simo Posted 13 March, 2011 Share Posted 13 March, 2011 Good bit by Daren Wheeler about bompey and our "rivalry" in his beautiful south section ! Well worth a read Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMikey Posted 13 March, 2011 Share Posted 13 March, 2011 I don't like The Echo, but always buy The Pink on a Sunday morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daren W Posted 13 March, 2011 Share Posted 13 March, 2011 This week’s column comes to you courtesy of hindsight. It’s once again one of the weeks where the main topic of conversation is Saturday’s game against Bompey. Yes by the time you read this article Saints will either have leap frogged Bournemouth into second place or are still behind them with everything to play for. Either way, our “neighbours” down the road are the topic of conversation right now. Right now being the operative word, Gordon Simpson’s article in Friday’s Echo was an interesting one, apparently the rivalry between the two teams is very real and very much in the present. Well it would be, we’re in the same league and battling it out toe to toe for the automatic promotions places. But come next season, if the clubs are in different leagues, who will really give a stuff about AFC Bournemouth? I won’t. Like a lot of Saints fans, I used to have a soft spot when it came to the Cherries, that was until about ten years ago when I attended a pre-season friendly at Dean Court with my late mother. Bournemouth were in financial disarray and Saints, under Dave Jones, brought a full strength side down to Bournemouth along with a full away support to put money in their coffers and help them in their time of need. It was an eye opener, far from being grateful that not only did we bring money but also a fair amount of goodwill, Bournemouth were out and out hostile towards us. We’d arrived early and made the mistake of drifting in with the home fans not really thinking there’d be any ill feeling towards the visitors. It was monumentally naïve and within 15 minutes of the game a kindly, Saints supporting steward, had moved my mother and myself away from the home fans and in with the Saints fans. But, as I said, it was an eye opener and from that moment on my opinions on the Cherries changed irrevocably and any goodwill I had towards them quickly disappeared. Bournemouth fans have some serious chips on their shoulders but not for reasons of locality or history…. Bournemouth fans hate Southampton FC for one reason and one reason only, jealousy. That jealousy was all too apparent at those two pre-season friendlies, the very fact that they needed the money from Saints fans hurt them. Whilst most of the travelling Saints fans thought they were doing Bournemouth a favour they were in fact laying the foundations for ten years of green eyed resentment. “Ah, but you Saints fans are arrogant and have rubbed our noses in it ever since” Bournemouth fans replied. Did we? As far as I was concerned we were showing a bit of south coast solidarity only to see that solidarity thrown back in our faces. South coast rivalry? Don’t make me laugh, the moment the two clubs are in different leagues again Bournemouth will be a distant memory to me; I’ll no more cast an eye over their results than I will Yeovil or Reading. The sad fact that most Bompey fans hate is that there is no rivalry other than the here and now, the moment that’s gone then so are Bournemouth in the minds of most Saints fans. There is only one south coast rivalry and that’s between Southampton and Portsmouth, for anyone to claim that Bournemouth are in any way shape or form any kind of real rivals for us is just farcical. The comments from Bournemouth chairman Eddie Mitchell are the words of a chancer looking for a bit of cheap publicity. Take a look at the Bournemouth Echo’s own website and the words of “journalist” Neil Meldrum and you see yet another cheap attempt at stirring the hatred, if “Rather than welcome the boot being on the other foot after so many years of playing David to the Premier League’s Goliaths, an undercurrent of arrogance began to seep out of St Mary’s. The tiny club of the 90s was now far too big to welcome the likes of AFC Bournemouth and Dagenham & Redbridge to its 32,000-seater St Mary’s home” doesn’t smack of attention seeking then nothing does. If Mr Meldrum doesn’t have the acumen to see that a 32,000 seater stadium, the best youth Academy outside of the Premiership and a set up that is universally regarded as Premiership class, doesn’t belong in League One then it says more about him than it does about anyone else. Southampton aren’t a big club, that’s a fact, we’re in League One and in the big scheme of things there are clubs bigger than us up and down the country. BUT in League One, like it or not, Southampton are a big club. Owned by a Billionaire family, a UEFA standard football ground, a world class Academy, only an idiot would say that in this league we’re not a big fish. Either idiots or desperate attention seekers. Come on Saints, and let's get back to talking about proper rivals... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 13 March, 2011 Share Posted 13 March, 2011 This is boring me now, if the roles were reversed we would be exactly the same. I don't see what the issue is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 13 March, 2011 Share Posted 13 March, 2011 Pretty sure that Exeter and Plymouth are rivals and that, having won, we are not second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaMarlin Posted 13 March, 2011 Share Posted 13 March, 2011 I don't like The Echo, but always buy The Pink on a Sunday morning. I always preferred it when you could buy it at 6pm on a Saturday night in your newsagents. And the two inside back pages were choc full of local match reports, three paragraphs on the first half half all phoned in by dutiful club secretaries at half-time, with second-half scorers and the results on the final whistle. Oh for the days of Bramtoco v AC Delco, and Saints A team in the Hampshire League. And technology was supposed to move everything forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 13 March, 2011 Share Posted 13 March, 2011 I always preferred it when you could buy it at 6pm on a Saturday night in your newsagents. And the two inside back pages were choc full of local match reports, three paragraphs on the first half half all phoned in by dutiful club secretaries at half-time, with second-half scorers and the results on the final whistle. Oh for the days of Bramtoco v AC Delco, and Saints A team in the Hampshire League. And technology was supposed to move everything forward. Think Saints had a B team as well at one point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harwellsaint Posted 13 March, 2011 Share Posted 13 March, 2011 wish i could compose such an accurate piece, sums up how all saints fans feel , good skills mush uts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harwellsaint Posted 13 March, 2011 Share Posted 13 March, 2011 what i just said!This week’s column comes to you courtesy of hindsight. It’s once again one of the weeks where the main topic of conversation is Saturday’s game against Bompey. Yes by the time you read this article Saints will either have leap frogged Bournemouth into second place or are still behind them with everything to play for. Either way, our “neighbours” down the road are the topic of conversation right now. Right now being the operative word, Gordon Simpson’s article in Friday’s Echo was an interesting one, apparently the rivalry between the two teams is very real and very much in the present. Well it would be, we’re in the same league and battling it out toe to toe for the automatic promotions places. But come next season, if the clubs are in different leagues, who will really give a stuff about AFC Bournemouth? I won’t. Like a lot of Saints fans, I used to have a soft spot when it came to the Cherries, that was until about ten years ago when I attended a pre-season friendly at Dean Court with my late mother. Bournemouth were in financial disarray and Saints, under Dave Jones, brought a full strength side down to Bournemouth along with a full away support to put money in their coffers and help them in their time of need. It was an eye opener, far from being grateful that not only did we bring money but also a fair amount of goodwill, Bournemouth were out and out hostile towards us. We’d arrived early and made the mistake of drifting in with the home fans not really thinking there’d be any ill feeling towards the visitors. It was monumentally naïve and within 15 minutes of the game a kindly, Saints supporting steward, had moved my mother and myself away from the home fans and in with the Saints fans. But, as I said, it was an eye opener and from that moment on my opinions on the Cherries changed irrevocably and any goodwill I had towards them quickly disappeared. Bournemouth fans have some serious chips on their shoulders but not for reasons of locality or history…. Bournemouth fans hate Southampton FC for one reason and one reason only, jealousy. That jealousy was all too apparent at those two pre-season friendlies, the very fact that they needed the money from Saints fans hurt them. Whilst most of the travelling Saints fans thought they were doing Bournemouth a favour they were in fact laying the foundations for ten years of green eyed resentment. “Ah, but you Saints fans are arrogant and have rubbed our noses in it ever since” Bournemouth fans replied. Did we? As far as I was concerned we were showing a bit of south coast solidarity only to see that solidarity thrown back in our faces. South coast rivalry? Don’t make me laugh, the moment the two clubs are in different leagues again Bournemouth will be a distant memory to me; I’ll no more cast an eye over their results than I will Yeovil or Reading. The sad fact that most Bompey fans hate is that there is no rivalry other than the here and now, the moment that’s gone then so are Bournemouth in the minds of most Saints fans. There is only one south coast rivalry and that’s between Southampton and Portsmouth, for anyone to claim that Bournemouth are in any way shape or form any kind of real rivals for us is just farcical. The comments from Bournemouth chairman Eddie Mitchell are the words of a chancer looking for a bit of cheap publicity. Take a look at the Bournemouth Echo’s own website and the words of “journalist” Neil Meldrum and you see yet another cheap attempt at stirring the hatred, if “Rather than welcome the boot being on the other foot after so many years of playing David to the Premier League’s Goliaths, an undercurrent of arrogance began to seep out of St Mary’s. The tiny club of the 90s was now far too big to welcome the likes of AFC Bournemouth and Dagenham & Redbridge to its 32,000-seater St Mary’s home” doesn’t smack of attention seeking then nothing does. If Mr Meldrum doesn’t have the acumen to see that a 32,000 seater stadium, the best youth Academy outside of the Premiership and a set up that is universally regarded as Premiership class, doesn’t belong in League One then it says more about him than it does about anyone else. Southampton aren’t a big club, that’s a fact, we’re in League One and in the big scheme of things there are clubs bigger than us up and down the country. BUT in League One, like it or not, Southampton are a big club. Owned by a Billionaire family, a UEFA standard football ground, a world class Academy, only an idiot would say that in this league we’re not a big fish. Either idiots or desperate attention seekers. Come on Saints, and let's get back to talking about proper rivals... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toomer Posted 13 March, 2011 Share Posted 13 March, 2011 I always enjoy reading Daren's bit in The Pink always has something constructive to say, I know there are a number who will not agree with me but it would be nice if we could bring back the BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocco boxo Posted 13 March, 2011 Share Posted 13 March, 2011 It's Ours! best ever Pink headline! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissyboy31 Posted 13 March, 2011 Share Posted 13 March, 2011 Sh!te name. Bring back the Football Echo!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 13 March, 2011 Share Posted 13 March, 2011 Ahh yes another saints fan that is so unbothered he pens a whole piece in the paper on it, it seems odd to me that so many people are so unbothered by bompey that they spend so much effort telling everyone they're not bothered...................surely if we're not bothered we just wouldn't mention them at all.................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Balls Posted 13 March, 2011 Share Posted 13 March, 2011 Ahh yes another saints fan that is so unbothered he pens a whole piece in the paper on it, it seems odd to me that so many people are so unbothered by bompey that they spend so much effort telling everyone they're not bothered...................surely if we're not bothered we just wouldn't mention them at all.................... Yes they would. If it was Swindon saying how much they hate us, we would react in similar ways. Only natural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastleighSoulBoy Posted 13 March, 2011 Share Posted 13 March, 2011 It's Ours! best ever Pink headline! I have a commemorative glass beaker with that on, did have a pair but someone broke the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valesaint Posted 13 March, 2011 Share Posted 13 March, 2011 I remember buying the Pink at the Woolston Ferry every Saturday. Those were the days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 13 March, 2011 Share Posted 13 March, 2011 I went off to college in nottingham at the tender age of 15, my parents didnt even have a phone til a year after I went. My dad sent a regular weekly letter to me together with that weeks football echo, I still reckon that kept me sane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CityRanger Posted 13 March, 2011 Share Posted 13 March, 2011 Sh!te name. Bring back the Football Echo!!! Agreed. And it's not even pink anymore! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daren W Posted 14 March, 2011 Share Posted 14 March, 2011 Ahh yes another saints fan that is so unbothered he pens a whole piece in the paper on it, it seems odd to me that so many people are so unbothered by bompey that they spend so much effort telling everyone they're not bothered...................surely if we're not bothered we just wouldn't mention them at all.................... So let me get this straight, on the weekend we're playing Bournemouth I'm not allowed to comment on them? To be fair I'm getting bored about the people who are saying they're bored. It's a local derby but a really minuscule one. I'm fully entitled to write about the cherries on a weekend we're playing them ffs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 14 March, 2011 Share Posted 14 March, 2011 Yes they would. If it was Swindon saying how much they hate us, we would react in similar ways. Only natural. Which basically proves you are bothered So let me get this straight, on the weekend we're playing Bournemouth I'm not allowed to comment on them? To be fair I'm getting bored about the people who are saying they're bored. It's a local derby but a really minuscule one. I'm fully entitled to write about the cherries on a weekend we're playing them ffs... I really don't care if you write a whole newspaper on how you don't care about bompey. I just find it all very ironic that saints fans put so much effort into saying they don't care. A real sign you don't care would be to say nothing at all about them. Articles such as yours just give bompey fans the impression saints fans do care. A wall of stony silence would be far better. In fact a better way of showing that we're not bothered would have been a piece about all the great pompey saints derby games with barely a mention of bompey at all. Your entitled to write what you like but spending that much time saying you don't care just gives the impression you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiesaint Posted 14 March, 2011 Share Posted 14 March, 2011 I really don't care if you write a whole newspaper on how you don't care about bompey. I just find it all very ironic that saints fans put so much effort into saying they don't care. A real sign you don't care would be to say nothing at all about them. Articles such as yours just give bompey fans the impression saints fans do care. A wall of stony silence would be far better. In fact a better way of showing that we're not bothered would have been a piece about all the great pompey saints derby games with barely a mention of bompey at all. Your entitled to write what you like but spending that much time saying you don't care just gives the impression you do. So WTF would you like a newspaper article in a column which is about Saints to talk about on the weekend when we are playing Bompey but we can't talk about them?! The price of replica shirts in Tripoli maybe? Of course he's got to mention them, still doesn't mean we see them as our massive rivals. Say nothing at all, would you buy a paper with nothing in it? Thought not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daren W Posted 14 March, 2011 Share Posted 14 March, 2011 Which basically proves you are bothered I really don't care if you write a whole newspaper on how you don't care about bompey. I just find it all very ironic that saints fans put so much effort into saying they don't care. A real sign you don't care would be to say nothing at all about them. Articles such as yours just give bompey fans the impression saints fans do care. A wall of stony silence would be far better. In fact a better way of showing that we're not bothered would have been a piece about all the great pompey saints derby games with barely a mention of bompey at all. Your entitled to write what you like but spending that much time saying you don't care just gives the impression you do. So we don't need any match report in todays Echo then? Sorry but this "You spending that much time saying you don't care just gives the impression you do" crap proves you just didn't bother to read the article in the first place... Again... "the moment the two clubs are in different leagues again Bournemouth will be a distant memory to me; I’ll no more cast an eye over their results than I will Yeovil or Reading. The sad fact that most Bompey fans hate is that there is no rivalry other than the here and now, the moment that’s gone then so are Bournemouth in the minds of most Saints fans." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miltonaggro Posted 14 March, 2011 Share Posted 14 March, 2011 This week’s column comes to you courtesy of hindsight. It’s once again one of the weeks where the main topic of conversation is Saturday’s game against Bompey. Yes by the time you read this article Saints will either have leap frogged Bournemouth into second place or are still behind them with everything to play for. Either way, our “neighbours” down the road are the topic of conversation right now. Right now being the operative word, Gordon Simpson’s article in Friday’s Echo was an interesting one, apparently the rivalry between the two teams is very real and very much in the present. Well it would be, we’re in the same league and battling it out toe to toe for the automatic promotions places. But come next season, if the clubs are in different leagues, who will really give a stuff about AFC Bournemouth? I won’t. Like a lot of Saints fans, I used to have a soft spot when it came to the Cherries, that was until about ten years ago when I attended a pre-season friendly at Dean Court with my late mother. Bournemouth were in financial disarray and Saints, under Dave Jones, brought a full strength side down to Bournemouth along with a full away support to put money in their coffers and help them in their time of need. It was an eye opener, far from being grateful that not only did we bring money but also a fair amount of goodwill, Bournemouth were out and out hostile towards us. We’d arrived early and made the mistake of drifting in with the home fans not really thinking there’d be any ill feeling towards the visitors. It was monumentally naïve and within 15 minutes of the game a kindly, Saints supporting steward, had moved my mother and myself away from the home fans and in with the Saints fans. But, as I said, it was an eye opener and from that moment on my opinions on the Cherries changed irrevocably and any goodwill I had towards them quickly disappeared. Bournemouth fans have some serious chips on their shoulders but not for reasons of locality or history…. Bournemouth fans hate Southampton FC for one reason and one reason only, jealousy. That jealousy was all too apparent at those two pre-season friendlies, the very fact that they needed the money from Saints fans hurt them. Whilst most of the travelling Saints fans thought they were doing Bournemouth a favour they were in fact laying the foundations for ten years of green eyed resentment. “Ah, but you Saints fans are arrogant and have rubbed our noses in it ever since” Bournemouth fans replied. Did we? As far as I was concerned we were showing a bit of south coast solidarity only to see that solidarity thrown back in our faces. South coast rivalry? Don’t make me laugh, the moment the two clubs are in different leagues again Bournemouth will be a distant memory to me; I’ll no more cast an eye over their results than I will Yeovil or Reading. The sad fact that most Bompey fans hate is that there is no rivalry other than the here and now, the moment that’s gone then so are Bournemouth in the minds of most Saints fans. There is only one south coast rivalry and that’s between Southampton and Portsmouth, for anyone to claim that Bournemouth are in any way shape or form any kind of real rivals for us is just farcical. The comments from Bournemouth chairman Eddie Mitchell are the words of a chancer looking for a bit of cheap publicity. Take a look at the Bournemouth Echo’s own website and the words of “journalist” Neil Meldrum and you see yet another cheap attempt at stirring the hatred, if “Rather than welcome the boot being on the other foot after so many years of playing David to the Premier League’s Goliaths, an undercurrent of arrogance began to seep out of St Mary’s. The tiny club of the 90s was now far too big to welcome the likes of AFC Bournemouth and Dagenham & Redbridge to its 32,000-seater St Mary’s home” doesn’t smack of attention seeking then nothing does. If Mr Meldrum doesn’t have the acumen to see that a 32,000 seater stadium, the best youth Academy outside of the Premiership and a set up that is universally regarded as Premiership class, doesn’t belong in League One then it says more about him than it does about anyone else. Southampton aren’t a big club, that’s a fact, we’re in League One and in the big scheme of things there are clubs bigger than us up and down the country. BUT in League One, like it or not, Southampton are a big club. Owned by a Billionaire family, a UEFA standard football ground, a world class Academy, only an idiot would say that in this league we’re not a big fish. Either idiots or desperate attention seekers. Come on Saints, and let's get back to talking about proper rivals... Measured and reasonable in the circumstances, well done Daren!... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 14 March, 2011 Share Posted 14 March, 2011 (edited) So WTF would you like a newspaper article in a column which is about Saints to talk about on the weekend when we are playing Bompey but we can't talk about them?! The price of replica shirts in Tripoli maybe? Of course he's got to mention them, still doesn't mean we see them as our massive rivals. Say nothing at all, would you buy a paper with nothing in it? Thought not. Read again I didn't say he should write nothing. Edited 14 March, 2011 by doddisalegend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 14 March, 2011 Share Posted 14 March, 2011 So we don't need any match report in todays Echo then? Sorry but this "You spending that much time saying you don't care just gives the impression you do" crap proves you just didn't bother to read the article in the first place... Again... "the moment the two clubs are in different leagues again Bournemouth will be a distant memory to me; I’ll no more cast an eye over their results than I will Yeovil or Reading. The sad fact that most Bompey fans hate is that there is no rivalry other than the here and now, the moment that’s gone then so are Bournemouth in the minds of most Saints fans." I read it yesterday in the pink with my breakfast you came across as someone who does not like bompey fans or their club which is fine, what you didn't come across as is someone wasn't bothered. It's not you personally go over to 606 there is plenty of saints fans giving it the big "we don't care but were coming on your board to tell you that we don't care" going on lots of posters on here have spent plenty of time claiming they don't care. The more time we saints fans spend saying we don't care about bompey just gives the impression we do. The bit in red could just as easily apply to Pompey -saints as well to be fair all those years we were in the PL I barely gave pompey a second thought, I don't much now either HTBH next season if we're both in the championship I will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daren W Posted 14 March, 2011 Share Posted 14 March, 2011 I read it yesterday in the pink with my breakfast you came across as someone who does not like bompey fans or their club which is fine, what you didn't come across as is someone wasn't bothered. It's not you personally go over to 606 there is plenty of saints fans giving it the big "we don't care but were coming on your board to tell you that we don't care" going on lots of posters on here have spent plenty of time claiming they don't care. The more time we saints fans spend saying we don't care about bompey just gives the impression we do. The bit in red could just as easily apply to Pompey -saints as well to be fair all those years we were in the PL I barely gave pompey a second thought, I don't much now either HTBH next season if we're both in the championship I will. But as I said, it's ONLY because we're in the same league. If we're in different leagues next season will anyone give a stuff about Bompey? Not a chance... This is a one season thing and only to expected but I'll guarantee you Saints won't be singing or posting about Bompey... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 14 March, 2011 Share Posted 14 March, 2011 But as I said, it's ONLY because we're in the same league. If we're in different leagues next season will anyone give a stuff about Bompey? Not a chance... This is a one season thing and only to expected but I'll guarantee you Saints won't be singing or posting about Bompey... True but it's hard to have a football rivalry if you're not in the same league, if you're not playing football against a rival team all the posturing, songs and insults are academic. Personally I've loved seeing us beat bompey three times, best atmosphere in the league at SMS was created by bompey (maybe brighton) fans. Numbers, hatred and local = good atmosphere. I have no preoblem admitting that before this season bompey weren't on my radar from now on when ever we play (cup, league whatever) I want us to smash them, I want to put the little upstarts in their place at every oppotunity, I do care about them. I don't think I'm the only one either HTBH I just don't think others want to admitt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 14 March, 2011 Share Posted 14 March, 2011 True but it's hard to have a football rivalry if you're not in the same league, if you're not playing football against a rival team all the posturing, songs and insults are academic. Personally I've loved seeing us beat bompey three times, best atmosphere in the league at SMS was created by bompey (maybe brighton) fans. Numbers, hatred and local = good atmosphere. I have no preoblem admitting that before this season bompey weren't on my radar from now on when ever we play (cup, league whatever) I want us to smash them, I want to put the little upstarts in their place at every oppotunity, I do care about them. I don't think I'm the only one either HTBH I just don't think others want to admitt it. Lol, did you read your first sentence? So we have only been in the same laegue as poopey a few times in the past 100 or so years and therefore have no rivalry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 14 March, 2011 Share Posted 14 March, 2011 Lol, did you read your first sentence? So we have only been in the same laegue as poopey a few times in the past 100 or so years and therefore have no rivalry Yep I said it was hard not impossible. Truthfully how often did you care about pompey when we were in the PL and they weren't? I never gave them a second thought, It only came to the fore when they got back to the PL. Now we're in a lower division than them we care more but still I thought about them less this seaon than bompey. There is rivallry of course but it's pretty hollow if we don't actually play football against each other without football matches we're left trying to score points on crowd size or who won the most fA cups back in the 50s it a bit sad really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daren W Posted 14 March, 2011 Share Posted 14 March, 2011 Yep I said it was hard not impossible. Truthfully how often did you care about pompey when we were in the PL and they weren't? I never gave them a second thought, It only came to the fore when they got back to the PL. Now we're in a lower division than them we care more but still I thought about them less this seaon than bompey. There is rivallry of course but it's pretty hollow if we don't actually play football against each other without football matches we're left trying to score points on crowd size or who won the most fA cups back in the 50s it a bit sad really. Point... But with pompey it's historical... With Bompey is hysterical... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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