hypochondriac

Hold on no I didn't you are trying to twist my words. We are clearly talking in general terms here and in general people feel more comfortable around like minded people. Otherwise why do areas like Soho and large parts of Brighton exist? Or why does Southampton have a large Polish population for example? Why are they not evenly spread over the rest of the UK?

I don't think the reason to come out should be because it will then be easier for everyone else. If someone wants to make their sexuality public then they should do it for themselves, not because they fancy doing it for noble reasons.

That's rubbish, we weren't shocking. Both teams were poor but it was pretty even (and dull!)

And no one has really disagreed with that. It's what those reasons are and the numbers who feel this way that no one really knows for sure.

I didn't say they felt uncomfortable simply that they felt more comfortable among a load of other gay people in much the same way as most people feel more comfortable in the company of people who are the same as them. That's hardly earth shattering news.

I can see your point. I'm not sure I'd want the media hassle either.

I suspect that is true. Gay people feel more comfortable surrounded by other like minded people in Brighton and soho. That's hardly a shock.

But equally just because that's what you may experience does not mean it is prevalent in wider society or that your experience is typical of homophobic Britain. We have just as many posters on here saying that what you and others describe is not their reality just as there are people who support you. I don't see many if any gay people holding hands and kissing in public so not sure why a football match would be much different.

That's my point. No one is denying it happens- undoubtedly it does.

I'm not sure posting about it on a football forum is going to make it an issue in the eyes of the public! Just because the act of coming our or gay people in general are not really a big deal, doesn't mean the issues surrounding it aren't worth talking about and discussing. Particularly if there are people under the impression that disgusting homophobia is routinely spouted by average members of the British public on a daily basis! How sheltered and naive we must be for questioning this narrative...

poor old Chapel End Charlie. Dropped a b*llock here it would seem...

I didn't know financial sales was the worst for that sort of thing!

Exactly. I'd like to think that people have other things to talk about rather than branding someone a gay male. Maybe that's the mindset of footballers too and why they wouldn't want to come out and deal with both the positive and the negative attention. Thanks for giving your perspective and as a gay man I suspect it is slightly more informed on the issue than most of us on here.

Hold on I haven't offered any conclusions about that. I've offered some suggestions rather than jumping to conclusions and stating things as fact like you have.

People can make their own minds up but if the media make a big song and dance about something it gives the illusion that it's a super big and important thing when it isn't really. Good to see you read what I type though

It could be but there isn't really any way of knowing if it is a widespread problem, short of a study which surveys footballers to investigate. I'm not sure why you have a problem with the word maybe, it just shows that when we are discussing the motivations for gay footballers we really don't know a lot so best not to jump to conclusions. I used the gay friend comment to underline the fact that context is key with 'hate crimes' so why you keep bringing it up I have no idea. Do you have a problem with people having gay friends?

Maybe they don't want time in the limelight? Maybe they want to get their affairs in order before being in the limelight in that way? We don't know.

Of course there are some gay footballers. I'm sure there are some gay footballers who would like to be open about it just as there will be some who wish to be private. At the risk of repeating myself, we don't know the reasons why though do we? I don't think we should leap to the assumption that it's because we are a homophobic society. I don't think that's true and it's just as likely to be other factors IMO.

I'm not looking for the most overt examples, I was using sadoldgit's definition and asking what examples other people had seen, particularly because some people are saying they see examples on a weekly basis. Some posters on this thread are saying that homophobia is a huge problem in Britain and all I was asking for were examples of the homophobia they see so frequently. If the answer is that homophobia is when any gay person is offended by a remark or comment then I disagree. As we already discussed, footballers may have reservations about being openly gay for a host of reasons and not necessarily anything to do with fear of abuse. It's a personal choice and they will have their own reasons.

Probably a fair comment. My main beef is with those who paint Britain as some sort of racist, homophobic and sexist hotbed when really that's not the Britain I or I suspect many others recognise.

I agree but the point is that we don't know the reasons so we shouldn't automatically assume it's because we are a country of homophobes oppressing gay footballers.

So do you see weekly instances of gay people being bullied because of their sexuality on the streets of Britain? I'm really surprised if that is the case. Your definition there I think would make it much more narrow than for example having a joke with a friend. Most people I meet tend to keep themselves to themselves and are usually just normal pleasant individuals. Even the rude idiots aren't going around bullying people for being gay.

It may well be the case that people haven't come out because they fear homophobic abuse (though I think a lot has changed in seventeen years.) I don't know but then I don't think anyone else other than the gay players know either so to say automatically it's because loads of people are homophobes and scaring them into silence is incorrect IMO.The tabloid thing you mention is a good point and my suspicion is that this is one of the main reasons why people do not want to be the first to be open about their sexuality. All the stuff about how the crowds and others would react if someone did come out as gay is just specualation and we simply don't know what the reaction would be. I strongly suspect though that the vast majority of people either wouldn't care or would be respectful. It will be interesting to see what viewpoint is proven to be right when it finally does happen.

I see you have again refused to say what weekly homophobia you see? What sort of stuff is this that you see and which you think is homophobic? I'm genuinely interested. Where in my answer above have I offered a definition of homophobia? I simply asked what YOU considered to be homophobia, I didn't give my own definition. My suspicion is that whilst we both see the extreme stuff as homophobia, it's the milder things where we would disagree and I would argue that dependent on what that milder stuff is (taking into account what I said earlier about context etc), it does not necessarily support the opinion that homophobia is running rampant through British society.

really? I'm sure I read in a few articles that instance of transgender abuse were much more prevalent in society. I could be wrong though but I have heard a number of transgender campaigners complain that they have been lumped in with everyone else and that it is a very separate and distinct problem so not comparable with gay and lesbian groups. Where did I request that you provide evidence? I simply said that it's certainly not something I have encountered and definitely not on a weekly basis. I'd be interested to know the sort of weekly encounters you have since it would help me to see what you consider homophobic. Rather like when Kelvins right glove on here was saying that Britain is a racist and sexist society, I tend to believe that the vast majority are accepting and tolerant of others and that in many cases those who truly believe we are a racist, sexist and homophobic society are the ones who go out of their way to look for these things so that they can be offended. That's not to say there are some unenlightened groups of people who may shout abuse or beat up homosexuals because of who they are attracted to and I agree that never will have any place in society. We will never have a perfect society free of all prejudice due to human nature, but we've come a long way since the seventies and particularly when you see attitudes in countries such as Russia. I believe that in the main we are a tolerant nation who are generally accepting of others.