Israel

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Please quote where I said that. 

Thanks. 

"If people can take an extreme stance on the name of their god, they can surely take it in the name of no god."

Where are the terror attacks committed in the name of no god? When Jews are murdered or people blown up in order to advance the cause of atheism then it would probably be worthy of discussion.

[egg]

Just now, Farmer Saint said:

If in those riots last year someone managed to actually burn a hotel down, that would have killed more people than every Islamic attack in this country combined. It was purely by luck that we got away with that.

Nobody is saying that Islamic Extremists are not a problem. That would be stupid. However, extremists in general are a problem, regardless of religion, political leanings etc. 

Indeed. We should all acknowledge extremism in general as an issue, but an almost singular focus on one form of extremism is not healthy imo. Iansums honesty is commendable, but isolated. 

[egg]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

"If people can take an extreme stance on the name of their god, they can surely take it in the name of no god."

Where are the terror attacks committed in the name of no god? When Jews are murdered or people blown up in order to advance the cause of atheism then it would probably be worthy of discussion.

That's not a comment about the frequency! Stop making daft stuff up. 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, Farmer Saint said:

What is that significant number, because I doubt it is a significant number? What percentage do you think are extremists Islamists in this country?

It's a significant enough number that according to different sources, 60-70% of terrorist attacks or plots and convictions over the past couple of decades had Islamist links or motivations. It's significant enough that a number of people have died in high profile terror incidents in recent memory. 

[iansums]

10 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Ok, but what you're scared of is extremists, not Muslim's, which is wholly reasonable, and you also don't agree with Burkha's.

Where you going away to anyway? Have a good time.

Thanks mate, Tenerife for a week of sun

[egg]

4 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

You’ve done a sleight of hand there, those are two different things. Anybody of any religion can have extreme anti-Christian views, that’s not the same thing as extremely not believing in God.

I can say with almost absolute certainty that there is absolutely zero revealed truth in the Torah, for example. There’s not a person in the world who believes in the teachings of the Torah less than me. This doesn’t make me the world’s most extreme anti-Semite.

It's plainly possible that an individual can have an extreme view in support or opposition of anything. Bizarre that you think otherwise. 

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, egg said:

That's not a comment about the frequency! Stop making daft stuff up. 

Why are you posting about something that never happens then ? We have load of examples of terrorist attacks happening in the UK motivated by extremist Islam. We have zero to my knowledge happening to advance the cause of extremist atheism so the fact that it's feasible that someone could be motivated by that is of no relevance. Its factually accurate to say that we have a problem with extremist Islam in this country and we should take steps to deal with it. The fact there are other extremist ideology with different motivations committing terror attacks at a lower rate is also something that needs combating but it's a different thing. Highlighting the serious problem with extremist Islam is not suggesting that only religious extremism exists or that the only problem we face is Islamism. 

[hypochondriac]

11 minutes ago, egg said:

Indeed. We should all acknowledge extremism in general as an issue, but an almost singular focus on one form of extremism is not healthy imo. Iansums honesty is commendable, but isolated. 

How about the focus on the form of extremism that the director of MI5 states makes up roughly 75% of their workload? I'd suggest that given that startling statistic you'd be stupid to have a focus anywhere else.

[badgerx16]

Did the people fearing muslims in general because of the minority that are extremets similarly fear all Irish people because of the IRA ?

[badgerx16]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

How about the focus on the form of extremism that the director of MI5 states makes up roughly 75% of their workload? I'd suggest that given that startling statistic you'd be stupid to have a focus anywhere else.

Like proscribing people who spray red paint on planes.

[hypochondriac]

Just now, badgerx16 said:

Like proscribing people who spray red paint on planes.

Of course having your focus primarily on the largest threat does not mean ignoring other terrorist activities from other extremist ideologies.

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, iansums said:

I’m Islamaphobic then, happy with that, thank you.

Are you afraid of the Home Secretary ? She is, after all, Muslim.

[Farmer Saint]

34 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It's a significant enough number that according to different sources, 60-70% of terrorist attacks or plots and convictions over the past couple of decades had Islamist links or motivations. It's significant enough that a number of people have died in high profile terror incidents in recent memory. 

The issue is we are talking about the following:

- Number of Muslim's 

- Number of Muslim's following extremist teachings

- Number of Muslim's carrying out attacks based on extremist teachings

Each time that number gets significantly smaller, and puts people further away from islamophobia, and closer towards being scared of nutters, which I would say we all are.

It's similar to people who support Netanyahu's abuse of the Gazan people because Hamas are (were) in charge.

 

[egg]

24 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

How about the focus on the form of extremism that the director of MI5 states makes up roughly 75% of their workload? I'd suggest that given that startling statistic you'd be stupid to have a focus anywhere else.

That's an altogether different issue to your fixation and approach. You keep asking why people who are British are here, and throwing out the Robinson esque "send them back" mantra without a modicum of thought as the feasibility of that. 

[Farmer Saint]

26 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

How about the focus on the form of extremism that the director of MI5 states makes up roughly 75% of their workload? I'd suggest that given that startling statistic you'd be stupid to have a focus anywhere else.

Well just let one in 4 other get away with it then, and end up with more Jo Cox situations?

[badgerx16]

GMP presser; one of the dead victims and one of the wounded had gunshot wounds, though in the former's case it is not known if this wound was fatal. The suspect did not have a firearm.

Both people shot are thought to have been hiding behind the Synagogue's door.

Edited Friday at 11:24 by badgerx16

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Well just let one in 4 other get away with it then, and end up with more Jo Cox situations?

What are you talking about ? Of course you should look at the 25% as well but three quarters of your work should be on the bit causing three quarters of the problems. There really shouldn't be an argument with that. The religion should be irrelevant.

[rallyboy]

A lone deranged extremist has killed one worshipper at a synagogue and some people take that as a cue to be scared of an entire religion and everything associated with it.

Some balance and common sense needs to be found, not the kneejerk reactions and hate messages spouting from social media bots.

 

[hypochondriac]

9 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

The issue is we are talking about the following:

- Number of Muslim's 

- Number of Muslim's following extremist teachings

- Number of Muslim's carrying out attacks based on extremist teachings

Each time that number gets significantly smaller, and puts people further away from islamophobia, and closer towards being scared of nutters, which I would say we all are.

It's similar to people who support Netanyahu's abuse of the Gazan people because Hamas are (were) in charge.

 

Why do the raw numbers matter? There's enough Islamist nutters and people in this country who support them that it's a problem that takes up 75% of MI5 resources. That's a significant Islamist extremist problem that's significantly larger than every other form of extremism.

[Farmer Saint]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

What are you talking about ? Of course you should look at the 25% as well but three quarters of your work should be on the bit causing three quarters of the problems. There really shouldn't be an argument with that. The religion should be irrelevant.

You literally said:

38 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

How about the focus on the form of extremism that the director of MI5 states makes up roughly 75% of their workload? I'd suggest that given that startling statistic you'd be stupid to have a focus anywhere else.

 

[Farmer Saint]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Why do the raw numbers matter? There's enough Islamist nutters and people in this country who support them that it's a problem that takes up 75% of MI5 resources. That's a significant Islamist extremist problem that's significantly larger than every other form of extremism.

Because it gives perspective, that's the point. Islamophobia is not the fear of extremists, it's the fear of Muslims. We're all scared of extremists.

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Farmer Saint said:

Because it gives perspective, that's the point. Islamophobia is not the fear of extremists, it's the fear of Muslims. We're all scared of extremists.

Accepting that we have a specific problem with Islamic extremism that takes up significantly more time and resources to combat than any other type of extremism is not fearing all Muslims.

[badgerx16]

The new Archbishop of Canterbury says the Curch needs to "stand with the Jewish community - hatred and racism cannot be allowed to tear us apart". Why not say the same for the Muslim community, who are now going to be targetted because of the actions of one deranged nutter.

Edited Friday at 11:34 by badgerx16

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

You literally said:

 

OK I'll reword it for you. You'd be stupid to have your focus fixed largely on the overwhelming threat. Obviously I didn't mean only focus on Islamic extremism to the exclusion of all other extremism.

[hypochondriac]

Just now, badgerx16 said:

The new Archbishop of Canterbury says the Curch needs to "stand with the Jewish community - hatred an racism cannot be allowed to tear us apart". Why not say the same for the Muslim community, who are now going to be targetted because of the actions of one deranged nutter.

 

[Farmer Saint]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Accepting that we have a specific problem with Islamic extremism that takes up significantly more time and resources to combat than any other type of extremism is not fearing all Muslims.

But I've accepted that multiple times in my comments? I'm not sure what you're arguing here. That Islamic Extremists are more prevalent than others? Yes, we've all agreed with that. However, 25% aren't, and I think we're going to see a huge increase in that.

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

 

He was not the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Edited Friday at 11:37 by badgerx16

[hypochondriac]

11 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

A lone deranged extremist has killed one worshipper at a synagogue and some people take that as a cue to be scared of an entire religion and everything associated with it.

Some balance and common sense needs to be found, not the kneejerk reactions and hate messages spouting from social media bots.

 

Whilst it is obviously silly to be scared of an entire religion and everything associated with it, police have arrested a man and a woman on suspicion of planning a terror attack so it's not yet certain this was a lone Islamist nutter.

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Farmer Saint said:

But I've accepted that multiple times in my comments? I'm not sure what you're arguing here. That Islamic Extremists are more prevalent than others? Yes, we've all agreed with that. However, 25% aren't, and I think we're going to see a huge increase in that.

As long as we agree that it's not unusual to want a proportional focus to be on the Islamist extremists who represent the biggest threat by far then we don't have an argument.

[Farmer Saint]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

 

Exactly, you shouldn't conflate the two. Well said Norm, RIP bud.

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

He was not the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Obviously the primary focus in the immediate aftermath of a terror attack should be on the community that's been terrorised.

[Farmer Saint]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

As long as we agree that it's not unusual to want a proportional focus to be on the Islamist extremists who represent the biggest threat by far then we don't have an argument.

Well no, why would it be anything else? I am all about perspective and proportionality. What I'm not doing is criticising or being scared of all Muslims because of a very small percentage of nutters. The same as I'm not scared of all reform voters.

[egg]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

 

That's nonsensical flapping and incitement. ISIS can't just get their hands on a nuke.

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Obviously the primary focus in the immediate aftermath of a terror attack should be on the community that's been terrorised.

But not the community about to be targetted ? Don't delude yourself that all those St George's flags are being strung up purely out of altruistic patriotism.

Edited Friday at 11:43 by badgerx16

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

That's nonsensical flapping and incitement. ISIS can't just get their hands on a nuke.

It's a ten year old joke from a dead comedian.

[egg]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

But not the community about to be targetted ? Don't delude yourself that all those St George's flags are being strung up purely out of altruistic patriotism.

Absolutely. There's an undercurrent of disaffectment and/or prejudice amongst many of those people. There's a real potential of reaction from a community or people not directly impacted by what happened yesterday. 

[whelk]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Extremism is not just a religious thing. Beliefs go beyond that. You know that. 

Is there equivalent of another country being run by zealots of any other religion other than Islam? Eg Iran 

Plenty of despot nations with non-religious ideologies oppressing it’s citizens but only one religion seems to ever be in play 

[sadoldgit]

17 hours ago, iansums said:

Islamophobia is just a made up word, I don’t recognise it, why don’t we hear the word Hinduphobia or Christianphobia? We both know the reason. I know plenty about the history of the conflict thanks pal.

No it isn't a made up word and if you know “plenty about the history of the conflict” as you say, why not display some of that knowledge, pal? Look up Christophobia and Hinduphobia too.

At the moment you just sound like an apologist for Netanyahu and genocide.

You have an issue about Islam and it being “medieval.” Where do you stand on the practice of male genital mutilation (or circumcision as it is widely known)? Would you class that practice as “medieval” too or are you only interested in dissing one religion? There is plenty to criticise in other religions if you can be bothered to look.

You and people like you are why we are where we are today. You stoke and thrive on division and hatred. Whether you target Muslims, Jews, Christians, Sikhs, people with brown or black skin, gays, trans people etc., it all comes from the same place. You are proud of being a bigot. Little wonder you follow Farage and his ilk.

3 people died in the incident in Manchester yesterday. 53 people were killed in Gaza yesterday. 56 lives lost, and for what?

 

Edited Friday at 12:09 by sadoldgit
Added text

[whelk]

18 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

The new Archbishop of Canterbury says the Curch needs to "stand with the Jewish community - hatred and racism cannot be allowed to tear us apart". Why not say the same for the Muslim community, who are now going to be targetted because of the actions of one deranged nutter.

Maybe because Muslim community have not been attacked?

[hypochondriac]

14 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Well no, why would it be anything else? I am all about perspective and proportionality. What I'm not doing is criticising or being scared of all Muslims because of a very small percentage of nutters. The same as I'm not scared of all reform voters.

No one has asked you to.b I'm not either. You did however appear to broaden the issue by saying that the problem was extremism when I was highlighting the problem of Islamic extremism which is the cause of the majority of terror related problems in the UK. It sounds like do actually agree though so that's good.

[badgerx16]

4 minutes ago, whelk said:

Maybe because Muslim community have not been attacked?

But they are victims of racism and hatred, which was the point of the Archbishop's comment about the Jewish community.

[Farmer Saint]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

No one has asked you to.b I'm not either. You did however appear to broaden the issue by saying that the problem was extremism when I was highlighting the problem of Islamic extremism which is the cause of the majority of terror related problems in the UK. It sounds like do actually agree though so that's good.

I also said that the Islam faith has more extremists than other religions. We'll agree to agree anyway.

 

What I will say is that we will see an increase in extremist behaviour from all areas over the next few years, thanks to Israel, and the rise of the far right in many, many countries.

Edited Friday at 12:02 by Farmer Saint

[hypochondriac]

29 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

The new Archbishop of Canterbury says the Curch needs to "stand with the Jewish community - hatred and racism cannot be allowed to tear us apart". Why not say the same for the Muslim community, who are now going to be targetted because of the actions of one deranged nutter.

 

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

Like proscribing people who spray red paint on planes.

What are your thoughts on this?

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

I also said that the Islam faith has more extremists than other religions. We'll agree to agree anyway.

 

What I will say is that we will see an increase in extremist behaviour from all areas over the next few years, thanks to Israel, and the rise of the far right in many, many countries.

And if that prediction comes to pass I'd expect a proportional shift in focus to address rising extremism from other areas. You must admit though that there is an uneasiness from some to address the obviously problem of Islamic extremism lest they be tarred with a racist or islamophobic moniker. Fear of being branded is behind much of A paralysis and failure to deal with some of these issues in a timely manner. Hence the Pakistani rape gangs.

[whelk]

8 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

But they are victims of racism and hatred, which was the point of the Archbishop's comment about the Jewish community.

Like someone saying what about white lives mattering to a BLM protest after a police shooting. Giving support to a community after an attack is normal. 
Jewish community clearly feels threatened.

 

 

[whelk]

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

 

What are your thoughts on this?

Yeah but Netanyahu won’t stop unless the hippy vegans march for change

[whelk]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

some to address the obviously problem of Islamic extremism lest they be tarred with a racist or islamophobic moniker

Absolutely and a few 13 yo girls who have their lives ruined thanks to some too scared to address something clear to see. And don’t forget i am a rabid lefty

[Farmer Saint]

9 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

 

What are your thoughts on this?

Yeah, maybe they should have foresaw these murders taking place - twats.

Perhaps they should postpone their rally though...

[Farmer Saint]

9 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

And if that prediction comes to pass I'd expect a proportional shift in focus to address rising extremism from other areas. You must admit though that there is an uneasiness from some to address the obviously problem of Islamic extremism lest they be tarred with a racist or islamophobic moniker. Fear of being branded is behind much of A paralysis and failure to deal with some of these issues in a timely manner. Hence the Pakistani rape gangs.

Why weren't they called Islamic rape gangs? Genuine question here.

[LuckyNumber7]

3 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

Almost all religions are stuck in the dark ages. The main differences are in how tenaciously various people practice them to what extent the ruling authority is able to remain secular in any given country.

I'm absolutely not a fan of any religion, the world would be far better off without all of them. But Islam is by far the most backwards and hostile.

2 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

Yep, don't disagree with that. There is probably a higher percentage of Islamist extremists in the world that Christian extremists. But as a pure percentage it is still very low, hence why it is the extremists that need to be dealt with. 

There were 18,000 gun murders alone in the US last year. I would wager that is a far higher percentage of murderers in that society than there are extremist Islamists, and you should be far more scared of Americans than you are of Islamist extremists.

Tbh, given the prevalence of guns in the US, it's amazing there isn't more gun violence. 

Now imagine if every muslim in Europe had easy access to gun ownership. That really is a scary thought.