SaintJackoInHurworth

To play Onuachu as an old fashioned centre forward would require Selles to adopt a very un-Spanish way of playing with wide wing play. His decision to not use Edozie is a clear demonstration that that is not his preference. Personally, I would love us to explore this as an option - even if only as a plan B. If we played this way we could utilise Sulemana and Edozie together with the wing backs to create openings to cross to Onuachu in the centre. On the other hand, I also think we could explore using Dom Ballard. He is good at creating and finding space in front of goal and would be a bit of an unknown entity for opposing teams. We certainly need to explore some alternative striking options. Always doing the same thing is not going to deliver anything different!!

I think the original post is spot on. In most positions we are better now with the exception of striker and possibly keeper. I agree too that we were unfortunate in some ways to go down in 2005. This season we are not, in my opinion, one of the three worst sides. As some have said, some key disastrous results and the managerial changes (especially the appointment of Jones) are among the factors that have left us staring down the barrel of the gun of relegation. Of course, not purchasing a decent striker has been a huge factor. One interesting comparison between the two is that in 2005 most people thought we could/would escape until we didn't. This year it seems that most believe we cannot stay up and logically that is the most expected outcome. Nevertheless, the closeness of the competition this year may still give us some hope if we can beat Palace this weekend - especially with the form of Leicester and Forest and Everton's next few fixtures. Not that I am for a moment suggesting we will stay up!!

I am not sure as many will definitely leave as some think. Here are a few thoughts: Highly likely to leave for a decent transfer fee JWP He will be in massive demand and will want to be playing in the Premier League in order to stand a chance of getting into the England squad in 2024. KWP Like JWP he will want to play in the EPL and will want to try to impress Southgate to get in the England squad. Adams He has been mentioned by a number of pundits as someone who they think is a decent striker and we have seen some interest in signing him in previous seasons. Even though he is not really a PL quality striker I can imagine someone will take a punt on him and with the right fee he may well leave. Tella Burnley are bound to want to keep him and he is bound to want to stay with them. I don't think we will stand in his way. May leave but may not ABK Has he done enough to attract attention of other PL clubs? What about his tendency to get injured? Will Saints let him go when we only signed him last summer? We could demand a fairly large fee and will other clubs be prepared to pay that? Lavia Of course there will be a lot of speculation about him and a lot of interest and no doubt he will be interested in pursuing those opportunities, but there must be questions around the buy-back clause with City - does that have to be included in any deal to sell him? Also, is there some possibility that Lavia may want to wait until 2024 to get his chance to return to City? Or might Saints prefer to wait and see if the opportunity to sell him back to City for a large fee may materialise? I expect he will go but there may be some significant reasons to doubt it. Salisu Is he rated highly enough by other clubs to buy him after a season when he has not set the world alight? Will they be prepared to pay enough for Saints to allow him to go? Unlikely to leave Alcaraz/Sulemana/Onuachu/Mara/Edozie Whatever promise they may have I don't think any of them have done quite enough to warrant another PL seeking to buy them for anything higher than what we paid for them. They are young and will improve and could do well in the Championship, so I think we will seek to keep them and seek to yield a profit from them in the future as that is our model, like it or not. The most likely to leave of this lot is probably Alcaraz but only if we get back what we paid for him or at least close to that. Livramento No club will take a risk on a player that he been out injured for more than a year. Summer Challenges Trimming down the squad, particularly by getting rid of the fringe players. It is a no-brainer that there will be some who we will want to move on, but will we be able to do so? Replacing JWP - especially if Lavia is also sold. Smallbone could be brought back but is that enough? Even in the Championship a central midfield of Smallbone and Diallo (if he stays) would not give me huge confidence! Will we rely on the current squad or seek to sign a striker? Will we seek to promote Ballard, Payne, Dibling, Amo-Ameyaw, Doyle or any others to the first team? (Personally I suspect Ballard is the only one that is close to being ready to make that step, but who knows?) Finding a manager who can lead us straight back up.

In the real world everyone recognises we have absolutely no chance of getting anything from today's match... except that a battling performance, low scoreline and maybe even a goal could all give us some encouragement for the remaining fixtures. Of course, every now and then a side near the bottom will pull of a surprise result against a top team and I'm sure we all hope and dream that today might be that day for us - even if in our heart of hearts we all know it won't happen! Nevertheless, the dream is nice!!! What is perhaps slightly more significant on a day like today is what will happen in the other matches. If other teams around us also do badly, a narrow defeat against City won't be the end of the world. Whereas if the teams with whom we are competing to avoid relegation get good results and we get hammered the despondency around Saints will grow and the task will seem even more impossible. Hopefully, other results will go our way: Man Utd must surely beat Everton - I say it will be 2-0. Villa are on form, Forest dropping like a stone so that won must surely end in a big win for Villa - I say 3-0 to Villa. Fulham v West Ham is much less clear-cut with Fulham's form dipping while West Ham's win against us gave them hope (that was fortunately smashed away by their midweek defeat) - I predict 1-1 but a win for Fulham would be great. Leicester v Bournemouth is obviously of major interest and I fear we don't want either club to gain any confidence from it. A 0-0 draw with dodgy defending, poor finishing and crowd discontent from both sets of supporters would be great. I'm not sure it will be quite as a good an outcome as that but a 1-1 draw seems a realistic result. Wolves v Chelsea is hard to predict but hopefully Chelsea will demonstrate a new manager bounce and perform for Lampard. I'm going for 1-2 to Chelsea. With all those scorelines, we could go into our game against City knowing that whatever the result we will not be set adrift... at least not yet!

I can't believe there are people on here defending Jones!! It makes you wonder who some of the people who post on Saintsweb are and what agenda they have!! I'm not for a moment saying that Saints haves set the world alight under Selles, but at least we are now showing the semblance of a team that can compete at this level! With Jones we would just about be already relegated! Like others have said, real, meaningful stats and fantasy stats like xG are very different. If you prefer the fantasy variety, go back to playing Football Manager derivative games where you can dream of a side containing all your favourites from other clubs!

I've just got a few comments to make... I don't think West Ham v Saints is exactly a MUST-WIN game in the big scheme of things - at least it is not any more important or winnable than any other games. On the other hand, however, a win would be massive! If we go down we won't suddenly be in some amazing dream scenario where we are one of the dominant teams in the Championship winning most of our games. The fact is that we will lose a lot of significant players as well as a lot of other staff; the club will find itself reeling from the impact and confronted by a post-relegation wave of depression. It will take time to turn that around. Relegation does not guaranteea glorious winning season next year! I don't accept that relegation is a foregone conclusion; we are one of the form teams in the bottom half of the table (especially in terms of the past six league fixtures) and our fixtures are no more difficult than those faced by Bournemouth, Forest, Everton, Leeds and even West Ham. Crystal Palace have got the easiest run of fixtures on paper, but they also have the worst form and have just sacked a manager who some believe has equipped them to perform beyond their true capabilities. Matches against relegation-threatened teams are also not necessarily the easiest fixtures at this time of year. An ideal fixture would be one against a team who have no threat of relegation and no hope of Europe. No-one is yet in that category with European football still a possibility for Villa, Chelsea, Fulham and Brentford and not just the teams above them.

I think you may find that the number of points required for safety may be a bit less than usual this year while the bottom club may have a little bit more than normal and the gap between clubs could be less than normal too (as it is at present). Also, it is worth looking at the fixtures of our competitors too. While some may not see any way we can get 14/15 points, I think the same can be said for some of our fellow relegation rivals and I actually think the team with the worst fixtures is Everton Including my forecast results): Spurs (H) 1-2 Man Utd (A) 0-2 Chelsea (A) 1-2 Palace (A) 1-2 Newcastle (H) 1-1 Leicester (A) 0-1 Brighton (A) 1-2 Man City (H) 0-2 Wolves (A) 1-1 Bompey (H) 2-0 Total Points = 5 Current Points = 26 Total Points = 31 pts Meanwhile, these are the Bournemouth fixtures: Fulham (H) Brighton (H) Leicester (A) Spurs (A) West Ham (H) Saints (A) Leeds (H) Chelsea (H) Palace (A) Man Utd (H) Everton (A) I can't see them staying up with that lot! I think they will get about 6 poiunts and end up with a total of about 30 points. Finally, Forest will also struggle with these fixtures: Wolves (H) Leeds (A) Villa (A) Man Utd (H) Liverpool (A) Brighton (H) Brentford (A) Saints (H) Chelsea (A) Arsenal (H) Palace (A) I reckon that will yield about 5 points leaving them with 31 points. On this basis we would only need about 32-36 points to stay up, which I think is more than possible.

Clearly my opening post was too long and complicated - especially after another frustrating defeat with a complete lack of penetration in freont of goal!! Here's a summary: Systems of play have their place but they are not enough and they lead to selecting the players who fit the system rather than players who will create goals but who don't always fit well within rigid systems. I think this is why so many creative players have failed at Saints and why we are so starved of creativity. Edozie is just the latest creative, attacking player to have been dropped by a Saints manager and I suspect it is because he is not a system player but a player who brings variety and creativity.... but when our approach is governed almost solely by a rigid system these sorts of players are not allowed the freedom to flourish and deliver.

So, is it too early or too late to analyse what has gone wrong? I know there are many, many answers to the question, not least the failure to sign a decent striker, but are there more fundamental issues with the way we play too? Why is it that so few players seem capable of scoring, let alone the strikers? I think the problem is that Ralph became convinced that the priority was playing a system and therefore the way to play was to find the players that would implement that system to the letter. When that worked it was good but more and more teams found us out. Selles has been schooled in that approach and so players that don't fit the system won't get selected and the system is largely built around players who will work hard and press for long periods of time. That means that Edozie doesn't get selected as he doesn't fit that system whereas Diallo and Elyounoussi do get selected because they follow the system in training. But, while I am all for discipline and patterns of passing (which Jones had absolutely no clue about) there has also got to be space for creativity and variety too. Systems work in keeping goals conceded down and in maintaining possession, getting goals needs creativity and trying new things. What I am trying to say is this: Yes, we need to have a system of play and we need players to have a high work-rate, but those things alone are not enough just as Jones approach of having absolutely no system and insisting we just had to be aggressive was also rubbish! The fact is we need to have systems; we need to have a good work-rate. Hassenhuttl and Selles are both right in wanting those - but in themselves they are NOT ENOUGH! On the other hand we need more aggression and Jones was right about that even if the side demonstrated a total lack of any aggression under him! But what about creativity? What about variety? What about game management? What about passing? What about shooting? What about creating chances? What about through balls? What about working the ref? What about oneupmanship? (E.g. Newcastle and other clubs don't put away fans behind the goal or next to the pitch; other clubs provide poor changing facilities; others keep the opponents waiting on the pitch at half time.. and so on...!) We need all of these things, but we fail to see so many of them and so we become easy to predict and easy to beat. I was a fan of Ralph, but maybe in these things we can find clues about what his approach lacked and what we also lack at present with Selles. Maybe that is why managers who play anti-football like Big Sam and Pulis and a number of others seem to have so much success.

Thanks for the comments so far... as I said in my OP, I'm not trying to suggest in any way that there is anything other than a huge likelihood that we are going down... But, hey, I will continue to clutch at whatever straws I can until it really is impossible! Sooooo... To throw some more alternative universe straws of comfort in there on the obvious glaring issue of goals, which some have rightfully highlighted as a major problem for us (not helped by Onuachu looking pretty inept so far)... What if... Sulemena shows that only that he is fast but also he quickly (i.e. this week) responds to coaching and gets to grips with both the pressing game and where and how he is best to position himself within the Selles-Saints system so that he begins to get success in both scoring and creating goals. Onuachu also gets to grips with this and the squad begin to see the best way to get crosses to him for attempts on target and for knock-downs which others can feed off. (NB I won't suggest the total fantasy option (for now) that Onuachu might actually develop a speed across the ground that would enable him to be better at pressing and running in on-goal - sadly that is not going to be his strength without a summer of training at least - if ever!) Ballard or Dibling get their chance against Grimsby and prove that they can take (maybe rediscover in Dibling's case) their goal scoring form from the B Team and replicate it with the first team. Edozie comes back in and alongside Sulemena is able to terrorise defences and provides not just dribbling ability but also telling final balls which lead to goals; what if he/they also manage to draw fouls which open up loads more chances for Ward-Prowse free kicks. Selles is able to work with Ward-Prowse in training to establish variety in corners which leads to more goal attempts and (crucially) goals. Selles realises that for all his hard work Elyounoussi offers little to the side and is the weakest of a large range of options (again, no fantasy options of Elyounoussi suddenly becoming a quality player here!) Selles drops AMN and starts with Perrraud and KWP and also gets them to work on the training ground at once again building patterns of quality attacking play down the wing in combination with other players - especially our wingers - the type of play we know that they are capable of; what if they are also able to combine that with developing a better understanding with those players and with the striker(s) to improve their final balls to be more incisive and productive, leading to goals. OK... hopefully you get the drift - while we are never going to see all of those happening between now and next week, maybe, just maybe, there is some hope that progress can be made in at least some of these soon in a way that may give us some faint hope of staying up.

They say it's the hope that kills you and I know what they mean, but let's be honest they (whoever 'they' are) are wrong!! It's the lack of hope that kills you - and the continual, repeated, destruction of hope that cuts like a proverbial dagger to the heart! Today's result strikes like a death knoll to our hopes of staying up in the Premier League and even the most optimistic of Saints' fans must surely now accept that relegation is highly probable. BUT ENOUGH OF THAT DEPRESSING REALITY...! WHERE IS THE HOPE?!!!!!! Let me (yeah, I probably am that most optimistic of fans that I just referenced above!) try to share some feint, almost fantasy-world-like glimmers of a possible alternative universe where somehow things from here on in might inexplicably and extraordinarily improve...! What if..... Over the next week the resukts involving the clubs at the bottom look like this... Arsenal 3 Everton 0 Liverpool 2 Wolves 0 Arsenal 4 Bournemouth 0 Brighton 2 West Ham 0 Chelsea 2 Leeds 0 Wolves 0 Spurs 2 Saints 2 Leicester 0 Forest 0 Everton 0 (or maybe Forest 1 Everton 0) Those scores are certainly not inconceivable and they could be the start of a turn-around... We would find ourselves off the bottom and once again starting to look upwards.... and that is just next week's results....! What, I suppose I am trying to say is this: Yes, it looks likley that we are going down, but let's keep hoping, keep supporting and maybe, just maybe, we might find ourselves in that surprising alternative universe where actually we might, somehow, stay up!

So, according to what I have read above Bednarek does worst when he partners Salisu, yet some of you are suggesting that our best partnership is Salisu and ABK. Also, ABK is better with an experienced partner and again Salisu is being touted as that guy! What about DCC? Surely he is a better and more experienced partner for ABK?!

It's notable that Che Adams, Romeo Lavia and Ainsley Maitland-Niles are missing from the training pictures but good to see Dom Ballard there. While I am hoping that Lavia will be fit to play, I susepct his omission from training would suggest he won't play on Saturday. I would therefore suggest that if those three are unavailable then our line up should/could be as follows: Bazunu KWP ABK DCC Perraud JWP Alcaraz S. Armstrong Sulemana Edozie Onuachu Formation: 4-2-1-2-1 flexible into a 4-2-1-3 or 4-2-3-1 or 4-1-2-3 or 4-2-2-2 formation!! (Or maybe even more variations if the full backs play as wing backs!!) Subs: Caballero/McCarthy, Salisu, Bree/Lyanco, Diallo, Orsic, Armstrong/Elyounoussi, Mara, Aribo, Ballard (assuming a full set of 9 subs) It's actually really hard to work out who is going to miss out. I have suggested Bednarek and Djenepo will miss out, but potentially they could be in the squad and someone else could miss out. I've put Diallo in as he is the only other central midfield cover if Lavia is injured, though Elyounoussi could cover there. Will Bree be on the bench as he is the cover full back.. or will Salisu and/or Lyanco provide cover for that position? Surely we would be likely to have at least two defenders on the bench? Then in attacking midfield we are also spoilt for options and surely can't pick all of them! I reckon Orsic must be given his chance now, but what about Armstrong, Elyounoussi, Mara and Aribo? And if Che is injured will we just rely on Mara and/or Armstrong as cover or will we give Ballard his chance as I am suggesting?

It is interesting to look at the gallery pictures from training yesterday and today. It is interesting to note who was and wasn't in those pictures... Coaches - Selles was assisted by Martin, Gross and Sparkes as you might expect. Interesting to see Dave Horseman working with the first team too. There are maybe a few others but the pictures are too blurry to work out who. There is one interesting picture yesterday of a guy with bald head and reddish beard - no idea who he is! Players present - most of the squad seem to be fully involved in training including Duje Caleta-Car, Armel Bella-Kotchap, Kyle Walker Peters and Alex McCarthy, so presumably any injuries those players have had are no longer preventing them from being involved in training. Youth Players - Dom Ballard and Ollie Wright were both involved, so it's good to see that they are continuing their development. If Adams is injured (see below) I wonder if Ballard might get a chance to come on as a sub on Saturday. Players missing - As well as Livramento and Larios, it is notable that Che Adams, Romeo Lavia and Ainsley Maitland-Niles are all missing from the training pictures. I am particularly concerned about the absence of Lavia.

There are now several of us who keep mentioning his name. I have not yet seen anyone suggest he would not be a good option, so I find it strange he has not been mentioned as an option that we are actively exploring. Of course, there may be good reasons why he is not being considered (or maybe he IS under consideration!). My concern is that the club maybe steering clear out of some misguided fear about how the fanbase might respond to a manager without Premier League experience following the negative reaction to Nathan Jones.

So, how come we have not heard any news of the club approaching Thorup? Do you think maybe they have spoken informally to him and he has said that he is not interested? Or might it be that the club are scared of approaching a manager with no Premier League experience after what happened when they appointed Jones? Personally, I think the lack of Premier League experience is less significant than his tactical nous. If he is the sort of manager that plays a high-pressing, fast-countering game and who already knows Selles then wouldn't he be an ideal candidate bearing in mind his stats?

Jesse Marsch or Jess Thorup?! I am happy to get behind Marsch if we are indeed about to appoint him, but I can't say I am excited by his appointment! I am hoping that this is all based on a rumour that sprung from someone hearing the name 'Jesse' mentioned by someone on the board. I am hoping that rather than appointing Jesse Marsch the board are planning instead to appoint Jess Thorup: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jess_Thorup Jess Thorup is (I have read) known to Ankerson and has brilliant stats in terms of wins - over 50% in most of his managerial career. He is also currently without a club. Please, please, please, let our imminent appointment be Jess Thorup rather than Jesse Marsch!!!

Gallardo or Jaissle would be good, but like many of the best options, I don't know how likely it would be that we could get them to join a side facing relegation. If Saints beat Chelsea, why would we want Potter? Surely that would suggest we stick with Selles at least until the end of the season?!

It looks like I was right - Jones, Cohen and Sheehan all sacked; Selles appointed in the interim. It does beg the question who is going to help Selles with the coaching. Anyone any idea? In terms of permanent manager, Poch or Koeman would be amazing but doubt we would get them. I like the idea of Gallardo or Jaissle. Bielsa would also be a good possibility. Forget about Kompany, Corberan or Carrick - they are not going to quit a Championship club pressing for promotion to join a relegation fight!

To attempt to answer my own questions: Cohen & Sheeahn: would expect them to leave with Jones, but we shall see. First instance manager: I expect Selles. Hopefully not Allardyce, Pulis or Bruce, though I guess Allardyce could do a job. Not Bruce. Wilder..? Coaching: Potentially Horseman will help out; I guess one of Cohen and Sheehan might be kept on. Involve Walcott maybe? Permanent Manager: Selles if he keeps us up; Gallardo would be great but doubt he would come to us. Jaissle could be a good option. Championship managers: Why would they come to us if they are being successful in the Championship. Otherwise why would we want them?

There is obviously a lot of talk of sacking Nathan Jones - especially if we fail to beat Wolves today; but what will happen if and when the club do finally sack him? Will Cohen and Sheehan also get sacked with him? Who will become our manager/coach in the first instance? Selles? Horseman? If Cohen and Sheehan are sacked who will do the coaching until the club replace them? Obviously there is then the longer term question of who will become permanent manager/coach. Might Selles be an option for that position? Without wanting this to become a thread that solely discusses that issue, what options are there for our next manager/coach in the short term and long term? Might we take on a chief coach on a short term contract with the sole purpose of rescuing us from relegation? Or would we seek to make a long term appointment straight away? If we did take on a short term coach, who would be the options for that and who would we as the fans accept/reject? E.g. Would we be happy if the club appointed Pulis as coach to the end of the season? How about Chris Wilder? Allardyce? Steve Bruce? Finally, of course, there is the question of long term coach. Gallardo? Bielsa? Poch? Koeman? Nuno? Benitez? Matthias Jaissle? Kjetil Knutsen? William Still? Postecoglou? Corberan? Adkins? Hughton? Bob Bradley? Tuchel? John Terry? Steven Gerrard? Frank Lampard? Solskjaer? Or how about Ralph Hassenhuttl? Or Selles? Would it be realistic to tempt one of the Championship managers who are doing well at the moment and would we want them? FWIW, I suspect they wouldn't be interested!

Can I suggest a question or two that can be asked to the panel which couldpotentaiily be implicitly linked to the question of whether Jones should be manager or which members of the panel still think he is fit to do the job? How about: "Do the panel believe that the opinions of fans should be taken into account in making key decisions?" and/or "Which of the panel believe they are in agreement with the broad feelings of the fanbase at present and are you prepared to do anything to represent that viewpoint?"

If KWP is fit I would consider going with something a little bit different, assuming neither of our new players are ready to start just yet: Bazunu Bree ABK DCC Perraud Lavia JWP Alcaraz KWP Edozie Adams/Mara If KWP is not fit and assuming S. Armstrong is also not fit yet, I would move Edozie across and play one of Djenepo, Armstrong or Elyounoussi as the other winger (but S.Armstrong if he is fit!). I have no real preference between them: Djenepo has more flair to go past players but zero ability to make the right decisions or to make a telling pass, Elyounoussi has limited flair or ability but does work hard and similar can be said for Armstrong. In terms of subs, I would probably go with Caballero, Salisu, Orsic, Sulemana, Onuachu, Djenepo, Mara/Adams, Ballard and Diallo assuming the new signings are fit enough to be on the bench.

Interesting perspectives there. I am particularly interested in your view of Ballard and Dibling. As it happens, I went to the Middlesbrough U21 v Saints B fixture last Friday and saw the two of them play. Ballard played from the start and scored two goals; Dibling came on as a sub late in the game. I was also keeping an eye on other players to see who caught my eye. I would say that I could tell that a lot of the players had bags of potential but were clearly a long way from being ready for the first team just yet. The only player that in any way stood out was in fact Dom Ballard. His touch on the ball, technical ability and awareness seemed much better than other players and while I wouldn't say he was a dominant force in the game (he actually drifted in and out) you could tell he was one who could potentially be getting close to ready to make some appearances for the first team. Dibling on the other hand didn't have much time to do anything, but sadly didn't really show much in the few minutes that he was on the pitch, apart from one chance where he went close. That is not to judge or criticise or suggest that he doesn't have the ability of course - just that in this particular game he didn't show anything special. For me other notable players included Sam Amo-Ameyaw and Kamari Doyle; Jack Turner and Luke Pearce did ok too, so it is interesting to see that both have now gone out on loan. I also took note of Leon Pambou - though more for his immense size than for any partticular outstanding play - he is quite a unit!!

I'm still hoping we are secretly in negotiations to sign the leading scorer from Argentina's Primera Division in 2022. I won't hold my breath! I also won't say his name in case someone from another club cottons on to the idea!