Forget your prejudice, FFS!

[Belgiansaint]

I have read on numerous occasions on this forum that "we need a British manager", "we need a real, typical English CB / striker / winger" or that "English football is now in the hands of foreigners". I know full well this has much to do with the way football is played in England, especially in the lower divisions.

 

But what sense does it really make? Was ever being British a guarantee for success, let alone quality? One will easily and rightly point at the recent Dutch experiment at Saints but the club's demise started well before that when the dressing-room staff was mostly British (Wigley, Grey, Sturrock Burley), didn't it? And among our favourite players we very often name Egil, Golac, Van Gobbel and many others. English football never had it so good since there were foreign investors / managers / players involved. And it was George Prost who presided over the development of the academy.

 

And, considering Ali Dia does not come into the reckoning, if you start talking about Van Damme, Delgado, Chala and others, one could easily point the finger at homegrown players who disappointed equally (what's Mark Hugues's scoring record for Saints?)

 

Now Saints are lucky enough to have a mega-rich foreign backer and even though I'd love to see WGS or NP back in charge, I don't care a tiny bit about the nationality of our next manager. Give me a good manager who'll pick the right players to get SFC back to where it belongs and I'll be the happiest fan on earth.

 

What you need is competence on the board, charisma and tactical nous in the dressing-room and talent on the park. Passports don't have anything to do with that.

Edited 12 July, 2009 by Belgiansaint

[Badger]

Its probably too late for me to engage in a long debate,but do you think that Jurgen Klinsmann ,for the sake of an example, would be able and prepared to do battle in our current league ?

 

We need someone who can tackle the pitfalls of Div One.Passport may not be material to this,but their experience of the challenge and lower league ahead are important.

[chrisobee]

I agree with much of this. I really don't mind who we have for a manager or where they come from though someone with a knowledge of what it takes to deal with playing in League 1 would certainly be an advantage. My own personal opinion of Jan Poortvliet was that he had a lot of good ideas but not the necessary nous to make us a success in the CCC. The fact he is now managing FC Eindhoven who play in the Dutch Div 1 ( effectively the 2nd team of PSV) suggests they think he has something to offer and they may well be right. However, he simply was not cut out to manage a team in the CCC. Doesn't make him a bad manager, just a bad choice in this instance. So aside from a few people who nobody clearly want as manager I'll be happy with anyone with a decent record regardless of their nationality but if we are are to go with a foreign manager then we need someone of high quality, Scolari wouldn't be a bad option !

[Nineteen Canteen]

Its probably too late for me to engage in a long debate,but do you think that Jurgen Klinsmann ,for the sake of an example, would be able and prepared to do battle in our current league ?

 

We need someone who can tackle the pitfalls of Div One.Passport may not be material to this,but their experience of the challenge and lower league ahead are important.

 

De Matteo, the ex- Swansea manager whose names escapes me at the moment, Poyet and no doubt a few others.

 

I agree with BelgianSaint this jingoistic 'British' manager basically means a loud mouth English bloke big on shouting, short on tactical nous. For example, Stuart Pearce, Nigel Pearson, Nigel Warnock and where they try to be different you get the likes of Steve McLaren, Gareth Southgate and Kevin Keegan.

 

No thanks, I think we should go European or Scottish - Craig Levene.

[Belgiansaint]

I do get your point, Badger, but what I mean is if you get the right persons (investor / coaching staff / squad) in the right places then the nationality is irrelevant, while it seems some people on here make it a stumbling block. If you have a Turkish manager getting a Romanian striker banging 20 goals per season, that's fine by me. I am more than certain there are many, many players abroad who'd make the cut at Saints level and who are being written off because they dont have a British pedigree.

 

If Saints are ever to get back to PL level -and Jesus almighty knows how much we want that - it has to start now. I'm not talking about a spending spree, even though a few bob to strengthen the team wouldn't come amiss, but start building a mentality, instilling along-term approach to football. It may take longer before you reap the sows, but the rewards will be all the greater. Just look how teams like WBA were unprepared to take the qualitative step. We have a marvelous opportunity to do just that. Getting prepared for the battles to come is the key.

Edited 12 July, 2009 by Belgiansaint

[IamLeGod]

It's pretty simple really, given the choice of a quality player or an average one of british origin, theres no real decision?

 

I personally feel this has helped many clubs with foreign managers? for example, would a British manager coming into arsenal at the time Mr. Wenger did, be able to remove the deadwood Brits in the team like he did and bring in the quality players he did and build the team he did? I find it a push to believe?

 

Furthermore i often find British "talent" (a term used lightly) is vasty over-rated and simply over-priced! Darren Bent = £16m? really? really? another example is Stewart Downing? Whilst i actually do quite like the guy, i struggle to believe he would be the focus of so much attention if he were just another "Johnny Foreigner".

 

i Stumbled upon (for those not ITK stumbleupon is an awesome firefox toolbar!) this t'other day http://www.goal.com/en/news/2377/top-10/2009/07/07/1368895/top-10-footballing-stereotypes and found the part about England strikingly true. its not 1966 anymore, we havent come close to winning anything since, and even when we did win it, we were hosts, South Korea anyone?

 

This British Manager, British Centre Forward!...blah blah blah nonsense is a distant myth, is Harry Redknapp not a prime example of how this just doesnt really work in practice? even his "success" and spurs has come from quite literally rebuilding Jol's squad...a Dutchman?

 

Whilst in a dream world we would have Le Tiss at the club in some capacity, with a british manager, and half the England U-21s squad, after the past few years i could not care less where a player comes from as long as they pull on the shirt and put in a shift and display some quality...they are a Saint...which is surely the most important thing no?

[Genk]

Its probably too late for me to engage in a long debate,but do you think that Jurgen Klinsmann ,for the sake of an example, would be able and prepared to do battle in our current league ?

 

We need someone who can tackle the pitfalls of Div One.Passport may not be material to this,but their experience of the challenge and lower league ahead are important.

 

Spot on

[Gingeletiss]

Wrong..........what we need is a manager for the next ten years, he needs to be able to perform equally in the 1st Div, CCC, and th PL. He will need to pick and sign players likewise. So I don't care what nationality he is.

 

IMHO of course

[Huffton]

Wrong..........what we need is a manager for the next ten years,

 

Nail hit firmly on head. Although to be fair he needs a bit more tactical cunning than either of our recent foreign imports;)

[Mole]

Wrong..........what we need is a manager for the next ten years, he needs to be able to perform equally in the 1st Div, CCC, and th PL. He will need to pick and sign players likewise. So I don't care what nationality he is.

 

IMHO of course

 

I.E Someone like Nigel Pearson - a manager with hunger, passion, and who players want to play for.

[forever a red and white]

managers with foreign passports that have succeeded in lower leagues and this country because they have playing experience. I think you'll find what fans want is someone who knows the league, the players the type of football and the enivronment

[eurosaint]

I will give my full support to whoever is appointed manager by the new regime !

(will not be happy with Tony Adams but would feel obliged to live with it !).

[Wes Tender]

De Matteo, the ex- Swansea manager whose names escapes me at the moment, Poyet and no doubt a few others.

 

I agree with BelgianSaint this jingoistic 'British' manager basically means a loud mouth English bloke big on shouting, short on tactical nous. For example, Stuart Pearce, Nigel Pearson, Nigel Warnock and where they try to be different you get the likes of Steve McLaren, Gareth Southgate and Kevin Keegan.

 

No thanks, I think we should go European or Scottish - Craig Levene.

 

Does it not occur to you that this sweeping generalisation is ironically precisely the other side of the coin to that which triggered the OP? It isn't about nationalistic stereotyping; the crux of the debate is not about whether a foreign manager is capable of managing in this country, or indeed vice versa. It really is more a case of whether a manager from abroad is likely to have an understanding of football in the English lower divisions and a knowledge of which players either have experience in those divisions, or are able to adapt.

 

Of course there are some exceptions that stand out purely because they are exceptions. The credibility of some of them is diluted because the managers have come in from the top level abroad and managed in the Premiership. The number of examples of foreign managers successful at Chamionship level and below is much rarer and our two Dutch managers are hardly examples that prove the case for foreign managers at this level.

 

The generalisation of foreign managers not being as effective in the lower leagues is similar to the perceived wisdom that you get nowhere playing kids. Although there are examples like Arsenal that go some way to disproving the theory, that again is in the top flight and with the very best quality kids. Similarly, it is much more difficult to point to examples in the lower divisions, as we ourselves proved last season.

[VectisSaint]

I agree with BelgianSaint this jingoistic 'British' manager basically means a loud mouth English bloke big on shouting, short on tactical nous. For example, Stuart Pearce, Nigel Pearson, Nigel Warnock and where they try to be different you get the likes of Steve McLaren, Gareth Southgate and Kevin Keegan.

 

No thanks, I think we should go European or Scottish - Craig Levene.

Can't give it up 19C can you? Still having a go at NP even though he won the 3rd Division last season. Presumably he did that with no tactics or tactical nous, and no understanding of how to play youngsters and how to get good loans in.

 

And then to tout Craig Levein (note spelling). What has Levein done that makes him a tactical genius? Absloutely nothing (and by the way he is British).

 

Going back to someone intelligent, the OP, its not prejudice, its horses for courses. Getting inexperienced Dutch managers in was a disaster, as was Wigley, if you can find the right manager with the right sort of experience it doesn't matter what nationality he is, although an understanding of the English game at the right level is a huge advantage because of the way we play, thats why Martinez was a success at Swansea. Pearson would still be one of the best options if he was available, as unlike 19C's opinion, NP is actually a very well respected manager with good tactical nous, knowledge of the lower leagues and good at working with young players, unfortunately for 19C he speaks with a northern accent and 19C cannot cope with people that don't have a Cotswold plum in their mouth.

[david in sweden]

I have read on numerous occasions on this forum that "we need a British manager", "we need a real, typical English CB / striker / winger" or that "English football is now in the hands of foreigners". I know full well this has much to do with the way football is played in England, especially in the lower divisions.

What you need is competence on the board, charisma and tactical nous in the dressing-room and talent on the park. Passports don't have anything to do with that.

 

 

AGREED ! Belgiansaint.

In fact ...were it not for the World Cup victory (in extra time) 1966, England would have no more to crow about than; Scotland, or Northern Ireland for that matter. YES, we have produced some exceptional playing talent over the past decades; Linaker, Shearer, even Channon in his prime. Shearer and the young Michael Owen but there has never been any depth in the England squads over the years. England always failed in sight on the winning post - because of our inability to train players to score from the penalty spot.

Successful English managers are few are far between in this period and the most successful (Brian Clough) was one of the most highly-criticised.

See the top Premiership sides and look for ENGLISH managers ! (not many). In fact the Scots have supplied most of the success. Busby, Ferguson, Dalglish have all won the League and Cup trophies. Europeans like ; Wenger and Benitez and Hiddinck have chipped in, too. Our last English National manager (MacLaren) wasn't even a successful club manager. His English predecessors; Hoddle, Keegan and Venables who all had good careers proved no better at the task.

 

So......who are the English managers who really make it ? Last seasons most successful ENGLISH managers were ;.. 'appy 'arry R. and Roy Hodgson - neither of whom filled their sides with ENGLISH players.¨

 

Patriotism is fine ..but who are the heroes we are seeking after ?

Edited 12 July, 2009 by david in sweden

[RonManager]

De Matteo, the ex- Swansea manager whose names escapes me at the moment, Poyet and no doubt a few others.

 

I agree with BelgianSaint this jingoistic 'British' manager basically means a loud mouth English bloke big on shouting, short on tactical nous. For example, Stuart Pearce, Nigel Pearson, Nigel Warnock and where they try to be different you get the likes of Steve McLaren, Gareth Southgate and Kevin Keegan.

 

No thanks, I think we should go European or Scottish - Craig Levene.

 

Craig Levein - Excellent choice - I remember watching him play regularly for Hearts when I lived up there until a bad knee injury ended his career. He was a good team captain and has definitely learned the ropes up there in management at all levels. He is what I would call a 'caring disciplinarian' and would be ideal for a mix of young lads and old pros.

[macthesaint]

Perhaps we should go back to this thread when we've just lost a midweek game at

Bristol Rovers due to a big lump British centre forward getting on the end of a deep cross.

I agree we shouldnt be blinkered in our thinking but what's the old English saying..horses for courses?

I know Martinez did well in div1 but last season that promotion was won by Pearson,Ferguson and Atkins with very few foreign players.NO MORE EXPERIMENTS PLEASE.

[saintbletch]

Wrong..........what we need is a manager for the next ten years, he needs to be able to perform equally in the 1st Div, CCC, and th PL. He will need to pick and sign players likewise. So I don't care what nationality he is.

 

IMHO of course

 

I agree completely with this but there is a prerequisite or two to allow this to happen. Firstly, our new owner has to have the stomach and balls to stick with the manager through tough times (Steve Gibson's backing of Gareth Southgate at Middlesbro). Secondly, and this is where the problems may start, we need a support that will get behind the team unconditionally.

[Redondo Saint]

What prejudice FFS?

 

I want the right person for the job. Nationality doesn't come into the picture.

 

It just so happens that outside of the premiership most successful managers are British and either played or coached in various divisions for several years.

 

The ability to motivate and prepare a team in this division is perhaps better suited to a Brit, whereas the Premiership's more technical requirements appear to work well for non-British managers.

[david in sweden]

What prejudice FFS?

 

I want the right person for the job. Nationality doesn't come into the picture.

 

It just so happens that outside of the premiership most successful managers are British and either played or coached in various divisions for several years.

 

The ability to motivate and prepare a team in this division is perhaps better suited to a Brit, whereas the Premiership's more technical requirements appear to work well for non-British managers.

 

 

Thats always been my point Chris,

In the lower leagues the requirements are different and in L1, skill may take a second place to more muscle in the back line and the long ball game played on a ploughed field.

 

Because the Premiership has so many European " carrots" to go after, teams have to totally " re-think " for a Euro-style, which is something that many British managers are unfamiliar with. Another reason why the England squad is so poor is because foreign managers choose foreign players who CDAJFU and ignore home-grown talents, who in consequence don't get to play so often in the Prem.

[Redondo Saint]

Thats always been my point Chris,

In the lower leagues the requirements are different and in L1, skill may take a second place to more muscle in the back line and the long ball game played on a ploughed field.

 

Because the Premiership has so many European " carrots" to go after, teams have to totally " re-think " for a Euro-style, which is something that many British managers are unfamiliar with. Another reason why the England squad is so poor is because foreign managers choose foreign players who CDAJFU and ignore home-grown talents, who in consequence don't get to play so often in the Prem.

 

yup.

 

I would be surprised if the manager that gets us promoted from League 1 to the Premiership will remain the manager.

[alpine_saint]

yup.

 

I would be surprised if the manager that gets us promoted from League 1 to the Premiership will remain the manager.

 

As sad an endictment of the modern game as there is..

[RonManager]

As sad an endictment of the modern game as there is..

 

sigh:(

[Redondo Saint]

As sad an endictment of the modern game as there is..

 

If fans want management and squad stability they better hope we don't reach the Premiership.

[Saint Fen]

Wrong..........what we need is a manager for the next ten years, he needs to be able to perform equally in the 1st Div, CCC, and th PL. He will need to pick and sign players likewise. So I don't care what nationality he is.

 

IMHO of course

 

I agree and I honestly think Tisdale is this person, we need a manager who is going to be here for the long ride not just one or two seasons, this obviously means the club needs the managers loyalty as well as the club being loyal to the manager but the manager most do a good job to start off with.

 

Perhaps we should go back to this thread when we've just lost a midweek game at

Bristol Rovers due to a big lump British centre forward getting on the end of a deep cross.

I agree we shouldnt be blinkered in our thinking but what's the old English saying..horses for courses?

I know Martinez did well in div1 but last season that promotion was won by Pearson,Ferguson and Atkins with very few foreign players.NO MORE EXPERIMENTS PLEASE.

 

Matinez had experience of lower league English football as he signed for Wigan in 1995. Very few Managers will succeed in the lower leagues of English football without the knowledge of it, this is why the next manager needs to be British or from British Football.

[Saint Fen]

yup.

 

I would be surprised if the manager that gets us promoted from League 1 to the Premiership will remain the manager.

 

As sad an endictment of the modern game as there is..

 

This is the crazy thing, no clubs shows Managers too much Loyalty these days but the same goes for Managers and Players.

 

And People wonder why managers decide to leave for so call 'bigger clubs'.

 

If fans want management and squad stability they better hope we don't reach the Premiership.

 

This is the sad state of English Football these days, I really think that should a team be relegated with a manager who has achieved promotion the manager (within reason) should be given the chance to rebuilt.

[SaintBobby]

We need a manager who can get us from League One to the Premiership in about five years. If (mind wanders off to dreamland) we get to the Premiership and want to build within it, we need a different structure to the team (pace and technique becoming comparatively more important than physical strength).

 

I wouldn't want to overplay the assertion that you need to "kick your way" out of L1 and the CCC, but there's some truth in it.

 

I was initially attracted by the Dutch experiment - but it's not the sort of football that works in the lower levels.

[qwertySFC]

I think we need a structure running through the club that promotes winning, because after all "our plan" is to win ourselves out of this league and into the higher leagues . Winning games upon a consistant basis and getting results is a frame of mind , if you take England for example , look at the difference Capello has made in the minds of the players.

 

Unfortunatly , the "English" managerial system of football is way out of date in todays high profile game , players need to know that the team comes first above all else, hate to say it but Fergie instills this factor into his teams , I really don't see any of the usual suspects maybe (WGs) having the ability to deliver , either 1 of 2 man I'd like to see here , who instills winning as a habit , has the credentials to develop the best out of our squad , has an indepth knowledge of the European network of players is either Horst Hrubesch or Ottmar Hitzfeld

 

all in MHO of course , this idea of a good up and comming manager with some thing to prove is not sustainable and few have made the grade outside of the lower leagues. What any manager of SFC is dealing with now is possibly a large budget , the correct signings are so important , the scouting network must be re-developed along with the youth development programme , we need a manager who is used to working across all of these departments , not some one who got a few extra points on the board for a lower league team , i don't buy the concept that a manager requires lower league experience , what a manager needs is experience of running what can be a top level club

Edited 12 July, 2009 by qwertySFC

[david in sweden]

yup.

 

I would be surprised if the manager that gets us promoted from League 1 to the Premiership will remain the manager.

 

I'm pretty sure he won't be...UNLESS it's an established name like Strachan, Keegan or Hoddle.

 

Hull hung on by the skin of their teeth, and West Brom. didn't !

Their managers did great jobs to get the up but weren't capable of keeping up the pace at the highest level.

[offix]

I don't think this is about prejudice at all.

It has to be about who could get us promoted all the way up to the Prem, and there is a perfectly good argument to be made for experience.

Experience it the lower leagues counts. Whether the manager is British or not is irrelevant. Much more important is whether they have managed in these lower leagues in England before and what their success rate is.

[stthrobber]

I'm pretty sure he won't be...UNLESS it's an established name like Strachan, Keegan or Hoddle.

 

Hull hung on by the skin of their teeth, and West Brom. didn't !

Their managers did great jobs to get the up but weren't capable of keeping up the pace at the highest level.

 

The problem is for these clubs, as it will be for any club, is that promotion is one thing, but you then need a huge outlay to bring the CCC squad up to Prem level. As Stoke are finding, many foreign players want to play for big named established clubs, not provincial outfits like theirs.

 

Phil Brown was touted as a possible manager for us a couple of years back and dismissed by many as inexperienced and not good enough. The former was true at the time, but not now. He's proved his worth amply.

 

I would like to see a British manager because if our clubs keep appointing foreign all the time, then our own coaching systems will become irrelevant.

 

We can learn so much from the continent without doubt, but we need to learn from them, and teach our own coaches so that we don't struggle to think of capable, good quality British guys. (the same goes for our young players too)

 

The fact that the big clubs appoint foreign coaches before considering Brits is a sad indictment on our own system.

 

Having said that, if a club appoints a foreign coach and backs him with unlimited funds, then a reasonable level of success can be guaranteed. Notice the decline in Arsenal's success levels since the move to the Emirates and decline in funding too.

 

The Dutch experiment was a disaster last season because neither of the appointed coaches had experience at this level. It might have worked if Boothroyd had been appointed for example. It also failed because whilst the idea of youth and experience was a decent one, the cuts made were too swingeing and the blend was all wrong.

[Belgiansaint]

Which seems to go to show that the English coaching system is close to nowhere? How many top English coaches have left England to go on and enjoy success at the highest level wherever they went? I am pretty convinced that someone like Wenger would be pretty successful almost anywhere on the planet. Name ONE English coach who would arguably be as successful in a footballwise attractive league (ie Italy, Spain, Germany, France - marginally Holland to make room for McLaren)

[70's Mike]

personally i do not care if the new manager is a two headed alien from the planet Zog as long as he gets a team that can win home games, draw and win a few away.

not even worried about attractive football as long as we win

[Redondo Saint]

personally i do not care if the new manager is a two headed alien from the planet Zog as long as he gets a team that can win home games, draw and win a few away.

not even worried about attractive football as long as we win

 

Burley?

[Redondo Saint]

Which seems to go to show that the English coaching system is close to nowhere? How many top English coaches have left England to go on and enjoy success at the highest level wherever they went? I am pretty convinced that someone like Wenger would be pretty successful almost anywhere on the planet. Name ONE English coach who would arguably be as successful in a footballwise attractive league (ie Italy, Spain, Germany, France - marginally Holland to make room for McLaren)

 

Venables, Hodgson, Robson.

[70's Mike]

Burley?

 

If we won games

[Belgiansaint]

Venables, Hodgson, Robson.

I stand corrected for Venables and Sir Bobby, but can't remember Hodgson getting major results. May be wrong, though.

[Saint 76er]

I think we need a structure running through the club that promotes winning, because after all "our plan" is to win ourselves out of this league and into the higher leagues . Winning games upon a consistant basis and getting results is a frame of mind , if you take England for example , look at the difference Capello has made in the minds of the players.

 

Unfortunatly , the "English" managerial system of football is way out of date in todays high profile game , players need to know that the team comes first above all else, hate to say it but Fergie instills this factor into his teams , I really don't see any of the usual suspects maybe (WGs) having the ability to deliver , either 1 of 2 man I'd like to see here , who instills winning as a habit , has the credentials to develop the best out of our squad , has an indepth knowledge of the European network of players is either Horst Hrubesch or Ottmar Hitzfeld

 

all in MHO of course , this idea of a good up and comming manager with some thing to prove is not sustainable and few have made the grade outside of the lower leagues. What any manager of SFC is dealing with now is possibly a large budget , the correct signings are so important , the scouting network must be re-developed along with the youth development programme , we need a manager who is used to working across all of these departments , not some one who got a few extra points on the board for a lower league team , i don't buy the concept that a manager requires lower league experience , what a manager needs is experience of running what can be a top level club

 

Absolutely agree with this qwerty.

 

I think people are getting carried away with this lower league manager syndrome, surely that is not why a billionaire just paid a (relative) fortune to buy this club with the stated aim of propelling it back to the premiership in the shortest possible time.

 

Did he spend this money in the desperate hope that Micky Adams might just still be available?... I doubt it.

 

Mr Liebherr will presumably be looking at more upmarket candidates exactly for the types of reasons qwerty has mentioned and rather than a lower league guy who might just get us back to CCC I would want a man appointed now who is well capable of doing that, followed by promotion to prem and keeping us there. Things could be reviewed at that stage.

 

More I think about it the more I like the idea of a foreign coach with proven coaching skills, a winning mentality and no baggage in the English game. Also we may well attract a higher profile candidate as per the names above who would respect our new owner and may accept his challenge to return us to the highest echelon, where of course we belong!

 

With this in mind I'll throw one further name in the ring that's not been mentioned much... Slaven Bilic.

 

[eesti matty]

I stand corrected for Venables and Sir Bobby, but can't remember Hodgson getting major results. May be wrong, though.

 

Hodgson tends to get overlooked because many of his achievements have been with teams that have punched above their weight and many of his 'successes' have been relative, but still very impressive.

 

As for his time at Inter, he got to a UEFA Cup final and finished 3rd in the league.