CanadaSaint

I'm with you on this. Trying to detach from the natural game-to-game mentality for a minute (mostly negative because of the never-ending bad results), I'm wondering what the hell has actually happened. Have we really spent a p*sspot full of money on bad central defenders (who were hitherto well regarded enough to play for their national teams). Or have we turned decent defenders into error-prone disasters with our system? Today's errors were a barely tyro level, ball-watching embarrassment. It almost looks like we get caught in a void between man-to-man and zonal marking, with nobody ever seeming to know what "mode" we're in - until it's too late. I've always liked Yoshida but he has been awful for several games, and his ball-watching/back turning performance today was dire. I guess we'll soon find out whether we really did buy crap CDs or whether the defensive system has actually been at the root of their errors. A fresh set of eyes and all that ...

We're seeing some pattern in the individual defensive errors that are costing us points - fart-arsing around when the safe play is to put the ball out. Hoedt last week and Yoshida this week both had chances to clear things up but opted to try to nick the ball, and it cost us big-time on both occasions. I'm starting to think that our best central pairing might be Yoshida and Stephens (or even Bednarek). Vestergaard isn't fast enough to cover space, and his brain seems to work as fast as his feet. Still reasonably optimistic. We missed Ings and Bertrand, but Hughes will have to find a way of dovetailing Ings and Armstrong because they both deserve to play. With Lemina and PEH that's a pretty damn good unit. Redmond's playing well up until the final ball. He needs to alternate between tricky-dickie and early delivery, but everyone knows he will be tricky dickie every time. Alternating might give him that extra yard of space.

Not a bad performance so far. Sure, they don't have Vardy but we're without Austin.

This fixture isn't an inconvenience in a competition we're very unlikely to win, or a chance to give under-used players a run-out - it's a opportunity to start fixing the issues. From Saturday I would think (hope) that Hughes's faith in Hoedt must be crumbling. I'd go with a back four of Bednarek, Yoshida, Vestergaard and Bertrand. Yoshida didn't play well on Saturday but he had Hoedt alongside him, and - for me - he's the best "reader" of situations among our CDs; the rest are reactors, and slow ones at that. Sure, Bednarek is vulnerable to wide pace, but Cedric keeps getting done like a kipper anyway and is inept in the air. Sadly, I don't see Hughes leaving Cedric out at any point. Lemina and PEH are fine. If Ings is fit I'd play him and leave out Austin - Ings and Armstrong will need to figure out a dovetail. If Ings isn't fit, I'd give Obafemi another run - he was nippy in the box, or try Gallagher. That's an attacking line-up, but we would have a more solid back four - and Hughes needs to stress the need for Gabi and Redmond to track back earlier rather than later. We can't keep conceding goals from wide (even touchline) concentration errors. If Ings, Obafemi and Gallagher are unavailable I'd still leave Austin out and play with ten, as we did for most of Saturday.

Fred, I'm not any happier about our situation than anyone else - especially about his decision to keep starting Hoedt and Austin. Fitness is not the issue IMO because we kept pushing hard for the full 95. Our errors aren't physical but mental - and Yes, of course it's Hughes's job to sort it out. However, there are three big "buts" to the Hughes-Out campaign: 1) We played quite well yesterday, and without two key pieces - Ings (very important for us) and Bertrand (he dovetails well with Redmond, and has covered Hoedt's arse on multiple occasions.). IMO we've been better this season than last, though certainly not points-wise. 2) Most of the people who are hammering Hughes are also saying that we only have a Championship-level squad. They can't have it both ways, but posting anything that doesn't fit the unremitting negativity on here goes down like a fart in church. 3) I'm sure you've read the Hughes Out thread and seen the 'options' - hence the "Hughes frying pan into an unknown fire" comment. I'll stick with my perspectives on Hughes for now because I think (fear?) we might well be stuck with eachother for a while.

Sure, "the table doesn't lie", but I stand by what I said - we've competed well in most fixtures except City away, and we are playing much better than we were last year. Missed chances and individual errors at the back are killing us - not poor management and tactics (like last year). I'm no big fan of Hughes but, while I understand why yesterday's result is viewed as a sackable offence, yesterday's overall performance wasn't. Hughes needs to get Hoedt the hell out of there - he's not just making his own errors but exposing others in the process. And he needs to ditch Austin because he provides neither mobility nor the ability to even hold while others get forward. We have the players to be mid table, and the middle-third looks way better than last year. I don't see the point of jumping out of the Hughes frying pan into an unknown fire. It's just my opinion, and - unlike you - I don't feel the need to keep jamming other people's views down their throats just because I don't agree with them.

It won’t be the fashionable view but I don’t think there are grounds to fire Hughes today. We were much the better side – undone by needless individual errors. AFAIC we’ve played better this year than last, but missed chances and mistakes are killing us. We are NOT among the three worst sides in the division.

It was more a general comment than a goal-specific comment. Cedric's not good enough to cover a lot of space, and we need to anticipate rather than react if we're to cover it. Sessegnon will do it again if we let him.

Cedric done like a kipper again, but - as at Man City - he's left isolated out there. Gabi needs to be better at coming back.

Utterly bemusing formation-wise, considering that everyone knows about City's wide threat with Silva and Sané. Cedric, who can have trouble containing one decent attacker, is given two to handle in loads of space. Meanwhile, JWP, who could be out there helping him, is getting in the way of PEH and Lemina in the middle while they're trying to protect the back four. But the far bigger problem isn't the stuff on the pitch or the touchline, as bad as it is. There are few sides even on City's planet, never mind at our end of the table. The owners and Ralph know SFA about football, so Reed has them completely by the nuts. Even if they knew that he was the problem, they'd have no idea what to do about it. They need to start meeting with some football people who can tell them what everyone else knows because it's been clearly apparent for two or three years. If you have to keep changing managers, and keep seeing expensive signings sitting on the bench, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that it's time to look one level up from the manager.

I just don't understand why Hughes ditched the Redmond/Bertrand partnership down the left. It was the only reliably creative area we had.

Today we fulfilled the promise shown against Everton and Leicester. Tough to pick a MoM but PEH edges it for me. Cedric, who has cost us points with lack of height and aerial ineptitude, and has failed to impress going forward, was good at both ends. I was fearful when Austin came on because Long had contributed so much up front, and Austin will never make that kind of contribution. But if Austin's going to flub a chance from three yards out (I think it was him), and then miss a penalty, he shouldn't even be on the bench. If he's not bringing scoring there's not much else. For me an ongoing problem is the lack of a "reader" at the back. Vestergaard and Hoedt are reactors, and not very fast reactors at that - a dangerous combo. It was ridiculous when Cedric was left alone with Benteke on an early high ball, and he was rightly pi**ed. The sooner Yoshida is match fit the better, but it's starting to look as though there's something else going on with him.

Okay, I get that results are everything but I'm seeing more positives than negatives - certainly compared with last season. Players seem much more role-aware and engaged, and we've been moving the ball around quite well. The football is much better on the eye. It's not like we have the wall-to-wall problems of last year. For me it's just central defence and RB. I'd like to see Stephens on the right - he doesn't give a lot in the forward third but nor does Cedric these days, and he's much better defensively, especially in the air. And I'd like to see Yoshida partnering Vestergaard. Hughes's regard for Austin will decline when he realizes how little he contributes outside the box - and these days inside it as well. We played well and could easily have picked up a point at Everton, the Cedric/Hoedt issues (and PEH's stupidity) cost us at least a point yesterday and probably all three. Yoshida and Gabby might well have been starting yesterday but it sounds like they had injury issues, so for all we know Hughes might not have been able to field his preferred line up. The underwhelming Burnley draw I'll put down to first game against a team that had played several games. So the point we have could easily be 4, 5 or even 7.

I don't get the freaking out - even though we lost. There was a fair bit to like about our performance today, especially down the left with Bertrand and Redmond. Lemina was excellent, and PEH was good until his brain f*rt. But Cedric is a bigger liability than Hoedt. He gives us very little going forward, which has long been the case, and all we're left with is his defensive 'contribution' - consistently getting done in the air for goals. Still trying to figure out why Yoshida is so poorly regarded. He's the kind of defender who makes the big guys look better than they really are, and we really need him back there.

Everton have a Top 8 squad, so the result was neither bad nor unexpected. The original game plan went down the sh*tter with Vestergaard's illness, but Hughes's Mistake #1 was pairing Stephens and Hoedt, and leaving Yoshida on the bench. That contributed to a(nother) poor first half. Yet again, Cedric gets done like a kipper on a ball that wasn't even that high, and by a guy hardly known for his aerial prowess. Hughes really, really needs to start Yoshida, or these problems will continue. After that first half I thought we did okay, although the 'distribution' from the two CBs consisted of inaccurate hoofing. Playing it out from the back with those two paired together just ain't gonna happen. Hughes's Mistake #2 was putting Long on ahead of Gabbiadini, which created Mistake #3 - trying to play with three up when Everton just wanted to play ball retention. If he'd used that first sub on Gabby we could easily have got something. There were positives for those willing to see them. We weren't playing away to a bottom half side.

We're still trying to dig ourselves out of the huge hole created by signing several "all talent, no temperament" players, so it would defy belief if we were to do it again. If Hughes couldn't handle Boufal, he won't succeed with Ben Arfa, and I don't think he'd relish being expected to spend time on it.

If the players aren't committed (or suited) to three at the back, that won't have changed after Sunday. Some of its suitability depends on which Romeu and which Lemina turns up (which is unpredictable), but much of it depends on mobility (which is why playing both Vestergaard and Hoedt is very risky, and why Yoshida's game reading and mobility are so important). Height and mobility is a very expensive package in today's game, and our budget probably only gets us one or the other. Like others, I got the feeling from Hughes' post-game comments that he's very fond of three at the back and keen to persist with it. In fairness to him, it's hard to read when Sunday's transformation probably had more to do with what we were doing up front than what we were doing at the back.

Cedric was a real problem defensively last year, especially with high balls at the far post, but he added something in the forward third and was quick getting back when things broke down. I'd be okay with Stephens replacing Cedric, but he lacks ideas up there (he can improve) and doesn't get back as quickly (unlikely to change). I'd like to see Stephens get a run in the wide role but only if Yoshida is playing alongside Vestergaard, where he can provide Stephens some cover. Hoedt is a liability in pretty much any format.

Great learning experience for Hughes. He has both a bottom four and a top ten squad. Le's hope he's taken the lessons on board.

Looking at those different permutations, and bearing in mind that we have a manager that doesn't tolerate slackers, we actually have a tidy little squad.

We probably still have some powder dry for January. My hunch is that we were after Wellbeck but our inability to shift Forster & Co put the kibosh on it for salary budget or transfer kitty reasons. That forced us into a late deal for Ings because the club knew we had to do something up front. Not ideal but nowhere near the sh*tshow some are suggesting.

Sad to hear - he was a real club man and a leader who gave total commitment himself and expected it from those around him. He'd probably have pinned a few of the current lot against the dressing room wall. He managed Basingstoke in the Southern League for a while, and was always very friendly - after the match. I think his goal against Swindon came from about 40-50 yards out, and he didn't know what to do when everyone ran towards him.

I really don't get this fetish for height at the back, especially if we're planning on playing three there. On our transfer fee budget, height comes at the expense of mobility, and mobility is more important than height in today's PL. We bought Forster for his height (there's not much else in his tool kit) and we're doing it with CBs. We badly need a mobile reader back there, and I'm really hoping that Yoshida is going to step up to the role. We also need our DMs to be much more effective in front of the back line. They seem so slow to sense danger.

He had the same failings with Celtic that he exhibited with us, but they were seldom exposed enough for people to suss him. I'll never understand how he came to be so highly regarded - probably part of the "height-over-technique" orgy that developed around keepers. I didn't want us to sign him, and the contract extensions were beyond crazy.

It's certainly not a panacea. While it's great to get a chance to revisit controversial incidents, VAR will really slow the game down (as it has over here in NA) - especially if there's a clamour to expand the range of incidents reviewed. Even with VAR the crap that goes on in the box is still a lottery - sometimes punished, often not. The Mitrovic incident and the yellow for the head-butt on Henderson were beyond laughable. But the most frustrating thing is that Fifa still doesn't have a clear idea of what constitutes handball. The old adage of "hand to ball, not ball to hand" was workable, but that's long gone. If anything, the World Cup has made things even more confusing, so VAR won't help much with that.