Academy Reputation

[TheSaint75]

With our now reliance on the academy being our 1st team, do you think in the long term our reputation will diminish for producing quality home grown talent?

 

I wonder how many players will really make it to premier/championship standards?

 

How many will have confidence and form lost and never return?

 

How many would benefit from playing in a team with more experience to guide them through WHEN they are ready for the 1st team?

 

Will the above make us less attractive to potential talent in the long term if we carry on as we are?

[Window Cleaner]

With our now reliance on the academy being our 1st team, do you think in the long term our reputation will diminish for producing quality home grown talent?

 

I wonder how many players will really make it to premier/championship standards?

 

How many will have confidence and form lost and never return?

 

How many would benefit from playing in a team with more experience to guide them through WHEN they are ready for the 1st team?

 

 

e above make us less attractive to potential talent in the long term if we carry on as we are?

 

 

We should worry far more about the decent players we've let wander off for nowt to be replace by expensive crap. McDonald,Howard,Blackstock,Gary Monk.

[Saint_clark]

We should worry far more about the decent players we've let wander off for nowt to be replace by expensive crap. McDonald,Howard,Blackstock,Gary Monk.

 

Blackstock and McDonald both wanted to leave. We didn't "let" them wander off.

[Berkshire Saint]

Well not really, we released McDonald and sold Blackstock as we had signed class acts such as Wright-Phillips...

[Saint_clark]

Well not really, we released McDonald and sold Blackstock as we had signed class acts such as Wright-Phillips...

 

Well Strachan obviously rated McDonald because he is having a love-in with him at Celtic, and Blackstock said himself that he requested a transfer to be guaranteed first team football. Burley said he didn't want him to leave but wouldn't stand in the way of the player.

[saint1977]

Depends on how far we can maintain the level of investment needed for the academy infrastructure we have created. The overhead is currently a real burden for the club but we need to be able to bring more Theos and Bale's through. If we let the academy rot - and this is a real danger - we drop down to a Centre of Excellence where we'd be competing with Aldershot, Bournemouth and Bristol Rovers for players. Scary for a club with our wonderful history of bring TOP young players through.

[TheSaint75]

Depends on how far we can maintain the level of investment needed for the academy infrastructure we have created. The overhead is currently a real burden for the club but we need to be able to bring more Theos and Bale's through. If we let the academy rot - and this is a real danger - we drop down to a Centre of Excellence where we'd be competing with Aldershot, Bournemouth and Bristol Rovers for players. Scary for a club with our wonderful history of bring TOP young players through.

 

Which is what I am worried about, how can we maintain investment when we can barely pay the 1st team?

George Prost has gone and he seemed to be the main man developing these youngsters.

What happens when the players deemed good enough dries up, what sort of standard will our 1st team be then?

 

We seem to be relying on being able to sell these players to maintain income, if that goes due to not being able to sell them due to nobody wanting them as they do not appear good enough to play at this level?

 

Time will tell but still worrying!

[Saint_clark]

Plenty of teams survive in this league without bringing through a couple of really good youngsters every season.

[TheSaint75]

Plenty of teams survive in this league without bringing through a couple of really good youngsters every season.

 

Yes, but do they rely so heavily on those youngsters?

[Saint_clark]

Yes, but do they rely so heavily on those youngsters?

 

No, i'm just saying that if our academy did go to pot then it would not be the end of the world. We would just have to adapt.

[Give it to Ron]

No, i'm just saying that if our academy did go to pot then it would not be the end of the world. We would just have to adapt.

 

How? when most of the first team is based on academy players?

Where do we get the money to pay agent/loans fees even freebies come at a price.

[Saint_clark]

Blackstock was sold, very cheap because Burley wanted BWP instead and rated him far higher. That's Burley for you.

 

Many of the others left because we were in a far better position and they weren't good enough for us at the time. Just because they're good enough for us now doesn't help. Take Monk, he's improved greatly and we're plummeted as a club. Doesn't mean it wasn't right to let him go as we were a premiership club and he was appalling.

 

Blackstock was sold for £250k, the same as BWP, but with a massive sell on fee.

Burley did NOT want to sell him, this has been stated by him, Blackstock, Lundekvam and Leon Crouch.

[Saint_clark]

How? when most of the first team is based on academy players?

Where do we get the money to pay agent/loans fees even freebies come at a price.

 

Obviously it will be hard, but we will have to adapt. Otherwise we will just be rolling over and letting our club disappear.

[Give it to Ron]

Depends on how far we can maintain the level of investment needed for the academy infrastructure we have created. The overhead is currently a real burden for the club but we need to be able to bring more Theos and Bale's through. If we let the academy rot - and this is a real danger - we drop down to a Centre of Excellence where we'd be competing with Aldershot, Bournemouth and Bristol Rovers for players. Scary for a club with our wonderful history of bring TOP young players through.

 

We are already falling behind in recruiting good players - I know of a few that have now chosen the other end of the M27 because they are really vamping up theirs.

In fact one of their academy guys is managing a team in the Tyro I believe and getting players via there as well.

[Saint Billy]

Our academy is on the decline because we have not got a decent enough first team to bring these kids into which is extremely harmful and destructive to those kids who have real talent, just look at Lallana now compared to how he was.

 

This is where Lowes plan becomes unhinged.

[Saint_clark]

Let's not get mixed up here, our academy is in decline because we got relegated.

[sambosa75]

We are already falling behind in recruiting good players - I know of a few that have now chosen the other end of the M27 because they are really vamping up theirs.

In fact one of their academy guys is managing a team in the Tyro I believe and getting players via there as well.

 

You are very wrong there my friend. Southampton are as aggressive as they have ever been in recruiting the very best young talent. I would strongly suggest the players who are moving to Portsmouth are moving there as a result of not being pursued as strongly as the very best available.

 

My case in point is my nephew, Ben. Up until a couple of months ago, he was being courted by Chelsea, Fulham, Portsmouth, Reading, Bournemouth and Saints. Chelsea in particular were very keen. Ben's football team Pace Youth (incidentally probably the Tyro team you are referring to as the coaches father is head scout for Pompey) played Chelsea at Cobham and on the evidence of Ben's performance was asked to return the next day to playe for Chelsea against Bristol Rovers. Ben played the full 80 minutes, scored and generally played well. Chelsea were apparently willing to bypass his trial period and sign him up on a 1 year contract, volunteering to arrange a driver to pick him up from his Boyatt Wood home every week and drive him to the Cobham training ground. My brother-in-law had his doubts about Chelsea however and expressed them to the club. All Chelsea could point at as their academy "success story" was John Terry. Not necessarily a bad example but not as productive as other academies.

 

Southampton on the other hand were very aggressive. They could point to a string of successes that they have either produced or nurtured. Wayne Bridge, Chris Baird, Martin Cranie, Gareth Bale, Theo Walcott; all now Premier League players who have gone on to represent their respective countries, with the exception of Cranie who is stuck at under-21's. Still, not a bad level. Thats not even mentioning the fact that with one or two exceptions, our whole match day squad at the moment is comprised of products of the academy.

 

No matter how bad the state of the club is in at the moment, the infrastructure of the academy will always be there. Obvoiusly we miss figures such as Georges Prost but the personel is sstill very good.

 

Another good example is our under 14 side. I have it on good authority they are 2nd only to Arsenal in terms of talent and results.

[LeBenali]

Another good example is our under 14 side. I have it on good authority they are 2nd only to Arsenal in terms of talent and results.

 

Speaking to a mates lad who plays in the Under 13's, apparantly the under 14's are the best youth team we have at the moment, and have gone undefeated for something like two years!!

 

Unrelated but interestingly, also got told all levels of youth football down to the under 10's are playing our stupid 4-5-1/4-3-3 football. Looks like the intention is that the formation is here to stay.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

Depends on how far we can maintain the level of investment needed for the academy infrastructure we have created. The overhead is currently a real burden for the club but we need to be able to bring more Theos and Bale's through. If we let the academy rot - and this is a real danger - we drop down to a Centre of Excellence where we'd be competing with Aldershot, Bournemouth and Bristol Rovers for players. Scary for a club with our wonderful history of bring TOP young players through.

 

So what advantages does being an Academy bring over and above being a Centre of Excellence? And why would we be frightened of having to compete with Aldershot etc?

[david in sweden]

With our now reliance on the academy being our 1st team, do you think in the long term our reputation will diminish for producing quality home grown talent?

 

I wonder how many players will really make it to premier/championship standards?

 

An excellent question, but it's really too soon to make such a judgment.

Many contributors here weren't born in the 1950's ...and maybe their parents weren't either....but the great Man U team of that era was the " Busby Babes"

a soccer academy of its day and winners of the FA Youth Cup 6-7 years in a row with only the young Saints side of the time (Paine, Sydenham etc) were in the same class. Nearer our time the Man.U side of the 1990's was dominated by a youth team;the Nevilles, Giggs, Scholes, Butt and ..Beckham.

Sure Man. U can go out and spend £20-30 MILLION on one player now, but their recent success was built on that youth side and to some extent is still.

 

In my Dell days, "new " young players were usually "blooded " when they reached 20 or 21....in recent years the likes of Walcott, Bale and Surman have made that generation look like pensioners before they start.

Dave Merrington (then youth coachin the 1980's) put a great team together with Shearer, Maddison, MLT and the Wallace brothers but sadly the concept of youth players faded until we saw the emergence of the "new" academy.

 

I should be careful here that I don't seem to do anything "PC" and appear to give Rupert Lowe credit for " something", but the truth is the persistance of the Academy project has been the saviour of the club in the last few years with sales of the Walcott, Bale, Baird (who came as a 16 year old ) and even Kenwyne Jones (who was young and a rough diamond when he arrived.)

 

Having mentioned the Merrington team of the mid 1980's ...NONE of them came in and made an immediate hit at 1st team level. MLT sub. for quite some time before he got his spot. Shearer was in the reserves for another 18 months after his Dell hat-trick v. Arsenal before HE was a regular.

Sadly, we don't have a stable first team with experienced players at present, but some of this crop will surely be very good prospects next season lets hope we are able to survive to see it bear fruit.

 

Our real problem is the lack of a few experienced players who can help guide the team ON the pitch. Full marks to JP for trying out all these lads, but the inconsistancy is not surprising when you consider most of them would have been glad of a place on the Reserves Bench - only 6 months ago.

 

I only hope that we do get some consistant results and show the rest of the League that you can run a team of home-growns, and not rely of foreign imports as many teams do.

[Saint Billy]

You are very wrong there my friend. Southampton are as aggressive as they have ever been in recruiting the very best young talent. I would strongly suggest the players who are moving to Portsmouth are moving there as a result of not being pursued as strongly as the very best available.

 

My case in point is my nephew, Ben. Up until a couple of months ago, he was being courted by Chelsea, Fulham, Portsmouth, Reading, Bournemouth and Saints. Chelsea in particular were very keen. Ben's football team Pace Youth (incidentally probably the Tyro team you are referring to as the coaches father is head scout for Pompey) played Chelsea at Cobham and on the evidence of Ben's performance was asked to return the next day to playe for Chelsea against Bristol Rovers. Ben played the full 80 minutes, scored and generally played well. Chelsea were apparently willing to bypass his trial period and sign him up on a 1 year contract, volunteering to arrange a driver to pick him up from his Boyatt Wood home every week and drive him to the Cobham training ground. My brother-in-law had his doubts about Chelsea however and expressed them to the club. All Chelsea could point at as their academy "success story" was John Terry. Not necessarily a bad example but not as productive as other academies.

 

Southampton on the other hand were very aggressive. They could point to a string of successes that they have either produced or nurtured. Wayne Bridge, Chris Baird, Martin Cranie, Gareth Bale, Theo Walcott; all now Premier League players who have gone on to represent their respective countries, with the exception of Cranie who is stuck at under-21's. Still, not a bad level. Thats not even mentioning the fact that with one or two exceptions, our whole match day squad at the moment is comprised of products of the academy.

 

No matter how bad the state of the club is in at the moment, the infrastructure of the academy will always be there. Obvoiusly we miss figures such as Georges Prost but the personel is sstill very good.

 

Another good example is our under 14 side. I have it on good authority they are 2nd only to Arsenal in terms of talent and results.

 

Are or were, what is it?

[SaintRobbie]

If you were a kid and could join Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool, Aston Villa, West Ham or Spurs (etc) academy or Saints, right now, who would you join? I think the answer to the question lies with that question.

[saint1977]

So what advantages does being an Academy bring over and above being a Centre of Excellence? And why would we be frightened of having to compete with Aldershot etc?

 

The Theos and Bales of this world, and their parents, want to go to Academies as the facilities and coaching levels per kid have to be far better. You can't really attract them and even if you do as a very young player hold onto them as Swindon found out with Theo.

[saint1977]

Let's not get mixed up here, our academy is in decline because we got relegated.

 

Fair point although the SCW investment in 2005/6 was very harmful. If we'd stayed up in 2004/5 fair enough and SCW's ideas were good in themselves, it's just that we should have been focusing on a promotion push in the first parachute season, the plans should have been put on ice. Instead we created an additional overhead that wasn't needed post-relegation unless we went straight back up.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

The Theos and Bales of this world, and their parents, want to go to Academies as the facilities and coaching levels per kid have to be far better. You can't really attract them and even if you do as a very young player hold onto them as Swindon found out with Theo.

 

Do you think that it currently being called an Academy is still enough to attract them?

Won't it become more to do with the reputation of the club as a whole, not just what the youth set-up is called? If we carry on as we are it won't matter what you call it, IMO.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

Nearer our time the Man.U side of the 1990's was dominated by a youth team;the Nevilles, Giggs, Scholes, Butt and ..Beckham.

Sure Man. U can go out and spend £20-30 MILLION on one player now, but their recent success was built on that youth side and to some extent is still.

 

That Man Utd side you mention contained the likes of Irwin, Bruce, Ince, Hughes, McClair, Schiemchel, Parker, Pallister, Keane, Blackstock, Cantona so was not dominated by youngsters. Even Beckham went on loan to Preston prior to making his breakthrough. The difference with Saints is we are expecting 8 or 9 youngsters to be good enough and successful which is something that has never really happened in the history of football.

[TheSaint75]

 

That Man Utd side you mention contained the likes of Irwin, Bruce, Ince, Hughes, McClair, Schiemchel, Parker, Pallister, Keane, Blackstock, Cantona so was not dominated by youngsters. Even Beckham went on loan to Preston prior to making his breakthrough. The difference with Saints is we are expecting 8 or 9 youngsters to be good enough and successful which is something that has never really happened in the history of football.

 

I didn't actually say that, I think you mis-quoted somehow....but I agree with your response

[sambosa75]

Are or were, what is it?

 

I'm not sure whether you are having a go at my grammar, simply didnt read my post or are a total and utter dullard who is attempting to look intelligent at the expense of my post.

 

I stated Southampton (Dave Puckett in particular) are aggressive in their approach towards recruiting the very best talent available to them. I then went on to state that my case in point to Southampton's aggression was how they acted when bringing Ben in to the academy despite advances from more "prestigious" or rich clubs.

 

I dont see your issue with what I said.

[sambosa75]

If you were a kid and could join Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool, Aston Villa, West Ham or Spurs (etc) academy or Saints, right now, who would you join? I think the answer to the question lies with that question.

 

Firstly it depends on the kid. If you care about your child and the development of them as a person, I think the fact Southampton is generally regarded as a family club is attractive.

 

I would say it also depends on the kids loyalties. Pulling on a Saints shirt for my nephew means something and you can visually see the pride he has playing in his Saints shirt wearing the number 7 shirt.

 

Yes, there is more prestige in playing for a Chelsea, Man Utd, Aston Villa, Liverpool, Spurs, etc... but doesnt guarantee you'll be a better player and it certainly doesnt improve your prospects of making it as a professional football player.

[TheSaint75]

Firstly it depends on the kid. If you care about your child and the development of them as a person, I think the fact Southampton is generally regarded as a family club is attractive.

 

I would say it also depends on the kids loyalties. Pulling on a Saints shirt for my nephew means something and you can visually see the pride he has playing in his Saints shirt wearing the number 7 shirt.

 

Yes, there is more prestige in playing for a Chelsea, Man Utd, Aston Villa, Liverpool, Spurs, etc... but doesnt guarantee you'll be a better player and it certainly doesnt improve your prospects of making it as a professional football player.

 

I know where your coming from but....

 

Are or will we still be regarded as a family club?

 

How many kids grow up supporting a league 1/2 side, it will certainly be a lot less than premier or championship?

 

Will Saints hinder progression through being used too early and shattering confidence through repeated failure?

[Give it to Ron]

Sambosa

I know someone who played in that game and his dad was very impressed with Ben so did he sign for Saints?

I watch quite a few Tyro games as my lad was playing in it this year and I never saw any Saints scouts but a few from Chelsea, Bournemouth and Portsmouth.

I just hope we continue to invest in the academy as without it would of been sunk ages ago and now we wouldn't have a 1st team squad.

 

Edit

 

I saw your follow up post and saw he is now in the academy

[sambosa757]

Sambosa

I know someone who played in that game and his dad was very impressed with Ben so did he sign for Saints?

I watch quite a few Tyro games as my lad was playing in it this year and I never saw any Saints scouts but a few from Chelsea, Bournemouth and Portsmouth.

I just hope we continue to invest in the academy as without it would of been sunk ages ago and now we wouldn't have a 1st team squad.

 

Edit

 

I saw your follow up post and saw he is now in the academy

 

He did indeed. He's absolutely loving it. All the other boys are very friendly and made Ben feel part of the set-up from the get-go. He's been setting goals up left, right and centre since he signed but got his first goal a couple of weeks back away to Pompey with a booming header in a 4-1 win!

 

Its early days but I honestly havent seen a kid of his age as talented as he is. If his development continues into his late-teens we are going to have a very special player on our hands. Incidentally, the 'keeper in Ben's team is absolutely brilliant too.

[sambosa757]

I know where your coming from but....

 

Are or will we still be regarded as a family club?

 

How many kids grow up supporting a league 1/2 side, it will certainly be a lot less than premier or championship?

 

Will Saints hinder progression through being used too early and shattering confidence through repeated failure?

 

We are most definately regarded as a family club. I cant see any reason why that would chance. The club has always put an emphasis on close relationships between parents of their academy prospects and themselves.

 

Kids will grow up supporting their home-team club, as long as they go and watch them play. It's easy for a kid to support Man Utd if they are given the opportunity to watch Saints. Realistically, a kid is very unlikely to get to Old Trafford to watch a game, whereas St Mary's is very accessible. Another nice little feature Saints provide their prospects with is a free season ticket to them and one parent, which means that more often than not, the kids are watching the team play. I can guarantee you Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool, Spurs etc... dont do this.

 

It will work either way. If a kid is good enough, they are old enough. The longer we follow the route we are going with now, the less likely our first team will be full of brand new recruits from the academy. This will then allow us to be more selective with the players who we bring through from the academy.

[saint1977]

Do you think that it currently being called an Academy is still enough to attract them?

Won't it become more to do with the reputation of the club as a whole, not just what the youth set-up is called? If we carry on as we are it won't matter what you call it, IMO.

 

You may well be right, I can only go on the opinions of those I know in the game who have been involved in that side of it for many years. I was always led to believe that the facilities were an attraction for parents but then Bristol Rovers seem to have a team built from their partnership with Filton College. I suppose it depends what calibre of youngster we want but then good players still develop in the lower divisions.

[fromdayone]

So what advantages does being an Academy bring over and above being a Centre of Excellence? And why would we be frightened of having to compete with Aldershot etc?

 

The major advantage is that Academy teams get to play against other Academy teams ie Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs etc. Therefore playing against the best in their respective age groups creates stronger players than playing against center of excellence sides that only compete against other center of excellence sides such as Swindon, Bournemouth etc.

 

Bit long winded... but you get the idea!