation from £0.9m to £4.9m, despite a £12.7m profit on disposal of players' registrations” (This must now be attributed to Crouch as this is the negatively critical part) Unbelievable! Let's have our cake, and eat it! And who oversaw a large part of that? Errrrr, Well…according to Wilde, Jones and Lowe, the chief culprit/scapegoat is Leon Crouch (unless it's positive in which case it must be Wilde and the good things he inherited from Lowe) Yes, Leon inherits ALL THE BLAME for the failings of Lowe and, more conclusively, Wilde in a few short months (Leon's tenure). That is, despite most of this financial overspend and damage being instigated by Wilde and his failed appointments (Hone and co - who took the club siege and dished out ludicrous contracts to players while Wilde stepped down, leaving Leon to sort out the mess of a club he left in utter turmoil). Rich words Jones! Rich indeed - laughable really (but hypocrisy is the mantra of the current axis in charge). You can’t write comedy like that. Maybe we should blame the fans too... All very convenient, this critical news all piggy backs on the back of a very positive win for Saints! Great timing. Purely coincidence of course!

Possibly so he could maintain his fitness in the run up to January and play first team football. Maybe he was press ganged into it. Lowe's not the most easy going charimen in the world! Still, if it saves the club money, good. It's good to have some experience on the field, all be it for (possibly) a short time. I haven't heard anything about combined ownership though. Just what I'd been told. Believe it or not, up to you. Whether the figure was 50%, who knows but it's odd he's suddenly playing again - could it be because of a previous appearance fee now being taken out of his contract?! Why do you think he's not played all season, then suddenly plays again on the lead up to January. Time may shed more light but I'm only repeating what I'd heard. As mentioned, he may have been press ganged into the situation and forced to accept a contract or NOT play (as may have been happening). He could accept the new terms, then play for a time, before moving on to a new club for more money (he does strike me as the type that is more focused on the money than the football...imho)

Is this a loaded statement or baiting as it constitutes the most ridiculous statement ever on this forum! LMFAO :smt076

He's had something like a 50% pay cut and a new contract for a shorter term (hence why he's playing now) but he's as good as gone in Jan. I'm guessing, cos he can better the wage he's getting now (not tricky!) and is just playing to get fit and put himself in the shop window, if any deal falls through that isn't signed already. I guess he's doing it now under agent advice or desperation, as he won't get any club if unfit and not playing, or not wanting to play. Doesn't set a good precedence!

Back to square (n)one!

Are you sure? GOOD GOD! Must be paper talk - a FULL BACK, more particularly...a LEFT BACK!! OMFG Won't comment on the age as par for the course now. You think they'd try add some experience, seeing as the balance is wrong, but it is paper talk. Who knows?! That's a good a method of checking than any! LOL In fact, I may do that in future. Doing one campaign with Saints and one with Man City as it's boring with no transfer budget! hehe

Good point. I'd just like us to win 2 in a row for a change! (Hadn't panned down the thread and see I have exactly the same comment above. OOPS! Hardly worth saying now. Wasted post. Sorry.)

As I've said all season, an experienced professional who gives his all and is, imho, our best defender (Certainly most experienced, bar Svensson who is a unique case with his injury/pay as you play issues). Perry should always start ahead of the inexperienced youngsters, as results have proven.

Wes has got it spot on, don’t believe the hype! We’ve endured many a “rallying call” and should expect a certain degree of the obligatory football club spin but, is it me or do Saints do more than their fair share?! Maybe, because we have so little success and results to actually praise, we try and dupe the fans with poorly thought out, intelligence insulting propaganda (Let’s not mention the Echo…OOPS! Too late) However, this is rich. Ex youth player (in the media spot light) who was sold too early, gets a phone call to big up his old club, and their new style of play. FFS – just don’t bother. As stated, it wasn’t good enough to keep him at Saints for an extra season (ok, you can’t blame him) when he hit form and got media attention but using him as an ambassador to big up a failing regime makes me chuckle with irony.

I think we're all bored of reading them to be fair (re: anti-Lowe threads - they've been done to death). It’s almost unanimous, Lowe is disliked and has led us to the gates of oblivion but some objectivity seems to have now superseded the puerile animosity. It’s good to read. Furthermore, I glanced through some of the more interesting threads this week (not so many on TSW after the mass exodus) and some people actually posted some astute, well reasoned & thoughtful (all be it lengthy - I can’t criticise in that respect! LOL), ripostes. Even Sundance passed a few reasonable, carefully considered comments (rather than persisting with his usual scornful, provocative tactics). Yes, “Reasonable" and "Sundance" in the same sentence. Who’d have thought?! Without meaning to sound antagonistic, maybe the mantra has changed due to the harsh realisation that Lowe’s tenure, or our very club’s future, is at risk and the current strategy (both on the pitch & on the forum) is failing drastically. It must make you think, don’t antagonise, post some well reasoned comments and look at how well you can be received. Who knows if it will be the lull before the storm, but we certainly need change. Let’s just hope we can have a change in management/ownership and/or tactics before it’s too late. That much must be realised. Even Matt Le Tiss feels obliged to comment on team affairs, which is unusual and adds another key name to the plethora of fans worried about our overtly risky reliance on kids. What makes a man is realising you’ve got it wrong, holding your hands up and admitting your mistakes, and caring/doing enough to rectify the failure.

Maybe he was but not in any of the games I’ve seen. I can only comment on what I’ve seen. He may improve in the future but we’re at the foot of the CCC table and do not have time to blood inexperienced players like Gobern, Lancashire, James, esq. (who are not currently up to scratch imho - not their fault, they’ve been heavily laden and thrown in the deep end). Particularly in defence anyway, an area that needs a player with a level head, a man who can read the game and where positioning is critical. There are plenty of players who, over the years, have been very good in midfield. Alan Ball, Eyal Berkovic, Ariel Ortega instantly spring to mind...tons more! However, despite some smaller players excelling at jumping to win headers with their timing (e.g. Baird in defence), I don’t think Gillet fits into that category. Also, he doesn’t have another partner in midfield with aerial prowess in which to play off. I feel that’s a hindrance in the context of a player who isn’t particularly powerful (More prone to being out-muscled) competing with strong, towering championship players who dominate in the air. Just my opinion. Maybe you’re right. I don’t query his work ethic, as he started the season well but lost form...imho.

That's a good post. I reckon those points resonate through the heads of many Saints fans. As Wes says, I also don't always agree with certain points you make but you always put across a well structured argument. In this case, we're in agreement. I firmly believe our squad hasn't enough depth and experience to survive this season. We need change NOW. Considering how Jan seems to blindly truck on regardless (nothing against the guy but he must realise he's flogging a dead house with the current tactics and influence), we don't have time to persist with this ideology. Persisting with a single striker (especially Mc Goldrick) is NOT working (seems crazy when we've 3 more established & experienced strikers loaned to other clubs. In some cases, rivals). We do seem easy to defend against. Also, I am in firm agreement with Wes and others who express their concerns about our passing. It's not penetrating and often switches from side to side (very little going forward, attacking the box) and there is a distinct lack of personnel for getting on the end of crosses and attacking balls (i.e. When Holmes drilled in crosses, there was no-one in the box 80% of the time - to attack the ball). Mc Goldrick often out of position, no back up from the congested midfield and even Lallana lacks power in his shooting, especially from range. The best game I have seen this season was the home game against Norwich. Even then, we still looked frail against any penetrating passes and runs. A pacey winger exposed us on more than a few occasions. We played well attacking and won against a poor Norwich side. Better opposition, as has been proved already this season (too many times), punish us with high balls, overlapping surges down the flanks and set pieces and route one football. Our back line cannot cope. I'm bored of saying but starting a season with no recognised full backs, combined with Lowe's pig headed attitude not to play/pay most senior pros, has helped create this mess. We are only seeing Skacel play now because of desperation (and that's on a forced 50% pay cut with reduced contract duration, plus he'll be gone in January along with most of the other senior strikers). What will happen post January? I shudder to think. We need change now. If this reviled and arrogant approach by Lowe continues (and make no mistake, Lowe is pulling all the strings), I can only assume relegation serves as some form of retribution or, more controversially, some master plan to pick up assets from the club on the cheap! You never can tell with the Saints boards. The club has always taken a back seat & suffered at the prosperity of the executives & major share holders. It's a sad sign of the times as you don't see any of those supposed "Saints supporting directors" (past and present, particularly Lowe’s ‘proxy’ who purport to be fans of SFC) dipping into their pockets in Saints desperate hour of need. That in itself speaks volumes. They've bled us dry, they smile and watch us die. They’ve ripped the heart and soul from our club and Saints are no longer of importance to the likes of Askham, Wiseman, Lowe, Wilde, esq. Well, only to salvage their shares. That'll be the only decent thing to come from administration. Those b*stards losing their shares. I feel sorry for the genuine fans who will suffer but not for those money-hungry parasites! As some have already suggested, neat passing from side to side and a good attitude are not enough to keep us in this division. We need goals, strength, power and experience (from top to bottom) and a change in tactics as this flogged horse needs putting down! Lowe got through so many managers in the past, Sturrock didn't even get a chance. Why is Jan remaining in charge when results are pitiful and even our Championship status is in severe jeopardy?! Surely Rupert's arrogance doesn't distort the realisation that his own failed appointments (in Poortvliet and Wotte) will get us relegated if he persists with this madness!?

I'm not sure but, in principal, it seems a good idea. He's too small for midfield but could plug a gap. He certainly works hard. Lancashire should not start. Perry may be carrying an injury they're being coy about but i would certainly play him. What is wrong with Thomas? Bizarre how we pay out high wages for players we don't play. Doesn't seem cost effective, regardless of appearance fees.

Utter tripe! Are you oblivious to the simple facts? I do agree in part, many on here (me included to be fair) dislike Lowe so much (for many reasons) that we may be mildly blinded by scorn BUT I always try to remain realistic and keep a sense of perspective. However, Considering Lowe is the instigator of removing Pearson and appointing the new, untested/inexperienced/highly risky Dutch regime, The total reliance on youth (poor use of loans - injured & inexperienced players), loaning out the leading goal scorers, corners closed, lack of media contact, poor relations with the customer base, etc. etc. then he is wide open to criticism and results speak for themselves. It’s been said over and over again so I won’t elaborate. However, results and the culmination of factors represent nearer 10,000 staying away imho (if you consider season ticket holders that aren’t in attendance – I know well over a dozen currently staying away, off the top of my head). Regardless of semantics, the figure is in the thousands and a largely significant portion of that exodus is down to the return of Rupert Lowe and his wildly controversial decisions (which he must have known would divide the fan-base). That, twinned with the pitiful results, are directly attributable to Lowe (and Wilde, seeing as he wanted the football director title!). Certainly not a figure of hundreds staying away, that's a crazy figure. They supposedly lead *cough* our club so they take full responsibility for results (despite minimal contact with the fans as they don’t seem to respect the “customer” very highly). Slightly arrogant. Whilst I agree, the 11 players on the pitch merit (and need) support; in your mind, supporters are not supporters if they are against a chairmanship that they feel is destroying the club, and vocally vent their disapproval against it. Football is a passionate game. Ideally, I’d save the protests until after the game but, seeing as we were losing and tensions were high, I understand their frustration. It was pretty loud in the Itchen, from what I heard. Good on them! Many are showing their disapproval by not even attending. Which is worse in your book? I sympathise with both trends, in retrospect. Saints supporters have had a raw deal for more than long enough. However, don’t confuse supporter’s frustration (after all, we are Southampton and it is football) with lack of support. After all, they are at the game supporting the club and they aren’t happy to sit on the fence and watch our demise in shoulder shrugging nonchalance. Some set their standards higher than relegation form Coca-Cola Championship! It just depends in which shade of grey you like to see things.

Ahhh!!! Somedunce Sheep is back! *rejoices* Meow! Have we got issues eh?! LOL For someone who tries so hard to exude wit, you’d think you’d consider your posts a little more before pressing the notorious [sUBMIT] button. It’s good to have you back though. It must give people pleasure reading your humourous posts. Funniest part being, you describe the current disaster (instigated by Messrs Lowe and Wilde) as “a path of prudence”. ROFLMAO Best comment to date! Throw in some of your class prejudice too and we’ll have a Sundance back in true style – trying to provoke responses, making people laugh and talking complete tripe! Bless! The comment about “Duncan Holley is as forward thinking as one of his books” also had a delicious irony…seeing as the mere name “historian” suggests otherwise. A forward thinking history book just doesn’t sound right - but let’s not let common sense cloud your views. I suppose Friday is pub day so we’ll forgive you. It must have been hard storing up all your usual outlandish, wildly entertaining nonsense during your forum sabbatical. I’m sure you have saved up some choice words and obscure quotes to help us all through the day. Maybe Lowe thinks he’s Churchill. That old quote springs to mind - “Success is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm.” Still, not much has changed with you, gladly. Like Lowe (not sure why), you end your bizarre posts with the usual rhetoric, chastising those of a differing opinion/stance to the die hard/core supporters (i.e. the Stay aways) or the disasterous regime your purport to support. That is very much the attitude of Rupert – arrogant. Dishing out blame, never taking responsibility for fool hardy and ludicrous actions (not all I may add, just most!),never apologising and answering to no-one. What an ambassador! I think you need to find a new fallen idol to worship. I hear Gary Glitter is feeling lonely and persecuted Sundance!

Bizarre view-point! Speaking on a local Radio is hardly divisive! Least Duncan speaks his mind, as opposed to the club peddling out Poortvliet and Svensson to talk inanely about Saints and not answer anything of worth (or Stuart Dennis’s worthless approach to the questioning). In case you’d missed it, Lowe is divisive. Look at the group of businessmen he represents (should they be showered with praise for their business practices and share acquisition?!) and how he came back to power….with 6% (approx.) of blo*dy shares FFS. Only at St Mary’s…. Indeed, the last plan didn’t go too well (Le Manifesto Wilde!!) YET we still have the same 2 figures in situ – the 2 men most responsible for this massive failure and our almost total demise…in control…AGAIN! You couldn’t write such a horror story. And look how well they’ve done this season?! FFS – Why do people support or defend 2 such obvious and incompetent, self-driven f*ck ups that have destroyed our club?! Jump off that high horse and drink your milk!

Dead right. Perry's been the better defender (only defender in some cases) and made some crucial interceptions (last ditch) on many occasions and he should certainly start ahead of the inexperienced young uns like Lancashire. No contest! We've proved that defence is one area where you can't get away with too much inexperience!

:smt046 I'd not be too fussed about the window dressing, it's what inside that counts! In this case, a web spun by a better web-maker (no pun intended) than Charlotte's web!

You're not wrong and it's very much the style of the current regime. If the cap fits...LOL

I have always stated that I won’t properly judge Poortvliet and Wotte (and Hockaday too for that matter as he is as heavily involved as anyone else yet not mentioned so much) until Christmas time. It’s fast approaching. Dec/January is a good barometer and time to set judgement imho. As many pundits have highlighted “If a team is rock bottom at Xmas, adrift with a poor points deficit, it is very unlikely they will climb out of the whole and survive the season”. Thankfully, Saints aren’t in that position but I will be extremely worried about the remaining season if we are in the bottom 3 and still failing to learn from our plethora of mistakes. Luckilly, Poorvliet seems to have begun praising (and playing) the experienced senior pros he was forced to leave out (injuries aside – Skacel & Euell) early season. This is a positive step but I question his actual influence over squad selection, as has been the subject or much debate and controversy. We may never know but I hope he is not over-ruled and we continue to include much needed experience, to at least support and steady the young nerves of kids playing against experienced men. We’ve seen some hope (The Preston come back away from home) but we have continuously failed (game after game) to build on the few victories we have won. They are isolated. We just need some back to back wins and confidence, I am sure, would sore. I am bemused why we can’t cancel loans (ok, agent cost possibly or part of a deal in Jan?!) and bring in some grit and experience (I reserve judgement on Pearce as I’ve heard good things, despite his age) Anyhow, waffling. Apologies. By Xmas, if results haven’t improved (and he keeps persisting with Mc Goldrick and not playing anyone else up front) I would seek a change in management. Sadly, I think it would only be on house (Wotte or, more likely, Hockaday)

That doesn’t even figure in the current climate. The rise and fall in attendances last season is not the issue. We are talking the dramatic downturn in attendance this season (from 22,000 [approx.] to figures around 10-12, 000 [approx.] – and those figures aren’t totally accurate as they include season ticket holders, in attendance or not. I am aware of a great number of season ticket holders this season staying away purely down to Lowe and Wilde and their decisions this season. No speculation, solid fact.) The catalyst for this downturn, as mentioned, being the return of Lowe (and Wilde) and the board’s utter disregard to the fan-base and media black out, countered by the non-attendance of the fans in response to the poor performances, ludicrous decisions and awful results. I think you’ll find money doesn’t come into it. After all, the mere acquisition of the Dutch Duo must have made an impact in attendances from the onset (i.e. people were annoyed Lowe was back, even more so he appointed his pre-determined regime, dismissing Pearson without so much as a sniff) which would have affected finances. I believe Lowe thought Pearson didn’t fit into his ‘business model’ (which was to have a manager who would work entirely with youth, may succumb to pressure or influence from outside factors [the Lowe faction], have players selected for him and work with what he was given and, generally, have very little control in matters. Essentially – Employ a “Yes Man”). Pearson was certainly his own person and I don’t believe he would have taken kindly to manipulation or excessive meddling from inexperienced executives. Using money and finances as a constant excuse to support the Dutch guys is weak and an easy get out clause. Whichever manager came in, he would have had to lose experienced players and cut costs. It just didn’t have to be in the dramatic style which Lowe/Wilde implemented (total youth with no steadying balance of experience and stupid loans). I think results have proved that risk to be a foolish one (which many of us contested from pre-season) You don’t know how Pearson would have worked. He certainly seemed to have drawn up a plan for the season but this was overlooked and Lowe refused to accept keeping Pearson on, for whatever reasons he felt at the time. Very little was said at the time and, judging by their track record, what the “paying public” would have been told would probably have been heavily spun, especially if the Echo reported on it. I’d hardly think “dream situations” would be an appropriate moniker for drawing up a semi-competent plan for the season, compared to the abortion of a model Lowe swung heavily into action. Historically, this was destined to fail (risking so much, so whole heartedly. I can’t help but think this ‘massive gamble’ was made because it was dramatic and arrogant – if it succeeded, Lowe could bask in the glory and smugly refute previous concerns by fans. If it fails (as is happening), he can sit in the shadows, hide from the media, controlling his puppets until all falls apart and he moves on to his next venture. Skacel was thrown in due to desperation, rather than choice. If they’d brought in adequate cover early on, we’d maybe have not started so badly. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but, as you say, anything else is guess work and opinion. I just know I’d not have taken the silly risks Lowe has but what do I know. I’m just a fan.

Thanks! Not the best thread...but least your contributions spiced it up! *cough*

Despite Pearson formely being formerly assistant coach to Stuart Pearce for the England under 21s?! How can you assume what Pearson would have done without the benefit of a pre-season to judge? I doubt he'd have brought in a squad of soley kids, leaving out all the more experiencing players until they were forced to sign vastly reduced contracts (both in wages and duration of contract). I am also sure he would certainly have used the loan system more wisely than Jan (and brought in the steadying heads of experience, rather than injured kids of questionable quality). If Pearson hadn't brought in Lucketti, Perry and Wright, I wonder where we'd be now?! Certainly better off than playing a defence full of inexperienced kids, having sold your best defender for a pittance and refused to bring in full backs at the necessary time.

Title says it all. Is The Echo in the pocket of the club? Articles offer little to no objectivity & persist in peddling out the same inane nonsense. What's happening with the editorial? Do the local hacks have no sense of integrity and can they not offer a balanced, independent view?! Some have even suggested the club would remove privileges to The Echo if unfavourable articles were I about the club. WTF? Have the board got that petty in their control of propoganda?

I'll take that as a "down the pub all afternoon" then! LOL