egg

Heart says score draw, head says there'll score and we won't. I've not captained Werner in my fantasy league team as I never back anyone against us, but I think he'll have a field day coming off the left.

Bingo. There wasn't one. You're comparing apples with potatoes. If Sunderland had done it twice then your Sunderland point would have some relevance. We did it twice, and piss poor on field leadership was a factor as to why.

Did he play when they lost 8 nil again a few months later?

Yes, my point entirely. A captain isn't just there to deal with the coin toss, but in reality that's all JWP brings to the role. In fairness to Stephens, he at least can be heard talking to the defence, ditto Forster when he plays. The importance of a respected talker on the pitch can't be underestimated - you take Coady out of the team at Wolves and replace him with an equally able CB, you end up with a weaker defence because of what he brings as a leader and talker. If you replace JWP and replace with an equivalent player but who leads and motivates, imo you have a stronger team. I say this as someone who's played and captained at a reasonable level, and from what I see (and now hear on the TV in empty stadiums) as a fan.

I have not said that a captain needs to shout to demonstrate leadership. They need to lead, encourage, motivate, put arms around sunken shoulders, etc. None of our players do that, and certainly not our captain. This is not a Noble vs JWP best player discussion. JWP is better all day long. It's a leader on the pitch discussion, but highlighting the obvious that Noble is the better player and skimming over the fact that we have no on field leadership adds nothing to the discussion. If you genuinely think that our lack of on field leadership is not an issue then let's agree to differ.

You're missing the point. We wouldn't have lost 9 nil, twice, with someone like him in our midfield. Nobody gave proper leadership to the players in those games. That's the point.

That makes perfect sense. I'd imagine that we'll still get some white blokes telling us he's wrong though.

I'm with Duck on this, and I hope that the players aren't getting the "there there, it's not your fault" message. It was. They capitulated, pure and simple. Sure, we got rough decisions in the Utd game but none of the circumstances excuse such a poor performance and result. If we had natural leaders out there that wouldn't have happened. Its not all shouting and balling, but players able to raise the spirits and encourage. We have none that - just lads programmed to do a job. If had a Tony Adams type rather than Stephens, a Noble rather than JWP, neither 9 nil would have happened imo.

Rack

Talk of Djenepo at right wing back is crazy. He'll get mullered by Alonso/Chilwell and Werner. Our only available players who can stand at right back are Stephens or Ramsey. Neither are good enough, but both are preferable to Djenepo, and it allows us to retain our system.

Treat

Moon

"thoroughly depressed". Blimey, have some perspective. We're the footy equivalent of an average looking bloke who had a bit of fun with a woman way out of his league before ending up with someone at his level. Take the positives, we had a bit of fun.

Yep. He's the nearest thing to a fit right back that we have. We can't move JWP as we have no midfield options other than Chauke or Jankewitz(if available) or maybe shifting Armstrong inside. It's a question of the least worst of several crap options, but going 3 at the back with a winger at RWB against Alonso or Chilwell, plus one of Pulisic/Werner/Ziyech would be mental.

That lad Reed at Fulham looks good. Ran the game against Everton yesterday. Nice little piece on his performance on MOTD last night. Generally though, I agree with you. We are meek, there's no obvious leader out there, and the heads go down too quickly. I can't believe that there isn't one player with leadership qualities, and as much as I like JWP as a player, he's not captain material.

Possibly but my guess is Bednarek with Salisu and Vestergaard at CB.

Why? Because Liverpool are much better than us, and we're not much better than Fulham.

That's because talk of us catching Liverpool would be ridiculous. I'd wager with you that Fulham will much finish closer to us than we do to Liverpool. We aren't going down though.

Love

Bingo. Shit decisions, but if we're not shit, that result doesn't happen.

KWP injury did not have to mean disrupting our CB's. Ralph played two men down the right for a big chunk of the second half. He did nothing else to influence the game when we went down, or indeed for the entire second half. Djenepo didn't feel like the right change when he made it, and so it proved. Those decisions, and others are all on Ralph. Too easy to blame our luck.

Spot on. It's easy to look past our faults and focus on the decisions. Sure, we got tucked up, but we were shit and got what we deserved.

Near post, far post, middle of the goal, what's the point?! He was beaten with a good finish and arguably should have done better. Details don't matter.

The decisions are weird, but now we've had a pop at Dean we're not likely to get the decisions. Regardless, you've got to control what you can control. Ralph hasn't got a plan to chase games. If he has I can't see it, and it isn't working.

That was poor from Ralph. Tactically we were completely undone. Second half we did nothing to chase the game, no plan B. Bizarrely we had Djenepo and Redmond both down the right. We can moan all we want about VAR and decisions, but they're just excuses. We've got big problems.