The Starmer Years - Can The New Broom Sweep Clean?

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

So presumably your preference was to have strikes and industrial throughout last year? Great negotiation tactic

Just so long as we accept that the original tactic of immediately folding and giving them what they ask for wasn't worthy of much praise given that it didn't actually solve the problem and simply postponed it for a year whilst making them realise that Labour will basically give them what they want if they make enough noise. 

Presumably you will want to avoid strikes and industrial action again this year so do we give in to the latest demands? What about the year after that? 

Edited Tuesday at 12:38 by hypochondriac

[AlexLaw76]

30 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Just so long as we accept that the original tactic of immediately folding and giving them what they ask for wasn't worthy of much praise given that it didn't actually solve the problem and simply postponed it for a year whilst making them realise that Labour will basically give them what they want if they make enough noise. 

Labour sorted out the Junior / resident doctors. Being they (Labour) had become the grown ups in the room etc.

I guess disabled kids, or some other marginalised group (bar illegal migrants of course), will have to make way to pay for this one. 

Edited Tuesday at 12:24 by AlexLaw76

[hypochondriac]

15 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Labour sorted out the Junior / resident doctors. Being they (Labour) had become the grown ups in the room etc.

I guess disabled kids, or some other marginalised group (bar illegal migrants of course), will have to make way to pay for this one. 

If capitulatibg and giving in to their demands is solving it then the Tories were imbeciles for not solving it sooner. I wonder if the reason they didn't is because they knew exactly what they'd be facing a year later. 

It's a common tactic I've seen though. We've had Labour being praised for sorting this and then when the inevitable happens and the doctors come back for more they blame the junior doctors. We've had similar with the rich people when it was dismissed as a myth that loads were leaving and then when it's proven that they are leaving they get blamed for being precious and not tough enough to take it. It couldn't possibly be the policies that are at fault. 

Edited Tuesday at 12:34 by hypochondriac

[AlexLaw76]

Teachers union right now…

 

[hypochondriac]

Yet more great news. The adults are back in the room for sure. 

[whelk]

52 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Just so long as we accept that the original tactic of immediately folding and giving them what they ask for wasn't worthy of much praise given that it didn't actually solve the problem and simply postponed it for a year whilst making them realise that Labour will basically give them what they want if they make enough noise. 

Presumably you will want to avoid strikes and industrial action again this year so do we give in to the latest demands? What about the year after that? 

They didn’t give them what they were asking for, they settled.

Im sorry that you and Batman seem so downtrodden and deferential to the ruling classes that you’d rather see tax breaks for millionaires over paying doctors a reasonable wage. Similarly teachers.

Although you seem very excited by a headline and seem to want to lay everything at Labour’s door as if they have met their demands already. Too bad you have an elected Labour government so expect some pain for a few more years yet. A wealth tax seems likely so that will be fun seeing you deeply opposed

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

They didn’t give them what they were asking for, they settled.

Im sorry that you and Batman seem so downtrodden and deferential to the ruling classes that you’d rather see tax breaks for millionaires over paying doctors a reasonable wage. Similarly teachers.

Although you seem very excited by a headline and seem to want to lay everything at Labour’s door as if they have met their demands already. Too bad you have an elected Labour government so expect some pain for a few more years yet. A wealth tax seems likely so that will be fun seeing you deeply opposed

Do you think the mass flight of millionaires from the UK will have a positive impact on overall standard of living for everyone? Do you accept that Labour's position from a year ago regarding the junior doctors did not actually solve the problem? 

[whelk]

27 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Do you think the mass flight of millionaires from the UK will have a positive impact on overall standard of living for everyone? Do you accept that Labour's position from a year ago regarding the junior doctors did not actually solve the problem? 

I don’t overly care. Jim Ratcliffe went to Monaco when Tories were ruling. If others are fucking off to somewhere soulless like Dubai I couldn’t care. As long as we make them pay massively for any wealth made from the Uk and also pay on any assets. Me and you clearly have differing views on why society feels broken - I am not sobbing for the fucking selfish tax exiles

[whelk]

31 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Do you accept that Labour's position from a year ago regarding the junior doctors did not actually solve the problem? 

It did solve the problem. You seem to think one vote in news today indicates they will cave to everyone’s demands always. Let’s see

[hypochondriac]

23 minutes ago, whelk said:

I don’t overly care. Jim Ratcliffe went to Monaco when Tories were ruling. If others are fucking off to somewhere soulless like Dubai I couldn’t care. As long as we make them pay massively for any wealth made from the Uk and also pay on any assets. Me and you clearly have differing views on why society feels broken - I am not sobbing for the fucking selfish tax exiles

With respect that wasn't answering the question. If we have large numbers of millionaires and billionaires leaving and that means we bring in less tax revenue that means we are going to have to either spend less or raise the tax revenue from the remaining poorer population. Yes? So having lots of wealthy people leaving the UK all at once isn't going to lead to anything positive unless you want the wealth gap to smaller so everyone can feel a sense of comradary when more people are all poor together. 

Edited Tuesday at 13:53 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

20 minutes ago, whelk said:

It did solve the problem. You seem to think one vote in news today indicates they will cave to everyone’s demands always. Let’s see

I never said nor claimed that. You said that the priority was preventing a summer of strikes and industrial action from the doctors. My stance was that being a soft touch was simply delaying the problem which would be worse next time around. If we now get a load of strikes and industrial action this year due to the poor negotiation from last summer then how has that solved the problem? 

[whelk]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

With respect that wasn't answering the question. If we have large numbers of millionaires and billionaires leaving and that means we bring in less tax revenue that means we are going to have to either spend less or raise the tax revenue from the remaining poorer population. Yes? 

Well done

Do you think we’d be richer if we cut all funding to Ukraine?

[whelk]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I never said nor claimed that. You said that the priority was preventing a summer of strikes and industrial action from the doctors. My stance was that being a soft touch was simply delaying the problem which would be worse next time around. If we now get a load of strikes and industrial action this year due to the poor negotiation from last summer then how has that solved the problem? 

If….

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

If….

How do you propose that the upcoming industrial action that the junior doctors have voted for is prevented? Will it differ from how they were ended last year do you think? 

[whelk]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So having lots of wealthy people leaving the UK all at once isn't going to lead to anything positive unless you want the wealth gap to smaller so everyone can feel a sense of comradary when more people are all poor together. 

Market equilibrium - give the vacant Russian oligarch’s Chelsea homes to charities. Homes are massively overpriced due to so much wealth wanting to invest for rents. Power to the People!

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, whelk said:

Well done

Do you think we’d be richer if we cut all funding to Ukraine?

I can see a clear benefit to funding Ukraine. What's the benefit of making the UK a less attractive place for wealthy people and how does it outweigh the negatives consequences? 

[whelk]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

How do you propose that the upcoming industrial action that the junior doctors have voted for is prevented? Will it differ from how they were ended last year do you think? 

Unions reject pay settlements since time began. Really don’t understand why you are reading so much into this. Happy to discuss when we are further down the line and can see how this played out

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

Market equilibrium - give the vacant Russian oligarch’s Chelsea homes to charities. Homes are massively overpriced due to so much wealth wanting to invest for rents. Power to the People!

Seize the means of production. Did you vote for Corbyn? 

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, whelk said:

Unions reject pay settlements since time began. Really don’t understand why you are reading so much into this. Happy to discuss when we are further down the line and can see how this played out

OK then but if we are saying that the government had no choice but to settle last year in order to prevent a summer of industrial action, what substantial change has there been that would mean that there will be other options available this year? Yes things may playput differently but you clearly have something else in mind. 

[rallyboy]

Less than half of one percent of UK millionaires have left.

This tiny minority clearly have no loyalty to this country - so fuck em.

Ditto the Brexit supporters who moved their businesses abroad to avoid paying UK tax.

😊 

 

[whelk]

52 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

Less than half of one percent of UK millionaires have left.

This tiny minority clearly have no loyalty to this country - so fuck em.

Ditto the Brexit supporters who moved their businesses abroad to avoid paying UK tax.

😊

 

Maybe if we took £4 an hour off the minimum wage we could entice them back to invest and make more profit. Everyone wins right

[whelk]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Seize the means of production. Did you vote for Corbyn? 

Didn’t live in his constituency. This Starmer bloke seems far more radical though - his mad policies carry on there won’t be a millionaire left in the country

[whelk]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

I can see a clear benefit to funding Ukraine. What's the benefit of making the UK a less attractive place for wealthy people and how does it outweigh the negatives consequences? 

Maybe have no tax system at all and make it really fucking attractive to all the millionaires everywhere 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, whelk said:

Didn’t live in his constituency. This Starmer bloke seems far more radical though - his mad policies carry on there won’t be a millionaire left in the country

It isn't happening to it is happening but it's only a bit (but many times more than every other developed nation) in less than a year. Good stuff. 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, whelk said:

Maybe have no tax system at all and make it really fucking attractive to all the millionaires everywhere 

Or maybe a healthy balance would be more sensible. I would suggest that given the rate they are leaving that that isn't a good direction of travel or a positive development that is going to lead to better outcomes for the country. Presumably you'd be happy if we introduced more measures so even more left and in greater numbers just so you could feel better about things. 

[whelk]

Some examples of some decent people here albeit an old link 

The rich people who say they are happy to pay their taxes https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-31517383

 

[whelk]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Or maybe a healthy balance would be more sensible. I would suggest that given the rate they are leaving that that isn't a good direction of travel or a positive development that is going to lead to better outcomes for the country. Presumably you'd be happy if we introduced more measures so even more left and in greater numbers just so you could feel better about things. 

Depends on the measures- there will always be a limit on those that want to exile.

An aside question, are you supportive of millionaires and companies that avoid tax legally at all costs eg Starbucks, Nando’s, Jimmy Carr etc?

[trousers]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

maybe a healthy balance would be more sensible

A balanced viewpoint? On the Saintsweb forum...?

 

Nah... you gotta pick a side and stick with it regardless...

 

[whelk]

Just now, trousers said:

Nah... you gotta pick a side and stick with it regardless

That’s the spirit!

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

Some examples of some decent people here albeit an old link 

The rich people who say they are happy to pay their taxes https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-31517383

 

It may be the case that rich people who stay and pay higher taxes are better people but if it continues to get steadily more unattractive to live here and more and more leave as a consequence, it's sort of irrelevant how we feel about those leaving. It's still going to have a negative effect. 

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

Depends on the measures- there will always be a limit on those that want to exile.

An aside question, are you supportive of millionaires and companies that avoid tax legally at all costs eg Starbucks, Nando’s, Jimmy Carr etc?

Not particularly. I do think if you are legally avoiding tax then that's kind of the problem with the way the government has designed the system. If you get away with paying less tax than morally you should then if you're not breaking the law the ginger should be pointed at those in charge for allowing people to exploit the system. I'm not saying don't pay any tax but what I am saying is that in a global market it makes little sense to me to introduce policies that hammer the wealthy if it encourages growing number of them to just leave at a rate not seen in other nations. 

[whelk]

Very topical Hypo. Discussing taxation and wealth. Balanced

 

[egg]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

I never said nor claimed that. You said that the priority was preventing a summer of strikes and industrial action from the doctors. My stance was that being a soft touch was simply delaying the problem which would be worse next time around. If we now get a load of strikes and industrial action this year due to the poor negotiation from last summer then how has that solved the problem? 

Were the doctors underpaid? Yes.

Were the strikes damaging? Yes.

Did we need to settle? Yes. 

You're issue seems to be nothing more than you think that we settled a long running issue too soon. That takes us back to Whelk's point that we'd have had ongoing strikes if we didn't settle. 

You're not making a whole lot of sense on this. 

[The Kraken]

7 minutes ago, egg said:

You're not making a whole lot of sense on this. 

This. It’s a bit of a reach, unless you want it to be.

[hypochondriac]

12 minutes ago, egg said:

Were the doctors underpaid? Yes.

Were the strikes damaging? Yes.

Did we need to settle? Yes. 

You're issue seems to be nothing more than you think that we settled a long running issue too soon. That takes us back to Whelk's point that we'd have had ongoing strikes if we didn't settle. 

You're not making a whole lot of sense on this. 

OK so now they've come back again a year later promising more damaging strikes and demanding more money. Presumably we need to settle once again. How do we deal with it in a way that doesn't give them even more money or encourage them to simy strike yet again in a years time?

[egg]

37 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

OK so now they've come back again a year later promising more damaging strikes and demanding more money. Presumably we need to settle once again. How do we deal with it in a way that doesn't give them even more money or encourage them to simy strike yet again in a years time?

Did we need to resolve the last pay issue?

Did that involve giving more cash?

If it's a no to either, you're on a different page to pretty much everyone else. 

If it's yes to both, what should the government have done differently? I think your point is that they should have dragged it out...have I misunderstood? 

Edited Tuesday at 17:46 by egg

[hypochondriac]

23 hours ago, whelk said:

Unions reject pay settlements since time began. Really don’t understand why you are reading so much into this. Happy to discuss when we are further down the line and can see how this played out

Strikes announced on the 25th of July. Just over two weeks to get it sorted before we are further down the line and a summer of strikes is upon us. 

[Weston Super Saint]

19 hours ago, egg said:

Did we need to resolve the last pay issue?

Did that involve giving more cash?

If it's a no to either, you're on a different page to pretty much everyone else. 

If it's yes to both, what should the government have done differently? I think your point is that they should have dragged it out...have I misunderstood? 

From what I can see we are now back in the same boat, so :

Do we need to resolve the current pay issue?

Will that involve giving more cash?

Are these both still a 'yes' despite the pretty hefty rise doctors are currently looking for - and if so, why, as wasn't last year's increase meant to put everything 'back on track'?

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said:

From what I can see we are now back in the same boat, so :

Do we need to resolve the current pay issue?

Will that involve giving more cash?

Are these both still a 'yes' despite the pretty hefty rise doctors are currently looking for - and if so, why, as wasn't last year's increase meant to put everything 'back on track'?

Will we be asking the same questions if strike action is threatened next year? 

[egg]

44 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

From what I can see we are now back in the same boat, so :

Do we need to resolve the current pay issue?

Will that involve giving more cash?

Are these both still a 'yes' despite the pretty hefty rise doctors are currently looking for - and if so, why, as wasn't last year's increase meant to put everything 'back on track'?

Yes to both.

What's the alternative way to solve a pay dispute to agree the terms of the pay? 

That said,whilst I had some sympathy last time, they're taking the piss this time. 29% is mental. 

I'd still appreciate Hypo to answer the question as to what he says the government should have done differently last time. 

Edited yesterday at 14:04 by egg

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Yes to both.

What's the alternative way to solve a pay dispute to agree the terms of the pay? 

That said,whilst I had some sympathy last time, they're taking the piss this time. 29% is mental. 

I'd still appreciate Hypo to answer the question as to what he says the government should have done differently last time. 

So the only way to ever resolve threats of strike action from unions is to give them the majority of what they're asking for every time in order to avoid strike action? Why would every single union in the country not vote for strikes every year if that was the only option? 

[egg]

10 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So the only way to ever resolve threats of strike action from unions is to give them the majority of what they're asking for every time in order to avoid strike action? Why would every single union in the country not vote for strikes every year if that was the only option? 

I've asked you twice how you say the government should have dealt with it last time and twice you've ignored me. Please answer, and I'll then answer your question. 

[Farmer Saint]

On 08/07/2025 at 13:48, hypochondriac said:

Yet more great news. The adults are back in the room for sure. 

BALD!!!

[Weston Super Saint]

57 minutes ago, egg said:

Yes to both.

What's the alternative way to solve a pay dispute to agree the terms of the pay? 

That said,whilst I had some sympathy last time, they're taking the piss this time. 29% is mental. 

I'd still appreciate Hypo to answer the question as to what he says the government should have done differently last time. 

I agree that the settlement was correct last year.

My point was that the agreement last year was supposed to put them back on track - and was agreed as such by the union and its members.  Therefore the award for this year should have been voted through (I think it was meant to be somewhere in the region of 4% recommended?), so striking and demanding 29% is taking the piss and will only damage the NHS.

Unless that's the plan - strike now, build up a backlog, then enjoy the lucrative overtime to clear it?

[hypochondriac]

48 minutes ago, egg said:

I've asked you twice how you say the government should have dealt with it last time and twice you've ignored me. Please answer, and I'll then answer your question. 

I think negotiations should have been tougher last year if for no other reason than to dampen enthusiasm for further strikes the following year. The manner of the settlement from last year clearly hasn't solved the problem. 

[whelk]

These strikes up and down the country are so bad it should be called the Summer of Discontent. Knew this would happen with a Labour government held to ransom by their Marxist union paymasters. The list of industrial action is too long to go into detail but suffice it to say paralysis of country helps no-one. Every tax payer will be in Singapore soon

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

These strikes up and down the country are so bad it should be called the Summer of Discontent. Knew this would happen with a Labour government held to ransom by their Marxist union paymasters. The list of industrial action is too long to go into detail but suffice it to say paralysis of country helps no-one. Every tax payer will be in Singapore soon

No need to wildly exaggerate. We are waiting to see what happens with regards to industrial action as according to you trade unions reject pay deals all the time and it's just part of a tactic. Presumably they have no real intention of striking. Hopefully over the next fortnight Labour will work to head off the strikes without giving the unions all the money they want. 

[whelk]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

No need to wildly exaggerate. We are waiting to see what happens with regards to industrial action as according to you trade unions reject pay deals all the time and it's just part of a tactic. Presumably they have no real intention of striking. Hopefully over the next fortnight Labour will work to head off the strikes without giving the unions all the money they want. 

No way they are getting their demands this time. Industrial action is likely to prevail when there is sympathy for their cause. The public will not be tooting their horns in support. They lose pay by striking of course so always a two way battle of who has the stomach for it. 
You seem to think it was complete capitulation that has empowered them. Lots of these unions find out the hard way that workers don’t hold all the power

[Weston Super Saint]

Just now, whelk said:

No way they are getting their demands this time. Industrial action is likely to prevail when there is sympathy for their cause. The public will not be tooting their horns in support. They lose pay by striking of course so always a two way battle of who has the stomach 

I'm sure they will.

Probably get the pots and pans out on Thursdays as well.

[egg]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

I agree that the settlement was correct last year.

My point was that the agreement last year was supposed to put them back on track - and was agreed as such by the union and its members.  Therefore the award for this year should have been voted through (I think it was meant to be somewhere in the region of 4% recommended?), so striking and demanding 29% is taking the piss and will only damage the NHS.

Unless that's the plan - strike now, build up a backlog, then enjoy the lucrative overtime to clear it?

We agree. They needed to settle, and they doctors are now taking the piss. Common sense says that last time they'd have struck a future proof deal (or at least for a few years). If the deal didn't cover this year, there has to be a deal, but nothing like the daft number being demanded.