badgerx16

1) Open up a browser window 2) Go to http://www.google.co.uk ( other search engines are available ) 3) type into the search bar "proportional representation systems" 4) Voila !

Which of these is democracy ? Option 1 - less than 25% of the total electorate give one party an overwhelming majority, giving them absolute, unaccountable power. It also leads to the establishment of 'safe' seats, where career politicians can entrench themselves at the front of the queue for the gravy train. Option 2 - more than 50% of the electorate are represented by a group of parties, who are forced by circumstance to work collaboratively and with full, open, scrutiny of the public.

Not with PR, HTH:)

William Vague's press statement

John Major was an 'unelected' PM for the first part of his tenure. Churchill was 'unelected' as leader in WW2.

I don't have a problem with the points you make, but why couldn't a concensus coalition, born out of a proportional system, acheive this ?

Out of curiosity, give us some examples.

Why are the only people complaining about PR the more right leaning among us ?

True, but that just means they are slightly less unpopular than the others.

The Lib-Lab pact, "Rainbow Alliance", or whatever you call it is a complete non-starter, stillborn, and should be buried quietly and swiftly ignored. ( There, does that help you ? ). However, the Tories DO NOT HAVE A MANDATE ( have you got that yet ? ). It would appear that the right wing of the blue donkey party, together with the left wing of the red donkey party, are actually the ones who are out of touch with the electorate, and wish to cling to the status quo as it gives them the best chance of obtaining disproportionate power, and hence enhanced gorging rights on the gravy train. Unless we revert to the way things worked in the strictly 2 party system of the 18th & early 19th centuries, politics in Britain has one hell of a lot of growing up to do. Why can't Westminster operate more in the fashion that the devolved legilatures do ?

The statistics disprove your argument. It's 60-40 against the Tories in England.

Well, the public have 'spoken', and look what they wanted ! The majority REJECTED DC, ( as well as rejecting GB, and even NC ). ( "You choose your leaders and place your trust As their lies put you down and their promises rust You'll see kidney machine replaced by rockets and guns And the public wants what the public gets ..............................." ) The Jam - Going Underground

+ 1 I voted tactically, because the candidate I would have supported under PR had no chance against the LAB / CON 'norm'.

Yes the BNP may get one or two seats under PR, the Greens would get more, and UKIP might even manage one ! You may even see independant 'single issue' parties gaining more credibility. That's what democracy is about. Like them or loath them, the BNP, UKIP, ( and the Tories ), are legitimate political parties, and have every right to exist and stand for election. At least that way their mandate can be tested. To misquote Voltaire "I disapprove completely of your bigotted, right-wing, hate-filled, racist agenda, but will defend to the death your right to put it to the public vote and be humiliated".

And the OVERWHELMING majority voted CONservative didn't they ? Oh, sorry, possibly not - it seems that 64% of those that voted 'rejected' them. Regardless of what DC / NC, etc., might say, has anybody yet worked out exactly what the electorate did 'say' last Thursday, ( other than a bl00dy great raspberry aimed at them all ).

[/quote=Whitey Grandad;718796] - The minimum wage The cause of massive unemployment amongst native Britons Ensuring that there is a guaranteed minimum standard of income helps to fight poverty & exploitation - 3,700 schools rebuilt or refurbished Nothing special, it happened before and it will happen in the future The scale of the work is greater than ever before - shortest NHS waiting times in history You must have a very short history The NHS has a comparatively short history, but the original statement is still a fact - three million more operations a year More than what? Than previously acheived, duh ! - over 44,000 more doctors - 90,000 more nurses - GPs open into the evenings and at weekends - free cancer prescriptions - a two-week maximum wait to see a cancer specialist ( So that's 5 points you cannot offer an argument against ? ) - over 100 new hospitals A doubling of NHS spending for a 30% improvement. The return is never 1:1, an improvement of 30% that is affordable is to be welcomed, ( mind you, I suppose youi have BUPA ) - the Winter Fuel Allowance - free TV licences and free bus passes for pensioners - the Pension Credit A massive disincentive to save for your pension or face horrendous tax bills Help for the poorest in society, do you understand how hard up some people are when stuck with the basic state pension, ( since Maggie unhitched it from index linking ) - the New Deal for the Unemployed What, more handouts? Opportunities for retraining - full-time rights for part-time workers -and less jobs for them So just let the bosses screw them over eh ( as per the minimum wage ) ? - the Social Chapter - record maternity pay - the right to paternity leave - the biggest programme of council house building for 20 years - the Disability Discrimination Act - the Racial and Religious Hatred act - the Equalities Act No comment on the above ? So we'll assume you approve :-) - the first black cabinet minister - the first Muslim minister - the first black woman minister to speak at the Commons despatch box This is really condescending. Either they are there on merit, or they have been promoted beyond their ability. No, your comment is condescending - the system has worked against them for ages. In an ideal world it should be on merit, and personally I think 'positive discrimination' in favour of one group implicitly causes a negative impact on somebody else, but this is still progress over what the "establishment" would want to preserve - civil partnerships, gay adoption, the repeal of Section 28 ( Suprised you let that one slip without comment ) - devolution: a Scottish Parliament, a Welsh Assembly, a Mayor for London What about England? I agree ( well there had to be one ) - the transformation of our great cities including Leeds, Sheffield, Birmingham, Newcastle, Bristol, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Liverpool and Manchester What transformation? Come up to Liverpool & Manchester and have a look ! - the Human Rights Act We can do without that, thank you very much. Actually no we can't, Human Rights are essential, ( the problem would seem to be the Law Courts haven't yet worked out how to interpret them ) - crime down by a third Oh, come on! Who are you kidding? Try reading the crime statistics - the handgun ban The Hungerford killings occurred under Labour. Would you take credit for them too? Already had your hand slapped over that one - domestic violence cut by two thirds and rape convictions up by half How on earth can Labour claim credit for that? Reform of the way such crimes are investigated and prosecuted ? - more police on the streets Not true On this you are probably right, it's all PCSOs :-( - the world’s first ever Climate Change Act - beating the Kyoto emissions targets Achieved nothing except generating hot air I take it you're a sceptic then ? Whether this is good or bad is coloured by your opinion of MMCC / AGW - the tripling of overseas aid - the cancelling of debt of the poorest countries - the ban on cluster bombs Take these last 3 points as OK then ? - peace in Northern Ireland HOW DARE YOU CLAIM THE CREDIT FOR THAT!!! Blair delivered, ( with the help of the NI politicians let's not forget ), on what Major started, so shouldn't claim all the credit perhaps. - Britain back in Europe’s mainstream ??????? No sign of that in Europe Where would we be with a CONservative Government ? Towing the islands across the pond towards yankee-land - free swimming for kids - free museum entry - the right to roam - banning fox hunting - the Olympics for London 5 more without question - half a million children out of poverty ********, there is no such thing as 'Child Poverty'. 'Wot no Playstations?' You really have no idea do you ? Child poverty is real, and it hurts those who are least able to do anything about it. - extended schools - 42,000 more teachers - the best-ever exam results in schools and the worst-educated teenagers Are any of the children in your family group of school age ? What is their experience ? - Education Maintenance Allowances - record numbers of students. Scrapping of student grants (except for Scotland) Although I agree with your point, it's hardly a rebuttal of the OP - a doubling of apprenticeships Where? Well, my eldest son is on one, and there is another also at his firm, so in answer to your question - Fleetwood :-) - a Child Trust Fund for every newborn child - Sure Start children’s centres - free nursery places ( There seem to be more that you accept than you take issue with ) - Child Tax Credits. Complication of the tax system Fairer system for all. Again, you don't rebut the point, and I think there are much better examples of how complicated the tax system is, especially in finding loopholes so that Tory mandarins and rich buisinessmen can avoid paying their dues. 　

As you are using the plural "wars", could you list them, remember - just the ILLEGAL ones, ( and let's concede there may be a semantic argument over Iraq ).

Aztec

Gorillaz

Phil Oakley

We have a long way to go before we are like Greece, that isn't to say there isn't some nasty medicine needed.

No, but predictably the politicos are already relapsing into self-interest & power-grabbing.

You're the wrong gender - ( allegedly )

Used to be the HeadMaster's study when I was at KES.

Clegg actually said that the party with the biggest mandate in terms of %vote and #seats SHOULD have the right to try to form a Government. He was very careful with what he didn't say, despite how some tory rags misquoted him. And, unfortunately for DC, the constitution is in Gordy's favour, and there is nothing he can do about it.