david in sweden

good to hear it, you must have seen more of him than I did. After he came on, he hardly appreared on the TV showing......

1- Agree totally, I ask myself why Koeman ..and even Poch. used him at RB. My only conclusion was that he had most experience. ....but he lacks pace and is much better in a CB role.... 2- before everyone condemns Cedric (yes and even Marina) it should be remembered that Clyne was abysmal at the start of his first season...we shipped goals in every game, some clearly his fault and he was really out of his depth for quite a while before he " settled in ". Cedric deserves the same chance. 3- I'm never too quick to condemn players in their first season. I recall one or two "names" on this site who likened Mane ...to Ali Dia :lol:in his early season appearances.

Nice !..but I suppose it's more important if such a player was on RK's wish list.

I agree absolutely, but it doesn't mean that he's a total waste of space, but giving someone a 20 mins. sub app. a few times a season isn't the best way to bring him on.

Strange but one of the best memories I have of Mick ....was from a Reserve game at the end of the 1964-65 season - even before he'd made his first team debut. Last game of season v. Leyton Orient Reserves at the Dell. Orient fielded their record scoring striker David Dunmore, who rattled in a hat-trick before half time. 0-3. The Reserve did their famous comeback act in the second half with Mick scoring twice. The equalising 3rd goal saw him charging into the box from the left wing, before hammering the ball home, then comes the "windmilling arm", with the ecstatic Channon continuing his run across the box and up over the wall by the players entrance. I know he's scored a record number after that, but I doubt that he ever celebrated a goal like that one. Sadly today- he'd be yellow-carded for " excessive celebration ".

Thanks for the compliment CB.... I knew there must be some things we agreed on...

.........was that before or after he got a bang in the face and bled all over the pitch? . I thought he DAJFU.. and better than some others...despite all else.

and of course a Cup win....would guarantee Europa League next season..without having to fight for a top five /six place.

Agreed but the young David Beckham only got good reviews when he scored spectacular goals, in between he was often dross, and in his first 20 or so England games he was a total waste of space. Agreed also that JWP is lacking "something" in his game....now it's upto him to find it. maybe like Steven Davis, if he scores a few goals....people will get off his back and stop criticising him. Must be stressful to go through games without scoring.

From several other recent threads, it's good to see interest in the U21 prospects - even though many fans bemoan the lack of new talent coming through. There are several factors, not least that in the past 7-8 years we've somehow got used to expecting a new " starlet " to break into the first team with success. We all know the list by now.. First Walcott and then Bale. Lallana established himself in the side, then came Surman and Dyer (sold in the battle to maintain liquidity during the 2009 bankruptcy) then, Alex O-C....Shaw and Chambers....and the fact is that....had these players still been at SMS.....we'd have a great side. Of course, " economics " won the day and in the end, it was our loss (on the pitch) when they finally moved on.....to richer pastures. So who's next?...WAIT !....the reality is that not every season automatically produces another Gareth Bale or Luke Shaw...... as so it is just now. Most likely prospects; Turnbull, Stephens and McCarthy are already out on loan getting valuable experience, albeit at a lower level but still way above U21. Those of us who watch the video clips of U18/U21 games on YouTube are used to the up-and-coming names, but it's also obvious that many of the " next generation " are still quite young, and not Prem. class material -YET. The U18 side (that lost at Fulham yesterday) contained names like Slattery, Willard and Wilkin who have already had game time at U21 level this season. One of the key factors in the lack of new young faces on the the bench is ..the Fixture list. Whilst the fledgling U18's have played 16 games so far this season, the U21 side has played ..just 7 and had only one fixture since the end of September. The immediate future isn't much better. One game on Monday, but only two more ....before Janaury 11th 2016. There are (apparantly) several reasons governing this (won't go into here), but it's no wonder that these lads aren't given the chance even to show off their talents at their own level - let alone be considered for a first team place. They (and we) will need to be patient... a while longer.

I agree with your (and others) comments about Yoshida's unsuitability as RB....he has had some of his better games at CB (not much chance now with VvD here.) -but I don't think that Koeman lacks faith in Cedric. Yes he's new to the Prem. I think he's improving fast, but last weekend he took another whack in the head and once again spilt blood for the cause. There's reason for concern that it was the same eye as before that took the elbow, and maybe hasn't healed properly yet. If he endures such an injury again....his eyebrows may become as bad as Henry Cooper's. Looking at alternatives...Yoshida is the most experienced defender we have, (but it was a chance given prev. comment about Yoshida at RB). I wouldn't have played Martina in this particular game, and the inclusion of Romeu suggested RK planned for a defensive set-up from the start. IMHO - We have no other alternatives just now. Caulker came on for Fonte and DAJFU -but he's certainly no full back, and only Jason McCarthy might had a look-in (had he already not been out on loan at Wycombe). I think Koeman picked a good side ... on paper...the problem was on the pitch.

I don't disagree Duncan....BUT IMHO whoever produces the history of The Pochettino Phenomena really ought to check the facts before they start to write. We should put aside the last part of Poch's 8 game first Prem. season. as he continued to play the Adkins start side,and (it should be noted that Adkins had already introduced young players like; Reeves, Hoskins and Isgrove in our Championship season, as well as using Chambers, Isgrove and Shaw in various Cup games before. The early season introduction of Calum Chambers was forced upon him, when Clyne was injured pre-season and Danny Butterfield had already departed the club. It was ideal for Chambers who had previously found it difficult to tie down a regular midfield spot in the U21's,and his later move to Arsenal was a win-win situation. Luke Shaw had made 13 match starts(under Adkins) - before Poch.appeared, and his form was such that choosing him ahead of Danny Fox was a no-brainer. The appearance of Jake Sinclair, Oscar Rowe and Harrison Reed on the bench was (by tradition) only in cup matches, but with the resulting loss at Sunderland was considered by many to be a Grade A1 c*ck-up. Rarely were any of these lads on the bench and only Reed and Gallagher made even one more regular start. Sam Gallagher had game time, but the most of those as a sub. and then only because of Rickie Lambert rare injuries and later in the trail of the incredibly-expensive Osvaldo fiasco, and the later catastrophic injury to JayRod, and Sam played out the last 3 Prem. games, but without scoring. Poch's up-tempo style drew a lot more attention when we gate-crashed the Prem's top 10, but it has to be said that the later rash of international debuts was as much to do with the overall team performances than the individuals themselves. Rickie Lambert's short, but memorable, England career was straight out of a Hollywood script, and Lallana and Rodrigues qualified themselves in after a concerted spell of excellent games which coincided with a drought of talent in the England squad. For the media hack who wrote that Poch had been responsible for creating all these new international careers is nonsense, as that was Roy Hodgson initiative, who by selecting them in the first place - side-stepped any possible media criticism by selecting them in the first place - thereby allowing the same media to degrade their poorer performances when they failed to live upto expectations. The latest successes (at Spurs) have only furthered Poch's reputation but some may view the fact that the successes of Kane and Mason (at Spurs) was a last gasp effort to re-vitalise a very ordinary Spurs' side that he inherited that was over-populated by a poor squad bought with the inheritance they got from the Bale transfer. Fortunately for Poch - it worked, but getting back to the OP...it should be noted that both Mason and Kane had extensive loan experience before they could force their way into the reckoning. (Kane 56 games and 14 goals with 4 clubs, (plus) 34 games for Eng U17-U21, and Mason had 5 loanouts totalling over 70 apps). Whoever it is; Reed, Seager, Gallagher or Gape.....it will be hard for them to break into the first team squad without game-time at "another level "...even L1., unless. as in the past, they are brought in to play in emergencies sitautions and suddenly make it.... " big time ".

Absolutely! I agree with every word. These things go in phases and just now, there is no-one from U21's who is anywhere near threatening a place in the first team line-up.

I hope so. Getting a youngster through the ranks to become a good, regular CB has been one of the hardest challenges for the Academy since its inception.

Micky Evans made 22 apps. which included 4 vital goals....that saved us from relegation, although Billy Sharp's 17 apps. and 9 goals ....gave us promotion. Some times even the " bit players " have played an important role in our history.....and not to forget Marian Pahars contribution, too.

Chris Nicholl - following McMenemy was like following the Lord Mayor 's Show. He was on a hiding to nothing, but DAJFU and gave us some exciting goalscorers. Strachan pulled us out of the mire and got us to a Cup Final (pity he played the wrong formation), Hoddle much the same - but without the Cup Final appearance. My vote is for Alan Pardew who, even for the short length of his tenure brought Fonte and Lambert, started with -10 points and finished with a happy day at Wembley. Nigel Adkins 2nd prize - for taking Pardew's team and streamlining it through two divisions, but Pochettino's "success " was an up-the-tempo version of Adkins' side. Ronald Koeman is positive and likeable, but both he (and a lot of our fans) will be happier if we achieve " something big " - by the end of next season.

....you mean because Bates and McMenemy managed the club for 31 years between them ! This is more of a game for youngsters who can't play the Generation Game.

In some ways this will be a barometer of our progress /or lack of it. Man.City have dipped a little of late, but even without Hart and Kompany they are still a strong outfit. OK we have Pelle out, and there was a comment about Mane carrying an "unspecified injury"......so it down to Shane Long to DAJFU big time , and see which other striker comes off the bench for us. Citeh have Aguro still recovering from injury,and De Bruyne has looked dangerous in recent games.Sterling looks a better player than he did at Liverpool. If there was ever a time we needed a clean sheet today is that test, and see if we can pick up all 3 points by scoring some of the very few chances we are likely to get.

well I have some fairly accurate stats. om that ......and I make it that Sam Gallagher had game time in 20 matches. However, as you pointed out ....it only sounds impressive. He was selected to start in just 2 games mid-season, and also in the last 3 of that season. In the Cup game v.Yeovil he scored 2nd goal we won 2-0,....and he started Prem. game v. Arsenal. His other was a 97th minute goal v.Norwich we won 4-2. but didn't score anymore in his remaining apps.. The bulk of the "appearances" were ; 8 times as 3rd sub, 4 times as 2nd sub.and 3 times as 1st sub.on = 15 times as sub. and 5 as first choice. It's more than any other lad of his generation, (considering that at least 6 others U21's had " some game time " albeit, only in one or two games. JWP, of course, has (I think) now topped 100 apps.?.... and has been around since 2012. A lot of happened since , including a protracted period out injured. The 15.(or 20 apps.)referred to looks good for his age greoup, but not being in the first team squad and being out on loan (and then not being played) is a backward step...and in some ways we ought to put the clock back to zero - if we are measuring his progress.

anyway.......back to Dominic Gape.... he has progressed through the ranks since 16, and in the beginning I read (somewhere) that he was a top-rated Club cricketer before deciding on football as a career. He has good leadership qualities, and is U21 captain. As memory serves... I can't say that every team captain we have had was always the star player....and although he looks dependable in clips of U21 games...... one can hardly say he was outstanding - no matter. Players "develop" at certain stages and that point in time cannot be related purely to their birth certificate. It's a lot to do opportunities and staying injury free. Several of our promising young stars, have had periods out injured and as seen with the likes of Mc Queen and Seager, you don't come back at the top of your game.. In the past the Academy did well in developing left-sided players (with an attacking flair)....when we see the careers of Wayne Bridge, Gareth Bale and Luke Shaw. At present, Matt Targett is next in line, but will find it harder to get past Ryan Bertrand...... than Luke Shaw did to replace Danny Fox. That means it all down to " opportunity ". Gape (as a midfielder) may find it equally difficult to make a first team breakthough ....as Targett has ...in his position. Dom Gape may indeed come on in the next season or two, but he must have another class of football to improve himself - if he is to break into the first team squad.

.this would surely alert those " big clubs " to come bidding for his signature ASAP.....suggest £15 million starting price.:smug:

...which beggars the question .....why did St.Lej bother to write the OP in the first place?

I agree Vectis, but there are other factors. Former players like Chambers got their chances because (in his case Clyne was injured in the pre-season) and he DAJFU quite well and even came back later in the season in another emergency. Shaw was outstanding even at an early age, and tbf....Fox's performance level meant he didn't have to try so hard to get the No.3 shirt. Most of the other Pochettino " finds "were brought in injury crises, and of course Cup games (which is partly why we lost Cup games like Sunderland ! You can bring in one or two youngsters and hope they fit in, but half of team of U21 lads, playing any sort of lower opposition isn't be a guarantee of success. ( even Man U's second string weren't good enough to beat L1 opposition in a Cup game last season). Pochettino's "prodigies" both at SMS (and in part at Spurs) were moves forced on him by injury / regular player's lack of form. It worked at WHL, not so well at SMS. The fact remains that those U21 players who came in....for the odd game ...didn't improve the team performances that much, or (in most cases) the eventual results. It was good to see them get game-time, but today, very few - if any - who are near good enough to replace the incumbents in the first team...in the longer term. As this thread is entitled Dominic Gape, although promising ..he doesn't look anything like first team material (today) and if the likes of Turnbull and Stephens can go out on loan, then both Gape and Harrison Reed ought to be getting game time (at some level ) every weekend, if they have pretensions to Saints' first team line-up.

also a good indication as to exactly how much it cost to sign / and keep a player on the books , and we must consider that the fee paid for Cedric was fairly modest considering what we have paid out for others in recent years....but of course... this does not include the cost of paying the player's wages plus N.I. contributions, etc.... over the next 4 years. In view of this enlightening disclosure ......I just hope that no-one "blows the whistle " on the contract that Cortese OK'd for Osvaldo (at Pochettino's behest) I thnk that reading that would might me ill.....(or extremely bl**dy angry)..

Oh well... I'm glad they told us, otherwise we would never have known .......