4-5-1

[Legod Third Coming]

I don't like to question the manager too much when the majority of his decision making has been ok, but why oh why can we not go back to the 4-5-1 that was working? Even against Ipswich, our best spell came when we switched to 4-5-1. It gives us more steel in the middle, more width and actually creates more goal scoring opportunites for us. I am baffled.

[jam]

I don't like to question the manager too much when the majority of his decision making has been ok, but why oh why can we not go back to the 4-5-1 that was working? Even against Ipswich, our best spell came when we switched to 4-5-1. It gives us more steel in the middle, more width and actually creates more goal scoring opportunites for us. I am baffled.

 

We went back to 4-4-2 (and started Antonio in place of Waigo) when we played Brighton. That was the end of our great run and we haven't looked as good (at least at home) since that change.

[doggface]

Agree 100%

[Stepgar]

I don't like to question the manager too much when the majority of his decision making has been ok, but why oh why can we not go back to the 4-5-1 that was working? Even against Ipswich, our best spell came when we switched to 4-5-1. It gives us more steel in the middle, more width and actually creates more goal scoring opportunites for us. I am baffled.

 

I for one agree completely.

 

All in favour say I, aye, eye, high (Silent H)

[Bartosz Bialkowski]

I agree 100000%. Its our formation, we look like two different teams with 451 and 442.

 

Disappointed that Pardew seems to have changed it to accommodate Barnard.

[Saint Fan CaM]

I would counter the OP by saying why do we need to stick with one system?!?!?

 

4-5-1 should be played when we wish to dominate midfield. When we wish to play both Lallana and Waigo, because they compliment each other (more 4-3-3 really). However, the tendency is to hoof to Lambert when this system is played.

 

4-4-2 is better understood IMO and brings a different option based on the opposition, the type of pitch and a myriad of other reasons.

 

In short, it's better to have both options, but retain consistency of the team sheet when playing those respective options.

[Bartosz Bialkowski]

I would counter the OP by saying why do we need to stick with one system?!?!?

 

4-5-1 should be played when we wish to dominate midfield. When we wish to play both Lallana and Waigo, because they compliment each other (more 4-3-3 really). However, the tendency is to hoof to Lambert when this system is played.

 

4-4-2 is better understood IMO and brings a different option based on the opposition, the type of pitch and a myriad of other reasons.

 

In short, it's better to have both options, but retain consistency of the team sheet when playing those respective options.

 

But how about the small fact that when we play 4-4-2, we struggle to score, struggle to gain and retain possession and generally look a completely different team?

 

Yes, have a plan 'B'. But dont make it your plan 'A' when it doesnt fookin work!

[Block 5]

AP plays 4-4-2 : people moan.

 

AP plays 4-5-1 : people moan.

 

Solution? Stop moaning and let the manager do his job?

 

PS. The formation and shape of the team will change, according to who we are playing.

[Bwanamakubwa]

4-5-1 is by far and aware our better formation. Some on here who think it's negative are barmy. It gives us options and confidence. We dot have two centre mfielders good enough to dominate the play but with a third, they have the confidence to get themselves involved. All it means is lambert will have less opportunities but they will still come.

[yorkiesaint]

4-5-1 is by far and aware our better formation. Some on here who think it's negative are barmy. It gives us options and confidence. We dot have two centre mfielders good enough to dominate the play but with a third, they have the confidence to get themselves involved. All it means is lambert will have less opportunities but they will still come.

 

Yes this is it exactly, our midfield is not good enough for 4 4 2, with too many that can attack or defend, rather than do both jobs well.

[once_bitterne]

Our defence has improved a lot since the early part of the season and will only improve as Conte settles in and Pardew works out who to partner him with, Jaidi, Seaborne or even Perry.

 

The main problem of late is that we are not scoring the goals we were earlier in the season. The 3 main reason for this seem to be:

 

1. Lambert is badly out of form. He was scoring for fun earlier in the season, now if you take out pens and free kicks, his scoring record is poor of late.

 

2. Lallana was looking very good when we were hitting form in Nov but has gone off the boil since.

 

3. Conolly - a very important player to the team who we are missing since he has been injured.

[Legod Third Coming]

Our defence has improved a lot since the early part of the season and will only improve as Conte settles in and Pardew works out who to partner him with, Jaidi, Seaborne or even Perry.

 

The main problem of late is that we are not scoring the goals we were earlier in the season. The 3 main reason for this seem to be:

 

1. Lambert is badly out of form. He was scoring for fun earlier in the season, now if you take out pens and free kicks, his scoring record is poor of late.

 

2. Lallana was looking very good when we were hitting form in Nov but has gone off the boil since.

 

3. Conolly - a very important player to the team who we are missing since he has been injured.

 

I would counter that by saying that Lallana was playing much better in a different formation/role and Lambert simply isn't getting the ball.

 

On Saturday all our goal-scoring chances came when we switched to 4-5-1 (apart from the Thomas Thunderbolt which could have come in any formation).

 

I liked how we started 4-5-1, dominated the game, battered our opposition and then switched to 4-4-2 late on to grab additional goals!!

 

And I am a firm believer that WE SHOULD PLAY TO OUR STRENGTHS not pander our formation to the opposition!!!

 

(But as I said above, I still have 100% faith in AP, but I just want to understand what he is seeing that I am not).

[once_bitterne]

What you say does have some sense to it. Lambert with Waigo and Lallana alongside him and then Conolly/Barnard on the bench is pretty formidable.

 

I guess the transfer of Barnard is pushing Pardew ever further into 442 as it would be pointless to buy one of the top L1 goalscorers and then not play him regularly.

 

I'm not sure that Barnard would really fit into a 433 as he doesn't really seem to have the pace to play anywhere other than where Lambert is.

[Arizona]

Whenever we have a poor result or performance people are always quick to blame the formation, regardless of what we are playing. It was only a few weeks ago people we criticising Pardew for NOT playing 4-4-2.

 

There have been a lot of poor performances this season playing 4-5-1 and I'm not a big fan of it. Lambert tends to get isolated on his own and we just end up hoofing it up to him. Not saying that doesn't happen with 4-4-2, but in some games we have tried both formations and that has looked better. Torquay on the JPT for instance.

 

I wasn't there last night but looking at that team... Wotton and James aren't the moat gifted midfielders we've ever had. Lallana and Lambert have been looking jaded recently and Barnard is still getting used to our team (along with the entire defence). I'd stick with 4-4-2, but for Pete's sake give it time (and some better midfielders).

[Scudamore]

Not sure we were playing 4-4-2 for large parts of the game against Ipswich.

 

Seemed to me that Barnard and Lambert were taking it in turns to play the lone front man.

 

Although i could be wrong in that assessment of course.

[derry]

We played 4-4-2 last night were 1-0 up and created good chances. In the second half we changed to 4-5-1 to hold the lead and were overrun, conceded then brought on Waigo and went two up front to try and win.

 

I personally think it is more to do with the players picked than a system. At the moment despite the number of players we have, we aren't anywhere nearly as good as some people think.

 

Antonio is a raw young player that isn't an accomplished footballer and is erratic. He has pace but isn't as quick as Waigo or as good a footballer. He plays with his head down when in possession and his output isn't that good.

 

Waigo isn't great defensively, but apart from the tendency to be offside gives us a better cutting edge.

 

We don't have enough pace in the side, or the balance to go with it. We need a left sided quick midfielder and both attacking and all round central midfielders.

 

The central midfield is nowhere near good enough. All the players have deficiencies, none of them are able to to an all round job.

 

Until we resolve the pace, balance and sort out the midfield we won't dominate the best teams in this division, whatever the system.

[JibMcdo]

Whenever we have a poor result or performance people are always quick to blame the formation, regardless of what we are playing. It was only a few weeks ago people we criticising Pardew for NOT playing 4-4-2.

 

There have been a lot of poor performances this season playing 4-5-1 and I'm not a big fan of it. Lambert tends to get isolated on his own and we just end up hoofing it up to him. Not saying that doesn't happen with 4-4-2, but in some games we have tried both formations and that has looked better. Torquay on the JPT for instance.

 

I wasn't there last night but looking at that team... Wotton and James aren't the moat gifted midfielders we've ever had. Lallana and Lambert have been looking jaded recently and Barnard is still getting used to our team (along with the entire defence). I'd stick with 4-4-2, but for Pete's sake give it time (and some better midfielders).

 

IMO, we need to play 4-5-1 until we get these better midfielders.

[del boy]

More important is the passion to win - weve got to play like its the cup final, then do the same again next week. The opposition should never look as though they want it more.

If we can match the effort our extra quality should tip the balance

[Toadhall Saint]

I don't like to question the manager too much when the majority of his decision making has been ok, but why oh why can we not go back to the 4-5-1 that was working? Even against Ipswich, our best spell came when we switched to 4-5-1. It gives us more steel in the middle, more width and actually creates more goal scoring opportunites for us. I am baffled.

 

Been saying it for a while - we look far more accomplished playing 451 or 433. Problem is we have some midfielders that perfom better with 451 - Morgan for instance and some that perform better with 442 - Lloyd James for instance.

[Window Cleaner]

Doubt if it's really the system at fault.We have too many fairies starting every game for a 4-4-2 to work, if you want to start Lallana, Barnard and Lambert (not that they're fairies) then you have to forego say Antonio or any other player without ball winning qualities because Lallana certainly isn't going to frighten tough opposition midfielders in tackles.We've got the balance wrong

you need 1 player who just knows how to win the ball, 2 who know how to win it and use it and 1 more to profit from the work of these 3 to set up the front line.If you want to use 2 wide players then you have to go 4-5-1, what we're playing sounds more like a 4-3-1-2 set up to me.

[up and away]

I don't like to question the manager too much when the majority of his decision making has been ok, but why oh why can we not go back to the 4-5-1 that was working? Even against Ipswich, our best spell came when we switched to 4-5-1. It gives us more steel in the middle, more width and actually creates more goal scoring opportunites for us. I am baffled.

 

I would go further than that, this is totally Pardews fault and he has repeated the same error so many times he requires a serious tap to set him straight.

 

This is all about one thing, midfield control. Whether the system is 451, 442 on it's own is not so important. What is important, is that what ever system you use with the players available, gives you that midfield control. We have found that 451 gives us that control and we have no issues creating chances, in fact the opposite most of the time. You have to be a total idiot to keep trying 442 when it is obvious that you are exposing your defence because of the formation employed. Pardew has been desperate to use 442 so he can get both his quality strikers on at the same time. The problem is that we do not have the midfield or manager to make it work for what ever reason and we have done nothing about it by bringing in new players for that position. The players we have brought in are in areas where their improvement to the squad is marginal compared to the blindingly obvious, the midfield.

 

One very important point I have noticed from 451 is that it gives us a strangle hold over the opposition, although we have conceded goals against the run of play. When we subsequently have switched to 442 we have for some reason maintained that control. Why, I cannot explain but it has happened enough times to stand out like a donkeys **** on a budgie.

 

This has cost us so many points already it's criminal. If you take all the good points and bad points from Pardews previous, you have them all on display this season. Now we seem to be going through the bedding in of the new players or more like, too much choice is confusing Pardew. When you consider that Paul Lambert had to turn round the worst form team in the league to the best nigh on immediately, just shows the relative merits of each. It's criminal that all the money and resources we have,just to get a lucky 1-1 draw, against a squad that cost about one left foots worth of one of our players.

[John B]

I don't like to question the manager too much when the majority of his decision making has been ok, but why oh why can we not go back to the 4-5-1 that was working? Even against Ipswich, our best spell came when we switched to 4-5-1. It gives us more steel in the middle, more width and actually creates more goal scoring opportunites for us. I am baffled.

 

Perhaps the teams we have been playing against recently are better than the teams we beat last year and players like Lallana and Lambert are not playing as well but James and Davis are playing better.

 

Constantly changing the team does not help either

Edited 27 January, 2010 by John B