Jimmy Jay Morgan not to sign a pro contract at club!

[Lighthouse]

12 minutes ago, Alanh said:

sort of moves that Dibling and Livramento got but at the moment he's discovering whether he can match their success while earning (allegedly) £20K a week.  That's not a bad position to work from.

I don't see anyone coming in and offering £40m and a massive wage increase to someone who's just had a decent loan in League 1. If people are going to keep pointing to JJM's wages as a reason he made a good decision, Dibling is the same age and probably earning treble that.

[egg]

12 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I don't see anyone coming in and offering £40m and a massive wage increase to someone who's just had a decent loan in League 1. If people are going to keep pointing to JJM's wages as a reason he made a good decision, Dibling is the same age and probably earning treble that.

Continually mentioning Dibling misses the point. Dibling is Dibling. JJ isn't. 

Chelsea have invested in JJ. They're managing his career via loans. They'll want a return on him. They'll get one if he keeps developing. 

Please explain how you feel JJ's career would have developed better staying here. To me, it seems like he's getting better career development, and more dollar. Sure, he may have sat on our bench a bit, and played a bit in some cup games, but he'll develop more going through the gears in the loan system imo. 

[Willo of Whiteley]

He wanted a big pay day as a 17 year old. In no way, shape or form did he ever deserve such a lucrative contract for scoring a few goals at youth level.

Good riddance.

He will end up as a Ryan Seager, Jake Hesketh kind of player floating around Leagues One and Two.

He didn’t do enough to justify his value then and he certainly hasn’t recently.

Saints were great to tell him to shove it. His youth wage at Chelsea could be the most lucrative contract he gets in his career now.

He certainly wasn’t going for his development, he went purely for a pay day.

[sockeye]

On 24/01/2023 at 13:12, redkeith said:

Just we you thought you couldn't feel any worse about Saints. 

 

If only we knew 

[Turkish]

5 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

WTF, Have you literally just forgotten that Tyler Dibling exists? Even Livramento would be a reasonable comparison, for a player who left Chelsea's youth system for first team football and is now 22 and playing Champions League football and in the England team.

We've developed our young players as well as we can. The problem, as has always been the case, is that the vast majority of them aren't, and will never be, PL standard. Those who are good enough will play for our first team, as has been shown by Robinson and Dibling.

Liveramento is an incredibly bad comparison for your arguement, Developed by Chelsea, probably on a very good contract for his age there, sold to us for a 5m fee and large sell on clause, sold to Newcastle and now playing champions league football at one of the worlds richest clubs. So being in Chelseas academy does work. Liveramento is the poster boy for how it can do so well for player and Chelsea.

The idea that he was better off staying with us is just cheerleading nonsense. For every Tyler DIbling there are 10 Jake Heskeths. If you turn down a 4 year contract on 20k a week because a few fans think you're much better off at Southampton then is just garbage im afraid. He's set up for life, even if he doesn't make it at Chelsea another club up the pyramid will take a gamble on him, because he's at Chelsea. Provided he doesn't get injured or become a crack head i'll wager he'll get at least one more decent contract somewhere even if he doesn't cut it at Chelsea. 

[egg]

5 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

How is it daft, they're about as close and obvious a comparison as it's possible to make? They were born barely a month apart, poached by Chelsea within six months of each other. One has just made a £40m move to Everton, whilst the other is on loan in League 1, again.

None of those other players have the talent that Dibling and JJM apparently do. They might have done well for our youth team but nobody like Chelsea ever rated them enough to come in and nick them.

I'm going to flip that last question round and ask who it is you feel we've managed badly? Generally speaking, the players who've come through our academy have ended up at a level which suits them, we've not ruined their careers. Dibling was good enough for our first team, we never sent him on loan, so I don't understand the relevance anyway.

Because they're different players. 

You've ducked my question. It's you that says JJ should have stayed. That must mean you feel we'll have managed his career. Please answer my question. 

The last point. Sims, Hesketh and the young left back who's name escapes me haven't. We've not done well at all by them. Regardless, for your point to have any validity, there'd have to be a case that JJ won't end up at his level following the Chelsea move. I'm not sure what you base that on. He'll find his level, and bank a few mil on the way. 

[Lighthouse]

49 minutes ago, egg said:

Because they're different players. 

You've ducked my question. It's you that says JJ should have stayed. That must mean you feel we'll have managed his career. Please answer my question. 

The last point. Sims, Hesketh and the young left back whose name escapes me haven't. We've not done well at all by them. Regardless, for your point to have any validity, there'd have to be a case that JJ won't end up at his level following the Chelsea move. I'm not sure what you base that on. He'll find his level, and bank a few mil on the way. 

Yes, he’d have played first team football here, same as Dibling because they were both very highly rated academy players, that’s the whole point of that comparison.

I’ve no idea why people think a young player is better off going to Chelsea than Saints, just so they can be loaned out to a club below us in the league system.

Sims, Hesketh, Vokins et.al. Didn’t make it here because they weren’t good enough, not because we badly managed them. They had plenty of opportunities to play first team football all, that they’d never have had at a place like Chelsea. They just didn’t do enough and ended up finding their levels at other clubs, usually in L1/L2.

Chelsea signed him because it suits their business model and PSR rules. Hoover up all the best talent they can find, wi5 no intention of ever playing 90% of them and steadily sell them off to lower league clubs for modest profits.

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Liveramento is an incredibly bad comparison for your arguement, Developed by Chelsea, probably on a very good contract for his age there, sold to us for a 5m fee and large sell on clause, sold to Newcastle and now playing champions league football at one of the worlds richest clubs. So being in Chelseas academy does work. Liveramento is the poster boy for how it can do so well for player and Chelsea.

In other words he had to leave Chelsea to play first team football and get his big break.

[AlexLaw76]

He could have stayed and experienced the French SR club, or a season at Eastleigh, whilst on a fraction of his current salary

 

[benjii]

20 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

Yes you can, it was a silly, short term decision that’s completely derailed his career. Despite clearly being very highly rated, he will most likely earn far less in his career than the likes of JWP, Targett and Dibling.

Even Jack Stephens!

[benjii]

Also, at the risk of sounding like a dick.... does 20k a week for 4 years at the age of 18 really set you up for life when you've only got a 15 year career and you might have a 75% pay cut on the horizon?

That's something like £563k per year net.

Then you've got some agents fees coming out of that. 

Before anyone says: it'll all be squirrelled offshore and images rights and stuff.... no, it won't. Not for a lad like him. It'll be 99% through PAYE.

So 2,000,000 net after 4 years. 

He can certainly buy a nice enough gaff (although not really near Chelsea FC and maybe not near their training ground). But can he afford the mortgage on it once he's earning 5k a week at Gillingham?

So, yeah, it can sort of set him up, but he wont be "rich" for life unless he gets another PL contract.

Edited 19 hours ago by benjii

[egg]

1 minute ago, benjii said:

Also, at the risk of sounding like a dick.... does 20k a week for 4 years at the age of 18 really set you up for life when you've only got a 15 year career and you might have a 75% pay cut on the horizon?

That's something like £563k per year net.

Then you've got some agents fees coming out of that. 

Before anyone says: it'll all be squirrelled offshore and images rights and stuff.... no, it won't. Not for a lad like him. It'll be 99% through PAYE.

So 2,000,000 net after 4 years. 

He can certainly buy a nice enough gaff (although not really near Chelsea FC and maybe not near their training ground). But can he afford the mortgage on it once he's earning 5k a week at Gillingham?

So, yeah, it can sort of set him up, but he wont be "rich" for life unless he gets another PL contract.

He wouldn't have got that £2m net if he'd stayed here. Lighthouse thinks he'd have done a Dibling if he'd stayed, whereas he could have done a Ballard and still ended up earning £5k pw somewhere if that turns out to be his level. That £2m gives him a decent headstart in life. 

[egg]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

In other words he had to leave Chelsea to play first team football and get his big break.

You're not making much sense here. He's ended up at Newcastle, playing CL football, and for his country, after coming through the Chelsea system. The development he got there gave him that opportunity. JJ won't have gone to Chelsea expecting to be playing CL football for them in a few years. 

[Turkish]

5 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

In other words he had to leave Chelsea to play first team football and get his big break.

So what? 
 

@egghas more or less said what I would so I won’t repeat it but your point on this is weird. 

[The Kraken]

Not sure how anybody can be so unequivocal about the fact that JJM has made an awful decision and stunted his development. But lighthouse is gonna lighthouse I suppose.

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, The Kraken said:

Not sure how anybody can be so unequivocal about the fact that JJM has made an awful decision and stunted his development. But lighthouse is gonna lighthouse I suppose.

Dibling and Livramento came here from Chelsea to play first team football and are now earning treble what JJM gets playing on loan in league 1. Youth players are better off here than being another one of Chelsea’s PSR assets who they have no intention of ever playing.

If you’re struggling with that concept, I can’t explain it any clearer I’m afraid.

[The Kraken]

6 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Dibling and Livramento came here from Chelsea to play first team football and are now earning treble what JJM gets playing on loan in league 1. Youth players are better off here than being another one of Chelsea’s PSR assets who they have no intention of ever playing.

If you’re struggling with that concept, I can’t explain it any clearer I’m afraid.

Yes. It really is that simple. Well done for explaining it as far as your limit though. Bravo.

[East Kent Saint]

8 hours ago, The Kraken said:

Not sure how anybody can be so unequivocal about the fact that JJM has made an awful decision and stunted his development. But lighthouse is gonna lighthouse I suppose.

Perhaps JJM is happy with his position ?

Edited 7 hours ago by East Kent Saint

[Turkish]

7 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

Dibling and Livramento came here from Chelsea to play first team football and are now earning treble what JJM gets playing on loan in league 1. Youth players are better off here than being another one of Chelsea’s PSR assets who they have no intention of ever playing.

If you’re struggling with that concept, I can’t explain it any clearer I’m afraid.

Why?

[egg]

5 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Why?

He's highlighted Livramento as a reason why youth players shouldn't go there, whereas his career path highlights how they develop players for a career beyond Chelsea.

I think his point relates to the prospect of actually playing for Chelsea, rather than a young player acknowledging that they're a well paid Chelsea asset who will be developed through coaching and the loan system to find their level and be moved on for mutual gain in due course. It's a pathway club for kids, not the end destination. 

[Turkish]

23 minutes ago, egg said:

He's highlighted Livramento as a reason why youth players shouldn't go there, whereas his career path highlights how they develop players for a career beyond Chelsea.

I think his point relates to the prospect of actually playing for Chelsea, rather than a young player acknowledging that they're a well paid Chelsea asset who will be developed through coaching and the loan system to find their level and be moved on for mutual gain in due course. It's a pathway club for kids, not the end destination. 

 

Academies these days are just another means of profit for clubs. They're all at it, Chelsea, Liverpool, Man City (as we well know) make fortunes from selling their players and it's all clear profit. The idea that they're bringing them in to play in their first team is just nonsense. You might get one or two that do but the vast majority will end up elsewhere and will point to the fact they've spent a number of years at top academy. If a kid wants to go and learn his trade earning loads more than he will here then you cant blame him. 

There is a very interesting podcast i listen to about youth football. The point it makes is that if you're coming out of a club like Chelsea or Man City having not made it you're going to likely get another contract probably worst case one or two levels down, simply because clubs will take a gamble on a kid from there. It's much harder going up or staying the same level.

A good mate of mines kid was at Bradford for years, got a few offers at championship clubs for relatively good money when he was about 18 turned them down thinking he'd make Bradfords first team and got sold that dream to stay. Got a 1 year Pro contract, Got first team, played 3 times including one MOM. Then a new manager came in brought all his own players in and released him. He then couldnt get another pro club and is now gardening for a job and playing Northern Counties league. Thats how quick it can change if you dont take your chance. 

Edited 5 hours ago by Turkish