Barry Sanchez Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 Can we all agree that the lack of a referendum on our membership is a denial of popular opinion for one and flies in the face of a democracy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 Can we all agree that the lack of a referendum on our membership is a denial of popular opinion for one and flies in the face of a democracy? You could say the same for any major decision. Death penalty for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 Can we all agree that the lack of a referendum on our membership is a denial of popular opinion for one and flies in the face of a democracy? No we cannot. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 10 July, 2013 Author Share Posted 10 July, 2013 No we cannot. HTH Maybe yours is a lack of discussion, as opposed to the UK the Indian or Chinese Government? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 The proposed "in or out" referendum is an utterly pointless waste of time and money. Its a political gesture to appease the right, nothing more. If we're to bother with a referendum at all, I'd like it to say "should the UK rule out membership of the eurozone or the transfer of any further powers to europe for at least the next two decades", but that would be just as pointless as the next government wouldn't be bound by it. And in any case, the result would be just as much of a foregone conclusion as the "in/out" one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 10 July, 2013 Author Share Posted 10 July, 2013 The proposed "in or out" referendum is an utterly pointless waste of time and money. Its a political gesture to appease the right, nothing more. If we're to bother with a referendum at all, I'd like it to say "should the UK rule out membership of the eurozone or the transfer of any further powers to europe for at least the next two decades", but that would be just as pointless as the next government wouldn't be bound by it. And in any case, the result would be just as much of a foregone conclusion as the "in/out" one. What about an exercise for people who believe wholeheartedly in democracy so whether people believe its an exercise to appease the right or not is moot, its about popular opinion and afterall thats what the mp's were elected for, to represent the people who put them there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alain Perrin Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 No, sometimes the patient doesn't know what's good for them. I'd rather that the politicians we elect do what we pay them for. The public are too stupid to comprehend the pluses and minuses that inevitably exist in any decision. Sent from my RM-821_eu_euro1_276 using Board Express Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 Dune should stay on the Ugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 The UK is a representative democracy, which means we elect politicians who then make decisions for us. This is better than direct democracy i.e. referendums on everything because, let's be honest, the general public doesn't have much of a clue about most issues, let alone the complex pros and cons of the European Union. If people care that much they can vote for UKIP. Some will, but probably not enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 10 July, 2013 Author Share Posted 10 July, 2013 The UK is a representative democracy, which means we elect politicians who then make decisions for us. This is better than direct democracy i.e. referendums on everything because, let's be honest, the general public doesn't have much of a clue about most issues, let alone the complex pros and cons of the European Union. If people care that much they can vote for UKIP. Some will, but probably not enough. Thats not the point though is it? Why do we bother voting the elite in anyway then? Why dont they just draw straws at Oxford/Cambridge/LSE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 10 July, 2013 Author Share Posted 10 July, 2013 Dune should stay on the Ugly. I have been on your girlfriend and once was enough me lad........................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 The UK is a representative democracy, which means we elect politicians who then make decisions for us. This is better than direct democracy i.e. referendums on everything because, let's be honest, the general public doesn't have much of a clue about most issues, let alone the complex pros and cons of the European Union. If people care that much they can vote for UKIP. Some will, but probably not enough. Exactly. Why have a referendum on EU membership and not on other issues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 Thats not the point though is it? Why do we bother voting the elite in anyway then? Why dont they just draw straws at Oxford/Cambridge/LSE? It is exactly the point but as it doesn't tally with the answers your ego needs you deem it necessary to dismiss it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 10 July, 2013 Author Share Posted 10 July, 2013 Exactly. Why have a referendum on EU membership and not on other issues? Why did we have one in 1974 then? What was the point? Why are people given any say, you lovers of freedom are denying yourselves the chance to speak as you are scared of what others may say, a denial of speech and freedom in as many words. Strange the extreme left are scared of more of a say in the affairs of their Country, maybe they only want selective votes? Classy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 10 July, 2013 Author Share Posted 10 July, 2013 It is exactly the point but as it doesn't tally with the answers your ego needs you deem it necessary to dismiss it. No, no its not the point at all, its a denial of popular opinion, you simply cant accept that, you advocate a denial of democracy, nice one. The extreme left are very similar to the extreme right, they do say politics go around in a big circle with views eventually meeting...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 10 July, 2013 Author Share Posted 10 July, 2013 How do you guys feel about Egypt? Syria? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 10 July, 2013 Author Share Posted 10 July, 2013 What about the Scottish independence vote, are you against the Scots being asked for their independence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 Why did we have one in 1974 then? We had a vote in 1974, and we live with the result. Why pick on EU membership for a review referendum, why not have a new poll on votes for women ? Or how about a return to the man with the red flag walking in front of cars ? Your OP mentioned 'popular opinion', I'm not sure what the concensus is - I do know where the loudest shouting is coming from. What if the referendum was held and the vote was to stay in ? Would you want a series of recounts until you get the result you want ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 What about the Scottish independence vote, are you against the Scots being asked for their independence? I want the English to get the same opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 How do you guys feel about Egypt? Syria? Let them find their own way - trying to impose our views and form of democracy on them will only lead to greater trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 10 July, 2013 Author Share Posted 10 July, 2013 I want the English to get the same opportunity. Why? You dont believe in people getting an opportunity to vote on issues, why would you believe in this? Oh you happen to agree with it? Oh I see................................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 Why? You dont believe in people getting an opportunity to vote on issues, why would you believe in this? Oh you happen to agree with it? Oh I see................................. Spot the difference : On the issue of EU membership we have had a vote, but you don't like the result. On the issues of Balkanising the UK, ( for which there has been no previous poll ), the Welsh and Scots get a chance, but the English don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 10 July, 2013 Author Share Posted 10 July, 2013 Let them find their own way - trying to impose our views and form of democracy on them will only lead to greater trouble. No intervention then? Your form of democracy ha ha I just fell off my chair! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 10 July, 2013 Author Share Posted 10 July, 2013 Spot the difference : On the issue of EU membership we have had a vote, but you don't like the result. On the issues of Balkanising the UK, ( for which there has been no previous poll ), the Welsh and Scots get a chance, but the English don't. When did we have the vote on Europe? Balkanising? Extreme effort there if there ever was one, good job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 No intervention then? Your form of democracy ha ha I just fell off my chair! What would intervention acheive ? How is Iraq managing since we improved their prospects ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 When did we have the vote on Europe? Post #14 Why did we have one in 1974 then? Actually I think it was June 1975. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 10 July, 2013 Author Share Posted 10 July, 2013 What would intervention acheive ? How is Iraq managing since we improved their prospects ? Have I said I advocate intervention? Dont jump the gun, you will be saying I am anti European next as it fits and ticks all the boxes, I am pro democracy and you can take that to the bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 I am pro democracy... Something we agree on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 10 July, 2013 Author Share Posted 10 July, 2013 Post #14 So by that logic Australia will forever be a Constitional Monarchy as they had the vote before? I thought leftist persons were all for reason and valid change. 1974, it was rhetorical, I was not born then, hardly democratic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 10 July, 2013 Author Share Posted 10 July, 2013 Something we agree on. You appear to be a tad to the right on me of a definiton of what pro democracy actually is though so there is a rather large gap in our thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 Think people are being a bit harsh tbh. I think we should have one simply because the blue tits promised one before the last election. As others have mentioned these guys are here to represent us and our opinions. If they promise something like that and then go back on it then they should be held accountable for that. I think this is what ****es people off the most right now, all the groups are the same and when they offer something they won't actually go through with it. They will back-track using any excuse they can. I couldn't care less about the EU I just wish people in this country would start doing something when governments don't do what they say. What is going on in the middle east is shocking. But in a way we need to do something similar to remind these guys who they represent. They have zero fear of the people and going against them. They know they can bull**** on everything for five years then they will get kicked out. But in that time they get titles and remain on the gravy train until they die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brussels Saint Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 Some things lean on the national psyche enough in order to occasionally demand a referendum, even in a representative democracy. I think this is a strength of our system. An in/out decision on Europe is one of these moments. However the Great British Public are a bunch of morons and in no way are capable of objectively comprehending the technical, nuanced and complex rationale of whether we should be part of the EU. As such there is no way those in power would deliver such a choice unless they were pretty damn sure the outcome will not deliver a result counter to the benefit of the country. In this case the outcome desired being an "in" We will get a vote, Cameron gets the political capital and the country will vote to stay in. This prediction I make as a fully paid up member of the Great British Public and certainly not capable of unemotionally deciding if in or out is the best option. Now for those who will say "look at the polls" etc most Brits seem to want out. I would simply highlight that the numbers are still quite close, despite there being years of anti EU propaganda in the public domain. The "in" players have not even started yet (can you think of any influential, credible, vocal pro EU body currently making the case?) Once business, opinion makers, influencers etc get going, the propaganda machine they will be able to call upon will be immense. The message (just like the "no" camp employs) will not be nuanced but emotional and my bet is fear will play the largest part of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 No, no its not the point at all, its a denial of popular opinion, you simply cant accept that, you advocate a denial of democracy, nice one. The extreme left are very similar to the extreme right, they do say politics go around in a big circle with views eventually meeting...... Where is there a denial of democracy? The democratic process allows us to vote for a party that backs a referendum. That's how it works. If he were to have a referendum on subjects that there is overwhelming public support then the death penalty would be top of the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 10 July, 2013 Author Share Posted 10 July, 2013 Some things lean on the national psyche enough in order to occasionally demand a referendum, even in a representative democracy. I think this is a strength of our system. An in/out decision on Europe is one of these moments. However the Great British Public are a bunch of morons and in no way are capable of objectively comprehending the technical, nuanced and complex rationale of whether we should be part of the EU. As such there is no way those in power would deliver such a choice unless they were pretty damn sure the outcome will not deliver a result counter to the benefit of the country. In this case the outcome desired being an "in" We will get a vote, Cameron gets the political capital and the country will vote to stay in. This prediction I make as a fully paid up member of the Great British Public and certainly not capable of unemotionally deciding if in or out is the best option. Now for those who will say "look at the polls" etc most Brits seem to want out. I would simply highlight that the numbers are still quite close, despite there being years of anti EU propaganda in the public domain. The "in" players have not even started yet (can you think of any influential, credible, vocal pro EU body currently making the case?) Once business, opinion makers, influencers etc get going, the propaganda machine they will be able to call upon will be immense. The message (just like the "no" camp employs) will not be nuanced but emotional and my bet is fear will play the largest part of that. Whether you think the voter is dumb is moot, that argument is poor as most voters in fact care hence they are voting, you should possibly point the finger at the ones who dont vote? I want to be given opinions and options by both the parties to make up my mind but again thats a side issue, democracy and the people WANT a vote so we should have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 10 July, 2013 Author Share Posted 10 July, 2013 Where is there a denial of democracy? The democratic process allows us to vote for a party that backs a referendum. That's how it works. If he were to have a referendum on subjects that there is overwhelming public support then the death penalty would be top of the list. The will of the public want it, the tories stated they would give it as well. What has the death penalty got to do with this? If you want we can have a vote on that as well as your argument would appear to state thats a bigger denial of democracy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 Why did we have one in 1974 then? What was the point? Why are people given any say, you lovers of freedom are denying yourselves the chance to speak as you are scared of what others may say, a denial of speech and freedom in as many words. Strange the extreme left are scared of more of a say in the affairs of their Country, maybe they only want selective votes? Classy. extreme left? wtf are you on you clown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 10 July, 2013 Author Share Posted 10 July, 2013 extreme left? wtf are you on you clown? You have never heard of the extreme left? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 , democracy and the people WANT a vote..... OK, I accept that the Tories made a promise at the last election - but it carries as much weight as any other politician's promise. As for 'the people want it", other than the Tory mouthpiece press, where is the evidence that 'we the people' want it ? In my experience most people are ambivalent at best on the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 10 July, 2013 Author Share Posted 10 July, 2013 OK, I accept that the Tories made a promise at the last election - but it carries as much weight as any other politician's promise. As for 'the people want it", other than the Tory mouthpiece press, where is the evidence that 'we the people' want it ? In my experience most people are ambivalent at best on the issue. Badger, leave it, you understand there are prominent left politicians who want the vote, Dennis Skinner for one. So not only do you ignore the evidence, you wont hold a politician to account as you agree with their stance? You are coming across worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brussels Saint Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 Whether you think the voter is dumb is moot, that argument is poor as most voters in fact care hence they are voting, you should possibly point the finger at the ones who dont vote? I want to be given opinions and options by both the parties to make up my mind but again thats a side issue, democracy and the people WANT a vote so we should have it. I think we are agreeing actually. The people do want a vote, do care and I genuinely think we will get one. I guess my point was that we will only get it because those on all political sides (bar UKIP) believe the vote is a forgone conclusion and will deliver an "in" My point on the public being dumb, is perhaps a little unfair, but I also believe that some decisions are so complex that they cannot be distilled into a simple choice that the general populace can comprehend. I'm fairly anti EU by nature, but having lived in Brussels for 13 years and tried tirelessly to understand the pro's and cons, the complexity of what being in or out the EU means is honestly still out of reach. As such I would not feel able to make a choice, sure I was doing the right thing. I am that dumb voter. The public demands a vote, but is not capable of making it. They will only get it however, if those capable of understanding the ramifications are confident of the result. I think we are at that juncture now, so will get a vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 10 July, 2013 Author Share Posted 10 July, 2013 I think we are agreeing actually. The people do want a vote, do care and I genuinely think we will get one. I guess my point was that we will only get it because those on all political sides (bar UKIP) believe the vote is a forgone conclusion and will deliver an "in" My point on the public being dumb, is perhaps a little unfair, but I also believe that some decisions are so complex that they cannot be distilled into a simple choice that the general populace can comprehend. I'm fairly anti EU by nature, but having lived in Brussels for 13 years and tried tirelessly to understand the pro's and cons, the complexity of what being in or out the EU means is honestly still out of reach. As such I would not feel able to make a choice, sure I was doing the right thing. I am that dumb voter. The public demands a vote, but is not capable of making it. They will only get it however, if those capable of understanding the ramifications are confident of the result. I think we are at that juncture now, so will get a vote. The issue of whether people are clever enough to understand what they are voting for has nothing to do with me and I wouldn't like intelligence tests at polling booths, the pro European camp are very very happy to not give us the vote for obvious reasons and neither do the political parties, this is whats wrong, they dont have the stomach for it and politicians lives are short. What about whats right about letting the Countries people have their say? And what funniest and the most ironic of this is it the left in the main denying the democracy, I say this as a member of the Labour Party for 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 The establishment do not want a referendum on EU membership. Promising a referendum on issues is a way of parties neutralising issues that will cost them votes or power. The clearest example of this is the promise of a vote before joining the euro. Labour wouldn't risk alienating millions of voters by bypassing them. They made it possible to vote labour and keep the pound. Forget about browns "tests" they could be fudged, the only test that mattered was "can we win a pro euro vote". As it was a really sucsessful tactic others are now following suit. If you are put off by the lib/dems blatant European nuttiness, well they've promised a referendum so you can still vote for them safe in the knowledge you have a veto. Why vote Ukip, when you'll get a referendum under the Tory party. Labour will follow suit, because public opinion wants a vote. None of the establishment have the balls to argue the pro EU stance that they beleive in, so they hide behind referendum promises. Does this mean we'll get a vote? Does it hell. They are so worried we will destroy the project that they'll lie, delay and confuse until public opinion swings back ( they hope) to a pro EU mood. If the established parties went to the voters with their real thoughts on the EU, the Tory party will split , the lib/dems will be back to 1970's levels,labour will lose votes in its heartlands and the anti EU ukip/tory right will win 50 - 100 seats. So they promise the public a say to avoid this. Had mrs Thatcher given away areas of our sovereignty to the Americans back in the 80's you can bet your bottom dollar the people saying referendums have no part in our system would be calling for one. And as for the line "we've had one " that's laughable. The EU is a million miles away from the EEC. The other anti referendum view appears to be that only clever enlightened people are pro EU. The idiots and plebs, the sun and mail readers, they can't have a vote. The subject is just too complicated for their tiny little brains ( despite having first class teachers giving them a first class education ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 OK, I accept that the Tories made a promise at the last election - but it carries as much weight as any other politician's promise. As for 'the people want it", other than the Tory mouthpiece press, where is the evidence that 'we the people' want it ? In my experience most people are ambivalent at best on the issue. What a load of nonsense. The lib/dems went into the election pledging an in/out referendum, the conservatives just promised one on the Lisbon treaty ( if not ratified). I also think those well known Tory activists Tony Benn and Denis Healy are calling for a vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 i don,t think people have a clue of what to vote for since we had 32 years of propaganda from the anti eu papers on nearly every paper available bar the small circulations of the guardian and maybe independent which trys to they balance the counter arguments ,so i can understand the major party's wanting to put Britons interests first . the rabid anti eu wing of the tory party of bill cash and his ilk really believe in wha t they say would have more respect if he and his like minded travellers joined ukip rather than trying to destroy the tory party just like militant tendency tried to destroy labour in the 1970s wanting out of eu . then people would have a clear choice of voteing ukip against the other party's if they wanted us really out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 So Bill Cash should leave the Tory party? What about Tony Benn, does he need to leave the labour party, a party who he had dedicated his life to. Or does this " respect " of yours only apply to anti EU right wingers and not lefties? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 10 July, 2013 Share Posted 10 July, 2013 So Bill Cash should leave the Tory party? What about Tony Benn, does he need to leave the labour party, a party who he had dedicated his life to. Or does this " respect " of yours only apply to anti EU right wingers and not lefties? Tony Benn has retired and yes any anti European in the Labour party should defect to Ukip if they believed they want out.Ukip is the only party who are being honest. Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 11 July, 2013 Share Posted 11 July, 2013 Tony Benn has retired and yes any anti European in the Labour party should defect to Ukip if they believed they want out.Ukip is the only party who are being honest. Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2 What a load of pony. Don't forget it was only 4 prime ministers ago that withdrawal from Europe was offical labour policy, good job they didn't follow your doctrine and chuck out all the pro Europeans. The arguement that Tony Benn should join Ukip is laughable and clueless. Have you just got in from the pub? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 11 July, 2013 Share Posted 11 July, 2013 What a load of pony. Don't forget it was only 4 prime ministers ago that withdrawal from Europe was offical labour policy, good job they didn't follow your doctrine and chuck out all the pro Europeans. The arguement that Tony Benn should join Ukip is laughable and clueless. Have you just got in from the pub? Well yes that was when Labour had militant tendency running the party.single minded zealots abit like Bill cash and his ilk.I never suggested Tony Ben leave labour that is your words.Tony Benn did not want us to join the Eu but he also talked about other things unlike cash and the militants like him. Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 11 July, 2013 Author Share Posted 11 July, 2013 Tony Benn has retired and yes any anti European in the Labour party should defect to Ukip if they believed they want out.Ukip is the only party who are being honest. Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2 What about the Unions, some of whom are anti Europe as it stands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 11 July, 2013 Share Posted 11 July, 2013 (edited) Tony Benn has retired and yes any anti European in the Labour party should defect to Ukip if they believed they want out.Ukip is the only party who are being honest. Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2 Parties are broad churches. There's never going to be full agreement on every issue, especially when you go intergenerational. However, one thing is sure. Tony Benn and co could not be further from UKIP's policies. Being anti-EU is fine, even if I vehemently disagree with that position, but many of their other policies would set this country back a long way. Read their manifesto and tell me that is really what you want?! The end of the progressive tax system, then end of state education as we know it and a ridiculous expansion of our military to name but three. Edited 11 July, 2013 by Saintandy666 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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