CB Fry

He was solid but he did seem to hoooooof it quite a lot more than I was expecting from the defender described by everyone as cultured and "ball playing". We were scrappy as hell in the second half, we do lack creativity so hopefully when he settles in Fonte can play a part in helping us play our way out of this league. Pretty ropey game all in all, we were far better first half then second. We'll be nowhere near the play offs playing like that. Crowd was excellent and easily outnumbered and outsung the MK fans. Little tip for the MK ticket office - put some vocal home fans near the away end. Does wonders for the atmosphere.

I don't think they do. They shouldn't anyway. The Away goals rule is pretty dopey in European games but utterly ridiculous in domestic football.

I've answered all your questions, apart from the stupid ones about did Pardew give a second interview etc. Obviously he didn't because what he said in the interview is covered accurately in the Echo. The Echo don't imply we'd made a bid, they said we'd "made a move". And Pardew did make a move. How else does he know the two clubs are a distance away on valuation. No I don't work for the Echo but I will always defend them against wallies who have a go at them for "implying" things when they have done nothing of the sort.

Well that's a different thread of the debate. I'm defending the Echo against people lying about what it says and then bleating about how awful the press is. Everyone is playing the game. I am sure Donny don't want to sell, but might have to, so have to look like they don't need to.

The appointment of Gray was justified in that he had a decent end of season before, and was popular with the players and is an excellent coach rated very highly in the game. And was loyal as he refused to go to Spurs with Hoddle. I think that meant a lot to Lowe. Moyes I think turned us down (we only allowed him to bring one assistant, Lowe wanted to be loyal to Gray and other backroomers), as did McClaren (who I think didn't come because of money and Boro being a better option). Being that there are plenty of people that called for the appointment of Dodd/Le Tiss/Benali/Svennson etc etc every time our job comes up it sometimes is a bit rich when people slate Gray's appointment in retrospect. So Gray was understandable and forgivable - but others, esp Wigley were unforgivable. All that sad, I was anti his appointment from day one anyway. But could understand it.

Christ almighty. The point is people are slating the Echo for saying we have made a bid when the Echo do not say we have made a bid, just people deciding they think the Echo are saying we have made a bid then complaining that the Echo are saying we have made a bid. Even though they didn't. And then pompously grandstand about how terribly awful the "rags" are at exactly the same time of attributing things to them which they simply haven't said. Or lying, as its known. Pulling the text apart to prove the Echo could be saying we've made a bid just backs up my point even more. We've made a move, we've talked to Doncaster about valuations. That's what Pardew said, that's what the Echo said. Everything else is dinlows making out the Echo are saying something then having a go at the Echo for it. Even though they didn't. I am delighted that you have conceded that the only way they could disagree about valuations is by talking to Doncaster about valuations. Which in my book, constitutes "making a move". Unless you think football managers spend their time ringing up random clubs for random valuations on players they have no interest in. And a "valuation" is a "fee" which they couldn't agree on, unless you think Saints are offering a net of training balls in return for Stock. "Saints have made a move to sign Doncaster Rovers skipper Brian Stock, it was revealed tonight." "But Southampton boss Alan Pardew claimed that two clubs could not agree on a fee for the 28-year-old midfielder" So no mention of a bid. I can quote it, you can quote it. No one is making any freaking bids.

LOL I'm happy to get behind the revival of classic forum running gags FFS!

Well the Echo didn't. My point stands, people have a go at the Echo for suggesting things that only actually occur in the reader's heads. It looks like a bid hasn't been made, and no publication is saying a bid has been made, the Echo is not saying a bid has been made, but smart-arse "all papers are rags" dinlows come on here and complain about the Echo saying a bid has been made because they've decided they think the Echo are saying a bid have been made. Newsflash - the Echo do not say a bid has been made. So please can people stop grizzling about "rag" newspapers when they don't even say the things the grizzlers are grizzling about.

The story above says Saints have made a move for Stock but the two clubs cannot currently agree on a fee. Any smart arse want to argue with this? Ah, here's a smart arse right on cue.... The Echo story doesn't mention the fact we've made a bid so you are falling over yourself to say the Echo is making stuff up that you yourself have made up. And the Echo story also doesn't mention we have "confirmed a bid has been made rejected and that we were not going back for another try.". Again, you're getting all bothered about "press speculation" when the Echo story doesn't mention what you are yourself speculating. But you carry on ranting on about "rags" and lying about the text in said newspapers and then complaining about it. Them newspapers eh? Aren't they terrible and stuff making stuff up in your own head

Fair enough, I don't know either way. I was going on the post before mine.

It's going to be a deadline day deal then. Doncaster will have a choice - £1m (or whatever our final offer is) from us, or nothing in the summer. I think they need the money.

It's not, it's just how football works and sorry it is how every successful club is doing it, excluding the Alex Ferguson don't bother, we know exception. From Arsenal to Everton, from Villa to Fulham, from Wigan to Spurs, from Forest to Leicester, from Leeds to Norwich, from Doncaster to Peterborough*, from Exeter to Rochdale, from Bournemouth to Swindon. All of them. Successful and delivered by managers instantly, within a full season, or eighteen months or so. Find an exception. Find one. In two years time, if all we are doing is "knocking on the door" then the team will need to be rebuilt anyway.

We would have to have had an appalling end to the season for NC to sack Pardew this season. We'll finish eighth bare minimum this year which will be disappointing but not surprising considering the start we made, we can still make the play offs. Pardew will have next season to get us promoted but I think NC and AP will both know it will be "promotion without fail". He is and will be given everything he could reasonably expect and more so will have no complaints if he fails next year and is removed. NC I don't think will be trigger happy but he will expect results next season if we don't do it this, and so he should.

But the point is every successful club in the UK has done this. The list of names I put above is testament to it. It's alchemy - the right manager at the right time. But the success happens within eighteen months or a full season or never. Gordon Strachan was given "another 18 months, bringing in his new staff, buying the players he fancies, blah blah blah" and in that time we'd finished eighth and got to the cup final and six months later we were fourth. The most important thing to remember is if we do fail next season, all our good players will be cherry picked and gone. If Lallana plays out of his skin next season, and we finish eighth, or even lose the play offs, he will go. Ditto Lambert, Ditto Harding, definitely Ditto Fonte. They could say I have done my bit but I don't want to play in L1 anymore and who could blame them. This idea that we can fail and then just keep building and building is a forlorn hope. If we don't go up next season there will be gigantic upheaval. Even if the manager stays, the team will be completely different anyway.

Pardew is delivering and we'll be near as dammit to (if not in) the play offs this season and top four next season pushing automatic promotion. And yes, Pardew will be under pheonomenal pressure next year but his instant success this season gets him time. I am not saying every manager must be sacked after 18 months, just that if you don't get success in that time you never will, and the next one could.

It's called instant success and it seems to annoy people on this forum.

Absolutely - the Iain Dowie at Palace thing is as much of a red herring as the Sir Alex cliche. Pardew is already an instant success in my book and I agree about pre-season but I think the argument is weaker when yesterday we played a back four where three of them would have only met each other merely days before*!

Why don't you ask Arsene Wenger, Phil Brown, Billy Davies, Nigel Pearson, David Moyes, Martin Jol, Jose Mourinho, Owen Coyle, Aidy Boothroyd, Paul Lambert, Danny Wilson, Paul Tisdale, Rafa Benitez, Roy Hodgson, Ian Holloway, Sean O'Driscoll or countless others, including Dave Jones, Glenn Hoddle, Gordon Strachan and Alan Pardew for us. They've all delivered instant success - are you going to sneer at them too? All the successful managers currently in England have delivered success within their first full season. All of them. Every single one of them. Except, yawn freaking yawn, Alex Ferguson, but the arse aching bores still won't let go. You've got around 18 months/one full season to deliver success, or you simply will not be a success. That's modern football. Get over it.

Hilarious. In August 2009, "the future" was May 2010. This season. Harding is clearly talking about this season. How many players sign for a club in August and then start talking about targets for two years time without explicitly saying "in two years time" or "next season"? Harding is clearly talking about this season. Anyway, where is this avalanche of quotes from Pardew talking about how we are not aiming for the play-offs this season? Anyone?

Funny how you were the first to grizzle about how "little funds/resources" Burley had to compete* blah blah blah. You try and have it both ways all the time - if having no money is such a disadvantage to your hero Whiskey George then having lots of money is an advantage, right?

Thank god that Alan Pardew and Nicola Cortese don't agree with you one bit. They are going for the play offs and they are going for promotion this season. I know it doesn't fit your little wet dream of "let's be rubbish for two seasons then be good because that's what Ted Bates did" but its 2010 and modern football is about instant success. And Pardew and Cortese want instant success. And Pardew and Cortese are delivering instant success too, blowing your "it takes five years to build success" nonsense clean away. It's fantastic we have men of passionate determination running the football club rather that the pi ss weak quitters that populate this forum.

Didn't sound like we deserved a win anyway, the freekick was our only chance on goal in the second half, wasn't it?

Yes, and I repeat the point I made in the previous post. 95% of the fan base for the entirity of Lowe's reign were screaming for us to live completely beyond our means by spending lots of money we didn't have. So in that context picking over the bones of the freaking mortgage on SMS is pretty futile, especially now.

Who says Ward and his agent "messed us around" then, and who says 18 months was his idea? The poor bugger we signed today only got 6 months*, so was he messing us about even more? And you're kidding yourself if you think Fonte is dropping down a division for anything other than the fat contract we've given him. Good luck to him, but he is here because we've broken the bank and his previous employers were skint. You can't use the line "well, that's football" on one hand and then complain about agents and players messing about and moving only for money. Christ, if anything deserves a "well, that's football" it's money grabbing agents and players.

You seem to be missing how interest rates work. Even if you take the £5m off and call it a £27m mortgage, 8% every year on that is £2m, over ten years £20m odd just in interest, add the capital back in and a total amount repayable of over £40m. We may have been paying only the interest off in later years or simply just struggling to pay off the £5odd million we needed to find each year. You could call it "complete financial mismanagement" but for the fact that during that whole time 95% of the fan base were screaming for us to buy £10m players and pay them £40k a week for five years. But who cares now anyway?